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So, having given the new 8th Edition some chance, it personally does not satisfy. I can see the appeal, but I would rather try to fix the previous edition into something that I can really appreciate. While this is no doubt a daunting task, here's hoping it goes well.
Naturally, I'm starting with the basic game rules. To that end, here's what I have so far.
Spoiler:
Warhammer 40k Draft House Rules
Generating Warlord Traits: After selecting your Warlord, you must choose whether or not your Warlord will generate their Trait from the Rulebook or from their Codex.
Rulebook: Roll a die, then apply that result to any of the Tables available, rerolling as permissible by Detachments and etc.
Codex: Select the Warlord Trait of your choice from the Table.
Generating Psychic Powers: Largely unchanged, with several small alterations by faction:
Imperium: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology. Inquisitors count as Grey Knights for the purpose of activating Sanctic Daemonlogy powers.
Eldar: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology.
Chaos Space Marines: Psykers with Marks of Chaos are no longer required to generate any of their powers from the Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch tables, and may generate all of their powers from such tables if they so choose. Remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules.
Chaos Daemons: Since Daemons are not forced to generate any of their Psychic Powers from their Gods' Tables, they simple remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules.
Tyranids: Gain access to Biomancy in addition to their Powers of the Hive Mind table. Add to Shadow in the Warp that all enemies attempting to Manifest a Warp Charge within range does so at -1 (so generally a 5+).
Orks: Lose access to both Daemonology tables, gain access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis.
Maelstrom of War Objectives:
Whenever an Objective is drawn that is incapable of being accomplished given the current board-state (enemy doesn't have a Psyker, their Warlord is already dead, etc.) may be immediately discarded and replaced with a new objective.
Whenever an Objective would grant d3 Victory Points, it grants 3 instead.
Entering From Deep Strike/Outflank/Reserves: Units which enter the game from reserves of any type are allowed a single phase of their choice upon entry: Move/Psychic/Shooting/Assault. The models are placed as they usually would be on the table, and activated during the appropriate phase.
Movement Phase (No changes yet)
Shooting Phase Run moves are always 6”, rules that allow a re-roll to Run moves instead add 3” instead.
Assault Phase Charges are 6” plus 1d6”, rules that allow re-roll of both dice (a. la. Fleet) add 3” instead, rules that re-roll one die are unchanged in that they allow a re-roll of the 1d6.
If you'd be so kind, comments on these changes as well as other issues that require modification would be greatly appreciated. I seem to remember that a master list of necessary changes for 7th was given somewhere on Dakka, but I've since lost track of where that is.
Other alterations that I am considering include:
As per 8th edition and Warhammer Fantasy, changing vehicles to share the same primary statline as other models.
Reintroducing the Move statistic, as well as flat WS and BS a la 8th.
Adding a maximum to the number of Warp Charges an army may generate.
Including many of the ITC FAQ rulings; to do this I need to track down the ITC's 7th Ed. FAQ, which I was having some trouble finding.
The goal here is, more than anything else, making what I would consider to be the best version of Warhammer 40k - obviously there will be bias involved there, so any aid Dakka can offer would be great.
EDIT: Most up to date rules below, along with individual army ideas.
Warhammer 40k Draft House Rules
Spoiler:
Comparative Statistics Chart This chart is used whenever two characteristics are being compared, such as Strength versus Toughness, or Weapon Skill versus Weapon Skill in close combat. Psychic Powers and Army Specific Special Rules will also make use of this chart, generally with the terminology “make a test for () versus ()”.
Unit Facings No longer will vehicles be the only models that must concern themselves with facing—to some extent, all models must do so. However, “organic” creatures (meaning most non-vehicle entities) only having two facings, following this diagram with their base:
The green section denotes the Front Arc of the model, while the red denotes the Rear Arc. A model may only target enemies in their Front Arc with their ranged weapons, Psychic Powers, and so on. Models may only fire Overwatch against assaults that originate from that models Front Arc.
For models that possess non-round bases, the same general principle holds (Front Arc and Rear Arc). Some models have particular facings, such as the Tyranid Tyrannocite (which has no Rear Arc).
Generating Warlord Traits: After selecting your Warlord, you must choose whether or not your Warlord will generate their Trait from the Rulebook or from their Codex. In either case, you may simple select the Trait that your Warlord will use—though this must be recorded on your Army Sheet.
Generating Psychic Powers: Largely unchanged, with several small alterations by faction:
Imperium Faction: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology. Inquisitors count as Grey Knights for the purpose of activating Sanctic Daemonlogy powers.
Eldar: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology.
Chaos Space Marines: Psykers with Marks of Chaos are no longer required to generate any of their powers from the Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch tables, and may generate all of their powers from such tables if they so choose with +1 to Manifest. Remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules.
Chaos Daemons: Since Daemons are not forced to generate any of their Psychic Powers from their Gods' Tables, they simple remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules. They gain the same +1 to Manifest as per Chaos Space Marines with their God-oriented Disciplines.
Tyranids: Gain access to Biomancy in addition to their Powers of the Hive Mind table. Add to Shadow in the Warp that all enemies attempting to Manifest a Warp Charge within range does so at -1 (so generally a 5+).
Orks: Lose access to both Daemonology tables, gain access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis.
Maelstrom of War Objectives: Whenever an Objective is drawn that is incapable of being accomplished given the current board-state (enemy doesn't have a Psyker, their Warlord is already dead, etc.) may be immediately discarded and replaced with a new objective.
Entering From Deep Strike/Outflank/Reserves: Units which enter the game from reserves of any type are allowed a single phase of their choice upon entry: Move/Psychic/Shooting/Assault. The models are placed as they usually would be on the table, and activated during the appropriate phase.
Movement Phase Difficult Terrain reduces a models Move characteristic by half (for all movement: Move/Run/Assault/etc.).
Any unit that is not Falling Back may choose to move off your Table Edge and enter Ongoing Reserves.
Psychic Phase When generating Warp Charges, each Psyker in your army generates their own unique pool that is available only to them—which is equal to 1 + Mastery Level. Rules regarding the number of Powers a Psyker may attempt to Manifest, and so on, remain the same (with the following exception).
Deny the Witch Attempting to dispel the powers being generated by an enemy Psyker now requires a Pysker-equivalent of your own—the check is still the same, with the Denying player generating dice equal to their Mastery Level.
The Denying Psyker may attempt to dispel the powers of enemy Psykers within 24” (Psychic Hood adds 6”), with rolls of 6s negating successfully Manifested dice. Modifiers to this roll follow the same rules as before, with the exception of Adamantium Will—which will require some changing.
Shooting Phase Run moves are always Move; see USR changes.
All units can Split Fire based upon Weapon Groups, i.e. all weapons within a squad must be fired at the same target.
Look Out, Sir! may only be used by Independent Characters, and may allocate wounds to models of the same Unit Type only as the original target.
Assault Phase Charges are 6” plus Move; on a failed charge the unit moves half their Move towards their target still.
Charging through Difficult Terrain is always a Disorded Charge.
Morale Units always Fall Back their full Move characteristic.
Vehicle Damage Tables As per 7th Edition, Glancing Hits remove a single Hull Point from the target vehicle. However, the Vehicle Damage Table from Penetrating Hits is now slightly different:
Certain weapons receive a bonus to their rolls on the Vehicle Damage Table:
Other Changes:
Unit Types exist as collections of USRs, and as “targets” for characterizing groups of models for USRs.
If a model/unit has in its profile a different version of any USRs provided by its Unit Type, use that instead.
