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Made in us
Student Curious About Xenos




Ok guys, so here's the deal:

In the back of Index Imperium 2, an astra militarum infantry squad is labeled as consisting of exactly 10 models, with each model costing X [not allowed to post the actual cost here] points. As such an unupgraded squad will cost 10X points. However, infantry squads have the option of having two guardsmen form a heavy weapons team. Now if we look at the points cost for a full heavy weapons SQUAD, we find that each model (aka, each of the 3 constituent heavy weapon teams) is also X points.

An astra militarum infantry squad upgraded with a heavy weapon squad empirically consists of 9 models.

So heres my question: How many points (without the actual weapon cost included) is an astra militarum infantry squad upgraded to have a heavy weapon base? Is it 9X because it contains 9 models costing X points each? Or is it 10X points because the appendix labels the squad as consisting of exactly 10 models costing X points each?


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Made in gb
Norn Queen






That's a good question.

I think that you pay the points for 10 guardsmen (since the unit size is a fixed number, you can't take any less) and replace 2 with the single Heavy Weapons team model since you'd need to have paid for two guardsmen in the first place to be able to replace them. It's poorly worded and GW's attempt to force everyone to use power levels by making points costs all but impossible to use without computerised assistance is a reason.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 01:25:59


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's not clear to me that the squad sizes in the appendix have any rules meaning at all. I have yet to see a rule that refers to them -- rules that refer to unit sizes instead say to look at the unit's data card. This would not be the only entry where the unit card conflicts with the appendix.

I think the clear intent is that you pay for 10 models and then 2 Guardsmen "form" a HWT. I think that RAW it's only a 9 model squad and the HWT is a kind of "Unit Champion" that has better characteristics than the other models, so the HWT only costs the same as any other Guardsman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 01:25:45


 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

Dionysodorus wrote:
It's not clear to me that the squad sizes in the appendix have any rules meaning at all. I have yet to see a rule that refers to them -- rules that refer to unit sizes instead say to look at the unit's data card. This would not be the only entry where the unit card conflicts with the appendix.

I think the clear intent is that you pay for 10 models and then 2 Guardsmen "form" a HWT. I think that RAW it's only a 9 model squad and the HWT is a kind of "Unit Champion" that has better characteristics than the other models, so the HWT only costs the same as any other Guardsman.


The odd thing is that the HWT costs the same as a single guardsman while its basically one guardsman with a lasrifle and one with a heavy weapon. And you can fire both. I believe they meant that the hwt in a squad should cost as much as the two guardsmen it replaces. Otherwise please answer one question: how much is a Veteran HWT?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




nekooni wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
It's not clear to me that the squad sizes in the appendix have any rules meaning at all. I have yet to see a rule that refers to them -- rules that refer to unit sizes instead say to look at the unit's data card. This would not be the only entry where the unit card conflicts with the appendix.

I think the clear intent is that you pay for 10 models and then 2 Guardsmen "form" a HWT. I think that RAW it's only a 9 model squad and the HWT is a kind of "Unit Champion" that has better characteristics than the other models, so the HWT only costs the same as any other Guardsman.


The odd thing is that the HWT costs the same as a single guardsman while its basically one guardsman with a lasrifle and one with a heavy weapon. And you can fire both. I believe they meant that the hwt in a squad should cost as much as the two guardsmen it replaces. Otherwise please answer one question: how much is a Veteran HWT?

I don't see where the Heavy Weapons Team in an infantry squad is armed with lasguns. The unit card is clear -- only the Guardsmen have lasguns. There's certainly nothing there saying that the HWT has only one lasgun.

There does not appear to be such a thing as a Veteran Heavy Weapons Team. There is a "Veteran Weapons Team" -- is that what you're talking about? It appears to be a sort of "Unit Champion" for the Veterans unit (see the rules for Unit Champions on p138 of the index). Such models "have the same points cost as the other models in their unit". So for a Veterans unit that would be 6 points, plus its heavy weapon. I don't really understand why you had to ask that question since I'm applying exactly the same method I used for the infantry squad.

But yes, like I said in the post you quoted, I think that the intention is that the HWT in an infantry squad should cost what two Guardsmen do, and I agree with you that probably they are supposed to be equipped the same as the HWTs in the Heavy Weapons Squad unit. The data card doesn't say that, though. That said, it's odd that even the Heavy Weapons Squad unit is priced at 4 points per model (and the appendix is correct in this case that this is a 3 model unit) for Heavy Weapons Teams.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






UK

I was just about to start a new thread to ask this question, but I will necro this one instead...

If I take a guardsman squad with a lascannon, is that

(10 x 4) + 20 = 60
or, as there are only 9 "models" in the unit
(9 x 4) + 20 = 56

I am leaning towards it being 56, but it's not clear.

   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

You buy 10 Guardsmen. Two of them set up on the same base as a single model. But the instructions don't tell you to replace or anything, just form. So it's (10x4)+20=60. You haven't subtracted any Guardsmen from the unit.

That HWT would also have 2x lasguns and a lascannon, since heavy weapons don't replace the lasgun (at least from what I saw).

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Elric Greywolf wrote:
That HWT would also have 2x lasguns and a lascannon, since heavy weapons don't replace the lasgun (at least from what I saw).
Whereas each heavy weapon team in the Heavy Weapon Squad only has a single lasgun, rather than two.

GW really ought to clarify this in a FAQ.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Denmark

Actually RAW, I don't think the HWT has any lasguns at all. It says 'each Guardsman is armed with a lasgun and frag granades'. The HWT isen't a Guardsmen, it's a seperate model now, called a "Heavy Weapons Team".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 00:25:51


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Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

The rules for the HWT in Infantry Squads are very badly defined.
1) On one hand, the unit entry tells you two Guardsmen form the HWT
2) On another hand, the rules say you pay points only for the models you field, which is 9 in a unit with a HWT
3) On yet another hand, that means you have a understrength unit since you only have 9 models
4) And the rules tell you that Unit Champions have the same cost as other models in the unit, but that is the Sergeant not the HWT. So what is the cost of the HWT?
5) Also, when you compare to the Heavy Weapons Squad, the cost of the HWT is the same as one Guardsman

Then there is the Lasgun question. Does an Infantry Squad HWT have no Lasgun (only Guardsman have Lasguns), 1 Lasgun like the HWT in a Heavy Weapons Squad, or 2 Lasguns since two Guardsmen form the HWT?

And let's not even discuss the Veteran Heavy Weapons Team.
   
 
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