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The last game i played a LR sat behind a wall, 1 cm of him was visible to the model he gak at, so 1 LC turret peeked from behind the building and he shot his 4 LC shots and bolter shots through one of his side turrets. I'm not sure if i can call that "visible" to the model. So during my turn I could only see less than 50% of the LR, so got 1 more to his 2+ save. I shot a LC, so he had a 4+ save.

Do you play like this or do you check the visibility from the weapon?


Edit: there were no windows on the ruin.

Are you asking to we play RAW or house rule realism?

RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

If you're less than 50% visible, and in terrain. If you're in open ground and obscured, you don't get cover.
So in your case, it depends on where the LR was standing (behind a wall isn't sufficient in itself).

fresus wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

If you're less than 50% visible, and in terrain. If you're in open ground and obscured, you don't get cover.
So in your case, it depends on where the LR was standing (behind a wall isn't sufficient in itself).

Penguin was replying to the second half of the quoted response. And is only a little wrong. You get cover bonus for being at least 50% obscured behind a ruin(if you are non-infantry). Which is 50% or more(described scenario is definitely more than).

Yes, vehicles shoot all guns out of any single point. There is still some question on determining los. "Behind the model" is definitely "in relation to the target"; but we cannot be sure where behind the firing model to look. If it is any point "behind" then yes the barrel if a lascannon sticking out from behind a ruin will let to target perpendicular or at a more oblique angle starting that "behind" los line far from the bulk of the vehicle. The other possibility is that it is from "behind" the bulk of the model; which would prevent shenanigans but still fail with realism where a whole sponson is sticking out and could clearly draw los doen the barrels as in days of yore(2 weeks ago, officially) .

Remember that if he can see you to shoot, you can see him to shoot back.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

Only if you're INSIDE a terrain feature. Just being obscured doesn't do anything.

To receive a cover save on a non-infantry unit, the following conditions must be true:

1. The OPTIONAL battlefield terrain rules must be in effect
2. The model must be 50% obscured by the ruin from the point of view of the shooter

Why is this optional? It's not in the core rules. In the description for matched play, the only thing that is mentioned is that the missions are designed for battle-forged armies.

I've noticed people tend to use this "50% rule" like it's mandatory RAW, but it isn't. Technically, RAW, a model has to be ON or INSIDE the terrain, unless the optional battlefield terrain rules are in effect, which include gas pipes exploding when used as cover and imperial models getting a +1 to leadership when near imperial statues.

EDIT: I believe the intent of this was to stop people from bickering in open and narrative games about what constitutes 50% of their models, and maybe just relax and have a good time.

One thing to remember with 'ruin' GW wrote it with their plastic city of death terrain in mind (which do not have a base) so it is 50% obscured from it for cover

in the custom terrain section they mention adding bases to the ruin and 'house ruling' that inf in that base area benefit from cover.

basically if it isn't GW terrain you can make up any rule you want for it..

Even the 50% if behind a ruin is still ambiguous because where are you drawing that LOS from?

If the land raider is 50% behind cover when being shot at, isn't what ever target it is shooting at also 50% behind cover? Since Los is measure from the "model" not the "weapon"?

sultansean wrote:
Even the 50% if behind a ruin is still ambiguous because where are you drawing that LOS from?

If the land raider is 50% behind cover when being shot at, isn't what ever target it is shooting at also 50% behind cover? Since Los is measure from the "model" not the "weapon"?

No.. because if one is against a wall and the other isn't.. the one against the wall is covered from the one that isn't.. but the one on the wall can pull clear los

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

Only if you're INSIDE a terrain feature. Just being obscured doesn't do anything.

Re-read ruins. Infantry is just inside(100% of unit at least partially in). Non-infantry is 50% obscurred by from pov of shooter.

Re-read ruins. Infantry is just inside(100% of unit at least partially in). Non-infantry is 50% obscurred by from pov of shooter.

"INFANTRY units that are on a ruin receive the benefit of cover. Other units only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit"

I would say it could be argued that other units have to be on the ruin and 50% covered. Does the first sentence relate to the second? The use of the word "only" makes it seem like it does.

I'm leaning toward not using the Battlefield Terrain rules, because they are ambiguous and require knowledge of previous editions that I don't have.

like:
- what is "the point of view of the shooting unit"? Is it from the weapon? The whole model? any part of the model? In the Core rules it says "visible to the shooting model" so do I measure from its eyes?
- "a model can see through other models in its own unit" by extension it can't see through other models in other units, What does that mean? There might be space between a models legs but is that seeing "through it"
- how can I possibly measure 50% looking across a 28mm table top?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

fresus wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAW all of the guns can shoot from any part of the vehicle and you don't get a covet save from being behind a building.

You do get a cover save for being less than 50% visible.

If you're less than 50% visible, and in terrain. If you're in open ground and obscured, you don't get cover.
So in your case, it depends on where the LR was standing (behind a wall isn't sufficient in itself).

Penguin was replying to the second half of the quoted response. And is only a little wrong. You get cover bonus for being at least 50% obscured behind a ruin(if you are non-infantry). Which is 50% or more(described scenario is definitely more than).

Yes, vehicles shoot all guns out of any single point. There is still some question on determining los. "Behind the model" is definitely "in relation to the target"; but we cannot be sure where behind the firing model to look. If it is any point "behind" then yes the barrel if a lascannon sticking out from behind a ruin will let to target perpendicular or at a more oblique angle starting that "behind" los line far from the bulk of the vehicle. The other possibility is that it is from "behind" the bulk of the model; which would prevent shenanigans but still fail with realism where a whole sponson is sticking out and could clearly draw los doen the barrels as in days of yore(2 weeks ago, officially) .

FAQ:
Q. Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters etc.) gain the benefit of cover from woods, ruins etc. if they are at least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain but are not actually on or within it? A. No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:
• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.
• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).

GW clarified their intention, it was not what I had expected.

I am not vexed by this.