Infantry – The ubiquitous standard; no USRs
Artillery – Man-Packed Gun (weapon), Stealth [II]
Beasts & Cavalry – Fleet [12”]
Jump Units – Airborne, Bulky [2], Deep Strike, Impact Hits [1]
Jetpack Units – Airborne, Bulky [2], Deep Strike, Relentless
Monstrous Creatures – Impeded [Embark], Fire Control [1], Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless
Flying Monstrous Creatures – Airborne [High Flying], Impeded [Embark], Deep Strike, Fire Control [1], Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Skyfire, Swift [1], Vector Strike [1]
Gargantuan Creatures – Impeded [Embark], Fire Control [1], Fearless, Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Stomp [1], Unstoppable Behemoth
Gargantuan Flying Gargantuan – Airborne [High Flying], Impeded [Embark], Deep Strike, Fire Control [1], Fearless, Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Skyfire, Stomp [1], Swift [1], Unstoppable Behemoth, Vector Strike [1]
Vehicles
Universal Special Rules
Adamantium Will [+X] – Units containing at least one model with this Special Rule provide a +X bonus to Deny the Witch tests against Psychic Powers targeting them. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the highest.
Airborne – Models with this Special Rule may move over other models and terrain freely.
If an Airborne model begins or ends its move in Difficult Terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Furthermore, Airborne models may move over Impassable Terrain and may end their move on top of Impassible Terrain if the model is physically capable of doing so—in which case they treat the Impassable Terrain as Dangerous Terrain instead.
High Flying – Some Airborne models will fly much higher than others above the battlefield, outside the reach of most conventional weaponry. Models that have the Airborne (High Flying) Special Rule may choose at the start of the Movement Phase to be High Flying rather than simply Airborne until the next friendly Movement Phase.
When a model is High Flying, it may move up to double its Movement characteristic, but must move at least its Movement characteristic. This movement must be in a straight line—though the High Flying model may make an up to 90° pivot before beginning this movement.
High Flying models can never Fall Back, nor can they charge/be charged (or Tank Shocked). Otherwise, High Flying models follow all the same rules as Airborne models.
Models that are High Flying are difficult to hit, and as such shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model/weapon has the Skyfire Special Rule (see below). Non-vehicle models with the High Flying special rule may be Grounded—at the end of any Phase where the High Flying model suffers one or more unsaved wounds, it must take a Grounding Test.
On a d6 roll of 3+, the Grounding Test is passed and the High Flying model maintains control with no further effect. If the test is failed, the High Flying model comes crashing down to the grounded suffers a Strength 9 automatic hit with no armor or cover saves allowed. Furthermore, the model is no longer treated as High Flying, and loses all benefits (and penalties) of choosing to do so. At the start of the controlling players next Movement Phase, the model may once again resume High Flying.
And They Shall Know No Fear – (unchanged)
Aura (range) [benefit] – Friendly units with at least one model within the (range) value of the base/Hull of a model with this Special Rule gain the listed [benefit].
Assault Vehicle – (unchanged)
Barrage – (unchanged)
Blast – (unchanged)
Bulky [X] – A model with this Special Rules occupies X slots of Transport Capacity, rather than 1.
Charge Bonus [+X (characteristic)] – On the turn that a model with this Special Rule charges, it gains a +X bonus to the listed (characteristic).
Counter Attack – (unchanged)
Daemon – A model with this Special Rule have a 5+ Invulnerable Save, and is considered to be a Daemon which has particular rule interactions elsewhere.
Deep Strike – (see above; Reserves) Deep Strike mishaps are always Delayed; landing in Difficult Terrain causes Dangerous Terrain checks on Deep Striking unit.
Destroyer Weapons – Hits caused by weapons with this Special Rule will always successfully wound their target and will always successfully Penetrate their target. Furthermore, successful Invulnerable Saves must be rerolled against wounds inflicted by Destroyer Weapons.
Eternal Warrior – (unchanged)
Ferocious [+X] – Units that contain at least one model with this Special Rule gain a +X bonus to Combat Resolution and Sweeping Advances. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the highest.
Fearless – (unchanged)
Feel No Pain – (unchanged)
Fire Control [X] – A model with this Special Rule may fire X additional weapons than normal during the Shooting Phase.
Fleet [X”] – Models with this Special Rule move the bracketed value when Running/Turbo-Boosting/Flat Out, rather than their Movement characteristic. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the lowest.
Graviton – The roll needed To Wound when firing a weapon with this Special Rule is always equal to the Armor Save of the target. This Special Rule has no effect on vehicles, though many Graviton weapons also have Haywire (see below).
Gets Hot – (unchanged)
Hatred (target) – A models with this Special Rule must reroll all failed To Hit rolls in close combat against the (target) of their hatred.
Haywire [X+] – When a model/weapon with this Special Rule hits a vehicle, it always Glances on a fixed number (in brackets) unless a lower result would be required. Note that such weapons may potentially Penetrate their target, in which case that result would replace the Glancing Hit.
Unless otherwise stated, Haywire weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1. The Haywire Special Rule has no effect against non-vehicles.
High Caliber [X] – Unsaved wounds caused by weapons with this Special Rule remove X wounds from their target rather than only 1. Additionally, Penetrating Hits caused by weapons with this Special Rule remove X Hull Point from their target, rather than 1.
Hit & Run – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule that is Locked in Combat may attempt to leave close combat at the end of any Assault Phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an Initiative test.
If the test is failed, nothing happens and the models remain locked in the fight.
If the test is passed, choose a direction and move the models their Move characteristic in that direction. If this distance is not sufficient to allow the entire unit to move over 1” away from all the enemy models, the unit is considered to still be Locked in Combat. Otherwise, the combat has ended, and no Sweeping Advances nor Consolidation moves are made.
Note that Hit & Run moves follow the normal rules for Difficult and Dangerous Terrain. Hit & Run moves may not be used to move into base or hull contact with enemy units; models instead stop 1” away. If there are units with this Special Rule both sides of a close combat, roll-off to determine who goes first then alternate disengaging them. Notice that you may not disengage from combat if your enemy left first, i.e. there is no one remaining in combat to Hit & Run from!
(Unit Type) Hunter – A unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule rerolls all failed To Wound/Armor Penetration rolls against the listed (Unit Type). For example, Monstrous Creature Hunters would reroll all failed To Wound rolls against Monstrous Creatures.
Against vehicles, this Special Rule may be used to reroll Glancing Hits in an attempt to instead get a Penetrating Hit—in this case the second result must be kept, even if worse (as for all rerolls).
Ignores Cover – (unchanged)
Impact Hits [X] – If a model with this Special Rule ends its charge move in base or hull contact with an enemy model or building, it makes X additional attacks that hit automatically and are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength with AP null unless otherwise stated. These attacks do not benefit from any of the model’s other Special Rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned, Rending, etc.) unless otherwise stated.
These attacks are resolved directly before the Fight Subphase, and do not grant the model an additional Pile In move. If a model with this Special Rule charges a building/vehicle, the hits are resolved against the Armor Value of the facing the charging model is in contact with.
Impeded (action) – A models with this Special Rule may never undertake the listed (action), voluntarily or otherwise. For example, a model that has the Impeded (Run) Special Rule could not Run during the Shooting Phase.
Instant Death – (unchanged)
Independent Character – (unchanged)
Infiltrate – (unchanged; note Outflank changes)
It Will Not Die – (unchanged)
Lance – (unchanged)
Man-Packed Gun (weapon) – A model with this Special Rule represents the physical gun that is being operated by an artillery crew. The Man-Packed Gun model does not have statistics, but the model does occupy space and exist on the board nonetheless, moving with the crew (and taking up a space in transports). Once all the crew has been removed from the game the gun is removed as well.
The (weapon) mounted on the Man-Packed Gun is fired by its crew, for all intents and purposes as though the crew were equipped with the weapon. One crew member must be within 2” of the Man-Packed Gun to operate it—the rest of the crew may fire their other weapons as normal.
The crew of a Man-Packed Gun may not charge, nor may the Man-Packed Gun itself be fired during Overwatch.
Master-Crafted – (unchanged)
Massive – Models with this Special Rule may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise.
Furthermore, due to their prodigious size, models with this Special Rule tend to be very difficult to kill. As a battle progresses they may survive debilitating injuries that would slay any weaker creature, though these injuries will still impede them. When a model with the Massive Special Rule is reduced to one half its starting wounds or less, its Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, and Attacks are all reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1.
Melta – (unchanged)
Miasma (range) [detriment] – Enemy units with at least one model within the (range) value of the base/Hull of a model with this Special Rule suffer the listed [detriment].
Move Through Cover – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule ignores the distance penalties for Move/Run/Assault moves through Difficult Terrain.
Night Vision – (unchanged)
One Use Only/One Shot Only – (unchanged)
Outflank – During deployment, players can declare that any unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player may choose either their own table edge, or the table edge to their left/right. The Outflanking models then move onto the table from that table edge as described for other Reserves.
If a unit with Outflank deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Outflank along with their Transport.
Pinning – (unchanged)
Poisoned [X+] – When a model/weapon with this Special Rule hits, it always wounds on a fixed number (in brackets) unless a lower result would be required.
Unless otherwise stated, Poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1. The Poisoned Special Rule has no effect against vehicles.
Precision Shots/Precision Strikes – (unchanged)
Preferred Enemy (target) – (unchanged, though I really want to find an excuse to get rid of this USR)
Psyker [Mastery Level X] – (unchanged)
Brotherhood of Psykers – (unchanged)
Force – (unchanged)
Psychic Pilot – (unchanged)
Rampage [X] – (unchanged)
Relentless – (unchanged)
Rending – For each To Wound roll of a 6+ made by a model/weapon with this Special Rule, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of its Toughness. Those Wounds are resolved at AP 2.
Against vehicles, each Armor Penetration roll of a 6+ adds an additional +1 to the total. These hits are resolved at AP 2.
Scout – (unchanged; note Outflank changes)
Skyfire – (unchanged)
Stealth [X+] (terrain) – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule receives an X+ Cover Save against shooting attacks.
This Special Rule is often presented as pertaining only to a specific terrain type, such as Stealth [X+] (Woods) or Stealth [X+] (Ruins). If this is the case, the unit only gains the benefit whilst it is in the terrain of the specified type.
Stomp [X] – Models with this Special Rule that are engaged in combat may make a number (X) of special attacks called Stomps, which are made in addition to their regular attacks. Stomp attacks are always resolved at the Initiative 1 step. Stomps do not grant the additional Pile In moves.
Stomps are resolved by placing the 3” Blast so that it is touching, but not over, the base/hull of the Stomping model. Each model underneath the 3” Blast takes a single Strength 6 AP 4 automatic hit.
If the Stomping model is capable of making more than a single Stomp attack, then each subsequent attack is resolved in the same manner—however the 3” Blast must be placed within 3” of wherever the previous Stomp was placed. Note that the Stomping model itself does not move.
Casualties caused by Stomps count towards Combat Resolution. In addition, the Stomping model may not Stomp units that it is not currently engaged in combat with; its attention is focused on the enemy it is presently fighting.
Stubborn – (unchanged)
Swarm – If a model with this Special Rule suffers an unsaved wound from a Blast (any size) or Template, each unsaved wound is multiplied to 2 unsaved wounds instead unless that wound has the Instant Death Special Rule.
Swift [X+] – A model with this Special Rule receives an X+ Cover Save against shooting attacks, provided in the preceding friendly Movement Phase the model was moved its entire Move characteristic.
Template Weapons – (unchanged)
Terrain Master – A unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
Torrent – (unchanged)
Twin-Linked – (unchanged)
Unstoppable Behemoth – Unsaved wounds with the Instant Death Special Rule do not reduce models with this Special Rule to 0 wounds. Furthermore effects that would destroy/remove from play models with this Special Rule, without removing its last wound, do not. Instead, such attacks inflict +1 more wound than the amount they otherwise would—generally 2 wounds in total.
In addition, attacks with the Poisoned [X+] Special Rule will only cause a wound on a roll of 6+ against models with the Unstoppable Behemoth Special Rule, unless the attack’s Strength would cause a Wound on a lower result.
Unstoppable Machine – Effects that would destroy/remove from play models with this Special Rule, without removing its last Hull Point, do not. Instead, such attacks remove +1 more Hull Points than they normally would—generally 2 Hull Points in total.
In addition, attacks with the Haywire [X+] Special Rule will only cause a Glance Hit on a roll of 6+ against models with the Unstoppable Behemoth Special Rule, unless the attack’s Strength would cause a Glancing/Penetrating Hit on a lower result.
Unwieldy – (unchanged)
Vector Strikes [X] – At the end of the Movement Phase, nominate one enemy unit not Locked in Combat or one building that the Vector Striking model has moved over that turn. That unit takes X automatic hits at the Vector Striking model’s unmodified strength and AP null, unless otherwise stated. These attacks do not benefit from any of the model’s other Special Rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned, Rending, etc.) unless otherwise stated.
Against buildings/vehicles these hits are resolved against the target’s Side Armor.
Note that models incapable of moving over enemy units will receive no benefit from the Vector Strike Special Rule. Furthermore, the Vector Striking unit counts as having fired one weapon in its following Shooting Phase. However, any additional weapons it may fire that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike.
Vortex – (unchanged)
Orks
Spoiler:
Since this is my personal army, help in keeping them in line would be especially appreciated. I don't want my bias to make them too powerful.
‘Ere We Go! – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may reroll failed charges.
Mob Rule – A unit composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may always choose to replace their Leadership Characteristic with the number of models remaining in the unit, to a maximum of 10.
If the unit has 11 or more models remaining, then it gain the Fearless Special Rule as well.
Ramshackle – Once per game, at the beginning of the Ork player’s turn, a vehicle with this Special Rule may choose to remove a single Vehicle Damage Condition at the expense of losing a single Hull Point. The crew has jettisoned the extraneous pieces causing the problem! A vehicle may make use of this ability to destroy itself, in which case the enemy player receives Victory Points as per the Mission Rules—vehicles destroyed in this manner always become Wrecks.
Waaagh! – Once per game, at the start of any of your turns after the first, you may declare a Waaagh! Until the beginning of your following turn all friendly units made up entirely of models with the ‘Ere We Go! Special Rule immediately gain the following benefits:
They may Charge in the Assault Phase even if they Ran in the Shooting Phase
They add +1 to all Feel No Pain checks
They add +1 to Manifest Warp Charges for Powers of the Waaagh! Disciplines
Units with the Impeded (Run) Special Rule replace it with the Impact Hits [1] Special Rule
In addition, Ork units/models gain +1 Strength, but lose Furious Charge. I also like the idea of orks losing their 6+ armor for FNP(6+), with Painboys boosting that. There should be two Powers of the Waaagh! Disciplines: Brutal but Kunnin' and Kunnin' but Brutal. I had a thread about these ideas before, so it might seem familiar if you saw that.
Sisters of Battle
Spoiler:
I really like the old idea of Faith Points, so bringing that back with a more streamlined system would be neat. I'd also like to work in some kind of a "Blessing" rule as per the old Brettonia "Blessing of the Lady" though I haven't finagled a way to make that work yet. Here's what I have so far:
Abhorrence of the Impure [X] – A model with this Special Rule may attempt to Deny the Witch, despite not being a Psyker. During the enemy Psychic Phase, this model generates X Warp Charges which may be used to Deny the Witch, which will succeed on rolls of 5+.
Acts of Faith – A unit composed entirely of models with the Acts of Faith Special Rule may attempt to beseech the Emperor for aid, taking the form of an Act of Faith. This may be attempted at the beginning of either players’ turn; the effects of which will last until the end of that turn.
Attempting an Act of Faith requires a successful Leadership check, and remove a certain number of Faith Points from the Faith Pool (see the Faithful [X] Special Rule). The following Acts of Faith are available to all units with the Acts of Faith Special Rule, though some units have access to their own unique Acts:
The Passion – [1] If successful, the unit immediately regroups and may act as normal during the ensuing turn. The unit has the Stubborn Special Rule. If the unit already had the Stubborn Special Rule, it gains the Fearless Special Rule instead.
Hand of the Emperor – [1] (some CC buff, but deciding what is the question)
Light of the Emperor – [1] (ranged buff, alternate of Hand)
Faithful [X] – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule have a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and add X Faith Points to the Sisters of Battle’s Faith Pool at the start of the game.
Martyrdom [X] – Models with this Special Rule must always Issue and Accept Challenges in close combat, if possible.
When a model with this Special Rule loses its last wound, all friendly units composed entirely of models with the Faithful [X] Special Rule automatically succeed all Morale/Pinning tests until the end of the next Sisters of Battle turn. Additionally, +X Faith Points are added to the Faith Pool.
I'd like to give Abhorrence... to Priests as well as another HQ option (maybe called a Sanctifier/Purifier?) who can use Faith Points to burn enemies with holy fire. I'd also like to give them a weaker non-Sister Troops option, such as Ecclesiastical Militia/Fanatics. I'll need some more ideas for all this.
Grey Knights
Spoiler:
Only rule I have so far:
Daemonbane – Models with this Special Rule will always hit a model with the Daemon Special Rule on a 6+ in close combat, unless a lesser result would be required. Note that this means models with this Special Rule will never automatically fail to hit such targets in close combat.
Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
I'm of the opinion that CSM require a massive overhaul not just in rules but in concept too. CSM should be exceptionally skilled veterans, and very difficult to unnerve, due to their time in the warp. However, they should always be outnumbered (even by normal Space Marines), and be working with very old and dilapidated tech. As such, they would not have the best gear, but have the best guys.
Hatred (Space Marines)
Millennia of Loathing – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may choose to automatically succeed or fail any Morale checks they are called upon to make. In addition, units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule are not destroyed when caught by a Sweeping Advance, but remain Locked in Combat instead.
Warpspite – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule must choose one of the following three options at the beginning of their turn:
1. Act as normal
2. Relinquish their Movement Phase to fire their weapons twice during the Shooting Phase
3. Relinquish their Movement and Shooting Phase to double their Attacks characteristic until the beginning of the next Chaos Space Marine player turn
These rules aren't perfect, but I think they're moving in the right direction at the very least.
Tyranids
Spoiler:
Instinctual Behavior – Never roll: each "table" has only one result.
Feed – Move toward and attempt to charge closest enemy unit.
Hunt – Go to Ground in Movement Phase, fire at closest enemy unit in Shooting Phase.
Lurk – Move toward closest Table Edge/Terrain in Movement Phase, whichever is closer. May not shoot or charge.
Shadow in the Warp – Miasma[12"] (-1 to Manifest Warp Charges and -3 Leadership (Psykers only))
Synapse – Aura [12"] (Ignore effects of Instinctual Behavior and +1 FNP (providing FNP (6+) base))
A bunch of units also need help (Tyrannofex, Pyrovore, Haruspex, etc.), and I'd like to tone down Flyrants also.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/10 23:48:44
Hey, I support a heavily cleaned-up 7.5 and had a few ideas/how to tweak things. One of the big things I support is "paring down"/cleaning up excess USRs, and fixing a few trouble formations.
Warlord Traits: Interesting. Personally, I'm a fan of just letting your character pick a Warlord Trait, with a "reroll" just granting you a 2nd Trait of choice. Tweak some things accordingly.
Not sure if the other phases themselves need much changing. That said, I would be ok seeing Interceptor removed, and Overwatch turned into an explicit decision rather than a free charge defense: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726180.page
One thing I would recommend is a "universal rule" where any Invulnerable Save cannot be *modified* to better than 3++, unless it explicitly starts off at 2++; Shadow Fields or Ghaz with a Waaagh = yay, a Screamerstar with Grimoire and Cursed Earth = nay. A rerollable 3++ is far more managable than a rerollable 2++! Make Look Out Sir only able to deflect to models within 3" instead of 6" perhaps.
Give every vehicle +2 extra HP, but make vehicle damage mods start at AP 3. Vehicle Destroyed simply removes d3 extra HP, causing an explosion if the vehicle is reduced to 0 HP. Rebalance the game around "high strength" rather than Autocannons/Scatter Lasers. MCs/FMCs have 45* Line of Sight, so no Flyrants shooting Warp Blasts from their bums.
Destroyer Weapons are simply D3 wounds/HP, with a -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves. Deathblow is removed.
You could probably remove Fleet, Dunestrider, Crusader, Supersonic, Fast, etc by just giving each unit two move stats: Move-phase and shoot-phase movements.
Only Centurions get Grav Amps. Grav no longer immobilizes vehicles on 6; it's already Concussive after all!
As for Psi Powers, the bigger issue is making "lots of weak Psykers" matter more than batteries fueling a super-caster like Magnus. I'll get back to you on my notes for this. One thing I would recommend is: Summon is "no-scatter" but placed entirely within 6" of the summoner, and the summoner may not move at all that turn.
I had a few ideas about how to rework certain problem formations too. IMO the biggest 3 offenders were the Aspect Host, Riptide Wing, and Fenrisian Pack. The first two were "awesome benefits with no tax for units you want to take anyway", and the second gave 7th one of its most infamous deathstars.
PS: All non-relic Pistols can use a 5 point discount.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/05 22:17:46
MagicJuggler wrote: Hey, I support a heavily cleaned-up 7.5 and had a few ideas/how to tweak things. One of the big things I support is "paring down"/cleaning up excess USRs, and fixing a few trouble formations.
My thoughts exactly! I really do think that 7th has the potential to be a very good system, but it requires a thorough scrubbing to remove the unnecessary grit.
MagicJuggler wrote: Warlord Traits: Interesting. Personally, I'm a fan of just letting your character pick a Warlord Trait, with a "reroll" just granting you a 2nd Trait of choice. Tweak some things accordingly.
I suppose that could work best, since there really aren't that many egregious Warlord traits. I'd still like to go over them and give a good looking into.
Not a big fan of this, actually: I like that Relics are gifts given/earned by "Your Dudes", and offer an interesting bonus to non-Special Character. What I would prefer is giving each army's relics some tweaks to prevent the same few from always being taken.
Interceptor I'm liable to remove, but Overwatch I'm unsure of - with my allowance of Assaulting after Deep Strike, giving some ability to respond to "unexpected" charges would be beneficial. I think that I would instead keep it strictly 6s to hit, removing instances of improved Overwatch (such as Cognis or Grim Resolve).
MagicJuggler wrote: One thing I would recommend is a "universal rule" where any Invulnerable Save cannot be *modified* to better than 3++, unless it explicitly starts off at 2++; Shadow Fields or Ghaz with a Waaagh = yay, a Screamerstar with Grimoire and Cursed Earth = nay. A rerollable 3++ is far more managable than a rerollable 2++! Make Look Out Sir only able to deflect to models within 3" instead of 6" perhaps.
I do like that, and it seems a fairly logical inclusion.
MagicJuggler wrote: Give every vehicle +2 extra HP, but make vehicle damage mods start at AP 3. Vehicle Destroyed simply removes d3 extra HP, causing an explosion if the vehicle is reduced to 0 HP. Rebalance the game around "high strength" rather than Autocannons/Scatter Lasers. MCs/FMCs have 45* Line of Sight, so no Flyrants shooting Warp Blasts from their bums.
These seem quite reasonable as well. I would like to include some similar rule for Monstrous Creatures, to prevent them from ignoring the detriments of being large and losing important bits.
MagicJuggler wrote: Destroyer Weapons are simply D3 wounds/HP, with a -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves. Deathblow is removed.
I was actually thinking that Destroyer weapons would circumvent the To Wound part of the game -- always wounding/penetrating automatically. Since I would like to consider including multiple wounds as per Fantasy/8th, then Destroyer would keep the mindset that Hit = some amount of damage.
My inclination for Stomp was simply to remove the outlier results -- no more "No Stomps" and no more "Killer Stomp". Just the basic result, the same for which would be carried over to Thunderblitz and similar.
MagicJuggler wrote: You could probably remove Fleet, Dunestrider, Crusader, Supersonic, Fast, etc by just giving each unit two move stats: Move-phase and shoot-phase movements.
I think I'd keep Fleet; under this system it would prove +3" to Run and reroll charges. The rest could probably be done away with, or replaced with a condensed rule that lists their alternate move. For example, the rule Swift would replace all of this -- in a units rules it would give Swift (9") or whatever, which is their Run/Turbo-Boost distance instead of the basic 6".
MagicJuggler wrote: Only Centurions get Grav Amps. Grav no longer immobilizes vehicles on 6; it's already Concussive after all!
Sure, makes sense.
MagicJuggler wrote: As for Psi Powers, the bigger issue is making "lots of weak Psykers" matter more than batteries fueling a super-caster like Magnus. I'll get back to you on my notes for this. One thing I would recommend is: Summon is "no-scatter" but placed entirely within 6" of the summoner, and the summoner may not move at all that turn.
I haven't bothered to tackle Summoning yet, that's too daunting at the moment.
MagicJuggler wrote: I had a few ideas about how to rework certain problem formations too. IMO the biggest 3 offenders were the Aspect Host, Riptide Wing, and Fenrisian Pack. The first two were "awesome benefits with no tax for units you want to take anyway", and the second gave 7th one of its most infamous deathstars.
Much like Summoning, the Formations are things that I'm going to wait on until I have a solid baseline to work with. Since the game can be played without them, they take a back seat overall.
Colonel Bork wrote: Interceptor I'm liable to remove, but Overwatch I'm unsure of - with my allowance of Assaulting after Deep Strike, giving some ability to respond to "unexpected" charges would be beneficial. I think that I would instead keep it strictly 6s to hit, removing instances of improved Overwatch (such as Cognis or Grim Resolve).
The idea is rather than Interceptor or Overwatch being a "free" round of shooting, it should be a tactical decision. It's not "turn 1" Assaults that are as dangerous, so much as assorted shooting alphastrikes: Grav Skyhammer, massed Warp Spiders, Flyrants, Magnus, etc. I tried to err on a more conservative use of Overwatch, as 2nd-ed's "Interrupt enemy movement whenever you want" was too granular/clunky, so I figured making it trigger on enemy intent to attack would also encourage some interlocking formations (arguably some daisy-chaining but it's potentially rather fluffy nonetheless. Nothing like having a Wyvern stop a charge against your blob Guard!).
Colonel Bork wrote: My inclination for Stomp was simply to remove the outlier results -- no more "No Stomps" and no more "Killer Stomp". Just the basic result, the same for which would be carried over to Thunderblitz and similar.
Fair enough. For Stomp, the Russian Roulette is definitely an issue but the other issue I noticed is that in practice, Stomp was less about crowd control, and more about circumventing Deathstar defenses or serving as an ersatz wave-motion gun. The FAQs further confirmed this, by letting Stomps hit enemies not involved in the melee, and letting it Stomp even it destroyed all its foes in melee! So the idea was: emphasize the crowd control aspect, and de-randomize stomps. (In a pinch, it would let S6 walkers like Dreadnoughts get a single stomp).
Speaking of Assault, personally I would remove Disordered Charge altogether, and maybe have a clause that rather than always striking last through cover, enemy models in cover get +2 Initiative (max 10) when first Charged. While a Marine might get a chance versus a Genestealer, a Fire Warrior won't!
Make Consolidate after Assault ends a flat 6" move. Let Hit and Run be "Consolidate out of an existing melee on a successful Initiative test; the enemy may not Consolidate if this ends the melee". Allow the use of Consolidate, even after assaulting Vehicles. You don't want your Boyz/Gaunts to be flamerbait after attritioning down a Rhino!
Let units assault from a non-assault transport if they disembark before the transport moves, ala 5e.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 12:45:24
Colonel Bork wrote: Interceptor I'm liable to remove, but Overwatch I'm unsure of - with my allowance of Assaulting after Deep Strike, giving some ability to respond to "unexpected" charges would be beneficial. I think that I would instead keep it strictly 6s to hit, removing instances of improved Overwatch (such as Cognis or Grim Resolve).
The idea is rather than Interceptor or Overwatch being a "free" round of shooting, it should be a tactical decision. It's not "turn 1" Assaults that are as dangerous, so much as assorted shooting alphastrikes: Grav Skyhammer, massed Warp Spiders, Flyrants, Magnus, etc. I tried to err on a more conservative use of Overwatch, as 2nd-ed's "Interrupt enemy movement whenever you want" was too granular/clunky, so I figured making it trigger on enemy intent to attack would also encourage some interlocking formations (arguably some daisy-chaining but it's potentially rather fluffy nonetheless. Nothing like having a Wyvern stop a charge against your blob Guard!).
Very interesting, I'll have to give the link you sent another look. The idea of allowing an alternate unit the ability to Overwatch on behalf of another is, at the very least, a fascinating tactical concept.
Colonel Bork wrote: My inclination for Stomp was simply to remove the outlier results -- no more "No Stomps" and no more "Killer Stomp". Just the basic result, the same for which would be carried over to Thunderblitz and similar.
Fair enough. For Stomp, the Russian Roulette is definitely an issue but the other issue I noticed is that in practice, Stomp was less about crowd control, and more about circumventing Deathstar defenses or serving as an ersatz wave-motion gun. The FAQs further confirmed this, by letting Stomps hit enemies not involved in the melee, and letting it Stomp even it destroyed all its foes in melee! So the idea was: emphasize the crowd control aspect, and de-randomize stomps. (In a pinch, it would let S6 walkers like Dreadnoughts get a single stomp).
For sure, Stomps should only be usable within the combat from whence they originated. I'm apprehensive about giving smaller vehicles/monsters Stomps of their own -- though I did have the thought of removing Unit Types altogether and using the pared down USRs to attach requisite abilities where necessary. I could see a Stomp [I, II, or III] delineating the ability to stomp as well as how many are made (much like a Rampage [I, II, or III] ability). A Gorkanaut or Tervigon might get Stomp I while a Knight could receive Stomp II and a Reaver Stomp III and so on. Removing the extraneous die rolls is my real intent.
MagicJuggler wrote: Speaking of Assault, personally I would remove Disordered Charge altogether, and maybe have a clause that rather than always striking last through cover, enemy models in cover get +2 Initiative (max 10) when first Charged. While a Marine might get a chance versus a Genestealer, a Fire Warrior won't!
I would actually prefer to keep Disorded Charges, but use them more often. For example, charging into cover without Assault Grenades would be a Disorded Charge and that's it. That way assaults are always either Disorded or no, depending on circumstances -- without the need for other scenario possibilities.
MagicJuggler wrote: Make Consolidate after Assault ends a flat 6" move. Let Hit and Run be "Consolidate out of an existing melee on a successful Initiative test; the enemy may not Consolidate if this ends the melee". Allow the use of Consolidate, even after assaulting Vehicles. You don't want your Boyz/Gaunts to be flamerbait after attritioning down a Rhino!
Much like Run moves, Consolidate could just be that units Move stat. The vast majority of Infantry-scale models would be Move 6", and so carry through. As for Hit and Run/vehicle combat, I'm not sure at the moment. My gut says to include something akin to 8th that, while disallowing consolidating into combat, moving within 1" of an enemy through consolidation forces the enemy to move back or forfeit their turn. Sort of like a "half-locked" in combat. If that unit remains in place until the Assault Phase, then the two units would fight. Something like that.
MagicJuggler wrote: Let units assault from a non-assault transport if they disembark before the transport moves, ala 5e.
The best versions of overwatch are tactical decisions.
A unit that does not move or shoot on its turn may instead enter overwatch. A unit on overwatch may shoot as though it was their shooting phase at any point during an opponents movement phase.
Units that do so may only fire their weapons at half range. A unit may only make one such overwatch attack A turn.
This allows for full ballistic skill instead of the massive waste of time overwatch normally is and allows all weapon types to be used for over watch. You still need to trace los. But its very restrictive as to who can actually do it because of the restrictions to enter it.
Also to consider. All units begin the game on overwatch. It gives the second player a benefit against the first players alpha strikes while leaving the first player the benefit of first turn positioning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 18:02:51
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: The best versions of overwatch are tactical decisions.
A unit that does not move or shoot on its turn may instead enter overwatch. A unit on overwatch may shoot as though it was their shooting phase at any point during an opponents movement phase.
Units that do so may only fire their weapons at half range. A unit may only make one such overwatch attack A turn.
This allows for full ballistic skill instead of the massive waste of time overwatch normally is and allows all weapon types to be used for over watch. You still need to trace los. But its very restrictive as to who can actually do it because of the restrictions to enter it.
Also to consider. All units begin the game on overwatch. It gives the second player a benefit against the first players alpha strikes while leaving the first player the benefit of first turn positioning.
Can you imagine tau going second with that rule? I would love to play my tau where I get free shooting attacks in the opponent's turn just for standing still. Not like my gun line was going anywhere anyway.
That's what 7th really needed, another way to murder assault armies..................................................................................
Lance845 wrote: The best versions of overwatch are tactical decisions.
A unit that does not move or shoot on its turn may instead enter overwatch. A unit on overwatch may shoot as though it was their shooting phase at any point during an opponents movement phase.
Units that do so may only fire their weapons at half range. A unit may only make one such overwatch attack A turn.
This allows for full ballistic skill instead of the massive waste of time overwatch normally is and allows all weapon types to be used for over watch. You still need to trace los. But its very restrictive as to who can actually do it because of the restrictions to enter it.
Also to consider. All units begin the game on overwatch. It gives the second player a benefit against the first players alpha strikes while leaving the first player the benefit of first turn positioning.
Can you imagine tau going second with that rule? I would love to play my tau where I get free shooting attacks in the opponent's turn just for standing still. Not like my gun line was going anywhere anyway.
That's what 7th really needed, another way to murder assault armies..................................................................................
1/2 range on everything. That means 15" shooting with 7.5" rapid fire on strike teams. Yeah the really long range stuff ends up mid range. The mid short. The short borderline useless. Its easy for tau to stand still with a 30" range. Its easy for even nods to just run about and murder them with their 18" guns.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: The best versions of overwatch are tactical decisions.
A unit that does not move or shoot on its turn may instead enter overwatch. A unit on overwatch may shoot as though it was their shooting phase at any point during an opponents movement phase.
Units that do so may only fire their weapons at half range. A unit may only make one such overwatch attack A turn.
This allows for full ballistic skill instead of the massive waste of time overwatch normally is and allows all weapon types to be used for over watch. You still need to trace los. But its very restrictive as to who can actually do it because of the restrictions to enter it.
Also to consider. All units begin the game on overwatch. It gives the second player a benefit against the first players alpha strikes while leaving the first player the benefit of first turn positioning.
Can you imagine tau going second with that rule? I would love to play my tau where I get free shooting attacks in the opponent's turn just for standing still. Not like my gun line was going anywhere anyway.
That's what 7th really needed, another way to murder assault armies..................................................................................
1/2 range on everything. That means 15" shooting with 7.5" rapid fire on strike teams. Yeah the really long range stuff ends up mid range. The mid short. The short borderline useless. Its easy for tau to stand still with a 30" range. Its easy for even nods to just run about and murder them with their 18" guns.
I dislike the 2e/SWA approach to overwatch for several reasons:
-Forfeiting movement promotes static play.
-Overwatch based on enemy movement promotes static play.
I remember reading some of Andy Chambers' old design notes that 2e Overwatch combined with 2e Smoke resulted in a situation where both armies would end up at a gunline impasse, and the first person to attempt to break it before quitting of boredom usually lost.
I like the idea of making Overwatch "trigger on attack", because although it lets you move then Overwatch, it has restrictions on how to actually activate Overwatch, which a clever attacker can work around.
PS: The defending player can choose how wounds are allocated versus Barrage weapons that are fired indirectly, regardless of range or LOS. In this case, take cover saves on a model-by-model basis. (This is more of a kludge, but the idea is that Barrage weapons shouldn't be better at sniping than actual sniper weapons).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 12:56:33
Well, I can't yet speak to the Overwatch discussion - though I do have an update to post. The idea of Universal Special Rules seems to be an index/appendix of all rules that do not pertain to the more basic rules of the game. As such, yesterday I made a first draft run-through of the USRs, including in their number many rules that appear elsewhere in the rules yet probably should be listed among them. Also, some other changes have cropped up here and there.
Spoiler:
Obviously, there are still some things that need to be slotted in: vehicles, the rule regarding Invulnerable saves, and so on. Of what's there, let me know your thoughts!
EDITS: Shoot, it seems that the images are sort of hard to see. I'll try to get a better resolution uploaded when I return from work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/07 17:58:27
Hey, I had a look over the rules and I have a few thoughts w.r.t. USRs:
"Bulky/Very Bulky/Extremely Bulky" should be Bulky(X) where X is how many transport slots the unit takes.
Rather than Instant Death, Destroyer, High Impact, etc, have "Massive Damage", which is just "an extra D3 wounds/HP". Rather than Unstoppable/EW, etc, just have "Dead 'Ard(X)", which reduces all wounds suffered by a certain amount (to a minimum of 1).
Rather than PoTMS, Massive, Decimator Protocols, etc, just have Fire Control(X), where X is the number of weapons you can fire beyond normal.
Remove Slow&Purposeful, add "Cannot Run" and "Cannot Overwatch" USRs. Let's make the rules more atomic.
Fear should be a Ld mod, not WS. If a unit is within 12" of multiple models with Fear, only apply the highest mod.
Twin-Linked is fine as Twin-linked IMO.
Consider making a few USRs "composite". For example: Force Weapons would be Force(Massive Damage), but Nemesis Force Aeapons would be Force(Massive Damage, Bane(Daemons)). Alternately, an Avatar might have Aura(Friendly, 12")[Fearless, Furious Charge] while Skarbrand would have Aura(All, 24")[Hatred]. Stuff like Furious Charge, Rage, etc could be rolled up into a Charge[Effect] for that reason.
I dislike the change to Jink back to 6e implementation. It should be a conscious tradeoff between attack or defense.
Consider making "Beam", "Nova", and "automatically hits" USRs as well. Example: The Skull of Elder Nikola would be: Range: D6x(turn number)", S 1, AP -, Assault 2d6, Nova, Haywire(2+), Autohit, One-Use.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 18:26:36
Lance845 wrote: The best versions of overwatch are tactical decisions.
A unit that does not move or shoot on its turn may instead enter overwatch. A unit on overwatch may shoot as though it was their shooting phase at any point during an opponents movement phase.
Units that do so may only fire their weapons at half range. A unit may only make one such overwatch attack A turn.
This allows for full ballistic skill instead of the massive waste of time overwatch normally is and allows all weapon types to be used for over watch. You still need to trace los. But its very restrictive as to who can actually do it because of the restrictions to enter it.
Also to consider. All units begin the game on overwatch. It gives the second player a benefit against the first players alpha strikes while leaving the first player the benefit of first turn positioning.
Can you imagine tau going second with that rule? I would love to play my tau where I get free shooting attacks in the opponent's turn just for standing still. Not like my gun line was going anywhere anyway.
That's what 7th really needed, another way to murder assault armies..................................................................................
1/2 range on everything. That means 15" shooting with 7.5" rapid fire on strike teams. Yeah the really long range stuff ends up mid range. The mid short. The short borderline useless. Its easy for tau to stand still with a 30" range. Its easy for even nods to just run about and murder them with their 18" guns.
I dislike the 2e/SWA approach to overwatch for several reasons:
-Forfeiting movement promotes static play.
-Overwatch based on enemy movement promotes static play.
I remember reading some of Andy Chambers' old design notes that 2e Overwatch combined with 2e Smoke resulted in a situation where both armies would end up at a gunline impasse, and the first person to attempt to break it before quitting of boredom usually lost.
I like the idea of making Overwatch "trigger on attack", because although it lets you move then Overwatch, it has restrictions on how to actually activate Overwatch, which a clever attacker can work around.
PS: The defending player can choose how wounds are allocated versus Barrage weapons that are fired indirectly, regardless of range or LOS. In this case, take cover saves on a model-by-model basis. (This is more of a kludge, but the idea is that Barrage weapons shouldn't be better at sniping than actual sniper weapons).
My thought regarding the Overwatch conundrum is just to keep Overwatch as it is, but offer more opportunities for assault-based armies to negate Overwatch altogether. More Dirge Casters, and the like. I'd rather not introduce new mechanisms for interrupting the opponents turn where possible -- but that being said, alpha-strikes and the dominance of firing first should be addressed.
MagicJuggler wrote:Hey, I had a look over the rules and I have a few thoughts w.r.t. USRs:
Sure, though I'm a little surprised that the facing rules/vehicle damage table/statistic comparison chart are not cause for comparison first!
MagicJuggler wrote:"Bulky/Very Bulky/Extremely Bulky" should be Bulky(X) where X is how many transport slots the unit takes.
Makes complete sense to me. That'll be in the next iteration for sure.
MagicJuggler wrote:Rather than Instant Death, Destroyer, High Impact, etc, have "Massive Damage", which is just "an extra D3 wounds/HP". Rather than Unstoppable/EW, etc, just have "Dead 'Ard(X)", which reduces all wounds suffered by a certain amount (to a minimum of 1).
See, maybe this is just me, but I really dislike random rolls such as this. I may simple introduce a "Multiple Wounds [X]" rule to replace High Caliber and the like: though I would keep it too whole values. The reason being is that I would rather not a lucky roll completely destroy a vehicle/monster, but rather have weapons retain their strength between shots.
MagicJuggler wrote:Rather than PoTMS, Massive, Decimator Protocols, etc, just have Fire Control(X), where X is the number of weapons you can fire beyond normal.
Fire Control (X) makes sense, though Massive does do more than just include the old rules for Monstrous Creatures. I wanted to include some simple way for Monstrous Creatures to deal with debilitating injury much like vehicles do, and the Massive rule gave me a way out. Since I removed Smash, I would need to remember that all Monstrous Creatures (that are intended for close combat) possess an AP 2 weapon.
MagicJuggler wrote:Remove Slow&Purposeful, add "Cannot Run" and "Cannot Overwatch" USRs. Let's make the rules more atomic.
Slow & Purposeful was one of those rules that I looked at and wanted to find an excuse to remove. This is an easy fix!
MagicJuggler wrote:Fear should be a Ld mod, not WS. If a unit is within 12" of multiple models with Fear, only apply the highest mod.
I like that a lot too. It does mean that I'll have to throw an extra bone to Haemonculus Covens, since their shtick has been taken, but on the upside it would make an Fear-based Daemon army actually pretty dangerous. Especially with that -1 Ld Nurgle Relic!
MagicJuggler wrote:Twin-Linked is fine as Twin-linked IMO.
I just didn't like the name, is all: I think it doesn't fit with the concept well. It isn't a very important issue, so whatever.
MagicJuggler wrote:Consider making a few USRs "composite". For example: Force Weapons would be Force(Massive Damage), but Nemesis Force Aeapons would be Force(Massive Damage, Bane(Daemons)). Alternately, an Avatar might have Aura(Friendly, 12")[Fearless, Furious Charge] while Skarbrand would have Aura(All, 24")[Hatred]. Stuff like Furious Charge, Rage, etc could be rolled up into a Charge[Effect] for that reason.
A possibility, to be sure. Aura would be a good USR to add, and a Charge Bonus USR would easily consolidate four or five.
MagicJuggler wrote:I dislike the change to Jink back to 6e implementation. It should be a conscious tradeoff between attack or defense.
My thought was that no model would EVER receive a bonus better than Swift [5+], and they are forced to move their maximum amount during the Movement phase (I can't remember if that's how it worked in 6E, though). Stacking cover saves might make it exploitable; my thought is that by alleviating the ability of Skilled Rider (now Terrain Master) to reroll such saves and by reducing the number of armies that can make use of stackable cover saves this can be minimized. For sure, this will be a conversation to keep track of.
MagicJuggler wrote:Consider making "Beam", "Nova", and "automatically hits" USRs as well. Example: The Skull of Elder Nikola would be: Range: D6x(turn number)", S 1, AP -, Assault 2d6, Nova, Haywire(2+), Autohit, One-Use.
For Beam, Nova, etc. I think you are right. Automatic hits though might not need to be a USR, since the attacks that make use of it (Blasts/Templates/Novas) already have it written into them.
Thanks again for the feedback everyone, this is a huge help! In the next few days I should be able to get a playtest game in with these rules, so if that happens I'll report the results back here.
My 2 cents about the #1 thing that must be changed/killed: as long as there are formations, at all, then the game will always be a dumpster fire.
The reason why is because formations added an extra layer of special rules onto models that otherwise did not have those special rules, yet there was no easy way for opposing players to keep track of which units had access to which additional special rules.
That's the thing about a miniature game, for the most part you're supposed to be able to look across the table and have some idea what the models you're looking at are capable of. But once formations were introduced all of a sudden one tactical marine could be totally different from another tactical marines just because one of them was part of a formation and the other one wasn't.
That is game design fail, and GW only introduced them (IMHO) as a way to sell more existing models and print/sell new expansion rules without having to actually produce new models. The only 'good' that ever came from them was a way for GW to balance out units/codexes that had started to perform poorly in comparison to other armies, but that came with way too steep a price.
Its essentially the reason I stopped playing the game (along with general rules bloat) after playing 25 years.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/08 07:58:53
I'm more torn on formations. On one hand, I would agree that GW went overboard with some formations (Hi Riptide Wing) and there were a lot of formations that were either junk (anything from Daemonkin that was not the Gorepack), or painfully redundant (Chaos Warband & Black Legion Warband, etc). On the other hand, I remember back when Guard had Doctrines, and not all of them were easy to model with strict WYSIWYG! On the other other hand, I like when a formation gives drawbacks as well as bonuses (loss of Obsec was the most noticeable one, but any "tax/opportunity cost" is also noted).
That said, it became very noticeable at the end that GW was just running out of ideas for formations, especially when it came to vehicles. Every Space Marine army had some variant of "Techmarine and 3 Tanks" formation, with varied degrees of viability or coolness. For example, the Spear of Russ gave vehicles near its Land Raider POTMS, and let the Ironpriest grant a buff from 4 choices to a vehicle from the formation. The Fist of the Gods gave vehicles within 12" of the Warpsmith a 6+ Invulnerable. Such a bland bonus for such an awesome formation name.
I think that removing formations from 7e should have been a gradual phasing out rather than the hard reset like 8th; slowly consolidate and pare down from there. As a crude example, let's try to consolidate "tank" formations.
First, let us create a new USR to represent HQs commandeering vehicles, be it for Pask, Chronus, Longstrike, or the assorted special Dreads (Librarian Dreads, FW Chaplain Dreads, etc). We shall call it Pilot(X)[Y]. This would let the character start inside a vehicle of type X. While in that vehicle, the vehicle gains the Character subtype and benefits from the pilot's WS/BS/I, as well as any USRs that are included in Y. As a plus side, this rule could be extended to other HQs, in case you want your Dreadbash to be led by a Big Mek in a Mega Dread (rather than needing separate entries for Mega Dreads ans Meka Dreads)
Then we'll create an "Armored Spearhead" detachment ala 8th edition, for running vehicles aggressively. It requires 1 HQ, and 3-5 vehicles (ymmv about squadroning) with the Tank subtype (or capable of Tank Shock) from Fast Attack / Heavy Support. The HQ should have the Pilot(Tank) or the Repair USRs, and only one Tank in the formation may have an Ordnance Barrage weapon without direct fire. In exchange, the formation gets Blitzkrieg: When a unit from this detachment destroys one or more enemy units during the controlling player's turn, another unit in this formation within 6" of a Character from the same detachment may make a Blitzkrieg attack: This unit gains a free round of shooting as though it were the shooting phase, with the following restrictions:
-The unit counts as stationary for purposes of determining what weapons it may fire. It remains subject to other restrictions.
-The unit may not fire Barrage Weapons, except in direct fire mode; as a corollary, it may not fire Barrage Weapons that cannot be fired directly.
-The unit may only Blitzkrieg once per turn.
This would be a powerful formation, but restrictive in its implementation, and potentially rather tax-heavy. It would let you eliminate...a lot of tank formations, from the Marine ones, to the Armored Interdiction Cadre, to the assorted Guard formations, and it would give Orks the tools for a proppa Armored Krumpany (rather than that sad excuse for a Blitz Brigade). The "capable of Tank Shock" clause was added so Dark Eldar could run a Ravager Assassin Team too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Bork wrote: Sure, though I'm a little surprised that the facing rules/vehicle damage table/statistic comparison chart are not cause for comparison first!
I like the idea of a consolidated "attack-defense" chart myself, and have tried experimenting with it in the past. The most controversial thing I did with it was making rolling to-hit a comparison between BS and Initiative, with cover granting a variable Init bonus vs shooting and when defending against an initial charge.
The vehicle damage I'm iffier on. The "minor and major damage" look like more overall bookkeeping, and as written can lead to: "My Manticore is immobilized, and keeps subtracting 1 from its movement" or so. I would probably use the 7e chart with the following exceptions:
-Replace Vehicle Destroyed with "On Fire"
-When rolling Weapon Destroyed, the attacker chooses the weapon. A Primary Weapon cannot be destroyed. (Incidentally, certain items like the Battle Cannon or Particle Whip could stand to be Primary instead of Ordnance).
-All "Repair" abilities (Blessing of the Omnissiah, Master of Mechanisms, etc) are consolidated into Repair(X). When a model with Repair(X) moves in b2b with a vehicle, it may do X of the following: Restore a Hull Point, Repair a destroyed weapon, remove Immobilized, remove Shaken/Stunned.
There are a few other things worth considering too:
-Missile Lock is perhaps the least universal USR out there. IIRC, only ine weapon in the game (the Blacksword Missile) actually used it. By contrast, the Hunter's Skyspear, the Hive Crone's Spores, and Tau Seeker Missiles all had their own special rules that weren't Missile Lock!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/08 23:35:47
MagicJuggler wrote: I'm more torn on formations. On one hand, I would agree that GW went overboard with some formations (Hi Riptide Wing) and there were a lot of formations that were either junk (anything from Daemonkin that was not the Gorepack), or painfully redundant (Chaos Warband & Black Legion Warband, etc). On the other hand, I remember back when Guard had Doctrines, and not all of them were easy to model with strict WYSIWYG! On the other other hand, I like when a formation gives drawbacks as well as bonuses (loss of Obsec was the most noticeable one, but any "tax/opportunity cost" is also noted).
That said, it became very noticeable at the end that GW was just running out of ideas for formations, especially when it came to vehicles. Every Space Marine army had some variant of "Techmarine and 3 Tanks" formation, with varied degrees of viability or coolness. For example, the Spear of Russ gave vehicles near its Land Raider POTMS, and let the Ironpriest grant a buff from 4 choices to a vehicle from the formation. The Fist of the Gods gave vehicles within 12" of the Warpsmith a 6+ Invulnerable. Such a bland bonus for such an awesome formation name.
I think that removing formations from 7e should have been a gradual phasing out rather than the hard reset like 8th; slowly consolidate and pare down from there. As a crude example, let's try to consolidate "tank" formations.
Formations, for the most part, were only a problem in that their Special Rules got out of control AND they weren't Command Benefits. If they kept them light ala CAD Benefits, or MAYBE the old Doctrines, that might be a consideration.
If there is a complaint about spamming a unit, the problem is the unit, not the Formation itself.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
My 2 cents about the #1 thing that must be changed/killed: as long as there are formations, at all, then the game will always be a dumpster fire.
The reason why is because formations added an extra layer of special rules onto models that otherwise did not have those special rules, yet there was no easy way for opposing players to keep track of which units had access to which additional special rules.
That's the thing about a miniature game, for the most part you're supposed to be able to look across the table and have some idea what the models you're looking at are capable of. But once formations were introduced all of a sudden one tactical marine could be totally different from another tactical marines just because one of them was part of a formation and the other one wasn't.
That is game design fail, and GW only introduced them (IMHO) as a way to sell more existing models and print/sell new expansion rules without having to actually produce new models. The only 'good' that ever came from them was a way for GW to balance out units/codexes that had started to perform poorly in comparison to other armies, but that came with way too steep a price.
Its essentially the reason I stopped playing the game (along with general rules bloat) after playing 25 years.
I get were you're coming from: adding extra Special Rules to army lists that make use of specific (or not so specific) combinations of units not only seems unfair but also unnecessary. My opinion is that this stems from a distressing lacking of interesting options as the game progressed from 5E to 7E. The tail-end of 5E saw many codices released with quite cool/unique rules (Necrons, Dark Eldar, and so on). Yet as the game progressed, many of these very interesting options disappeared. Bringing back the unique abilities of individual units in the game, while regimenting the basic rules, is essentially the core concept for this rewrite.
MagicJuggler wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm more torn on formations. On one hand, I would agree that GW went overboard with some formations (Hi Riptide Wing) and there were a lot of formations that were either junk (anything from Daemonkin that was not the Gorepack), or painfully redundant (Chaos Warband & Black Legion Warband, etc). On the other hand, I remember back when Guard had Doctrines, and not all of them were easy to model with strict WYSIWYG! On the other other hand, I like when a formation gives drawbacks as well as bonuses (loss of Obsec was the most noticeable one, but any "tax/opportunity cost" is also noted).
That said, it became very noticeable at the end that GW was just running out of ideas for formations, especially when it came to vehicles. Every Space Marine army had some variant of "Techmarine and 3 Tanks" formation, with varied degrees of viability or coolness. For example, the Spear of Russ gave vehicles near its Land Raider POTMS, and let the Ironpriest grant a buff from 4 choices to a vehicle from the formation. The Fist of the Gods gave vehicles within 12" of the Warpsmith a 6+ Invulnerable. Such a bland bonus for such an awesome formation name.
I think that removing formations from 7e should have been a gradual phasing out rather than the hard reset like 8th; slowly consolidate and pare down from there. As a crude example, let's try to consolidate "tank" formations.
First, let us create a new USR to represent HQs commandeering vehicles, be it for Pask, Chronus, Farsight, or the assorted special Dreads (Librarian Dreads, FW Chaplain Dreads, etc). We shall call it Pilot(X)[Y]. This would let the character start inside a vehicle of type X. While in that vehicle, the vehicle gains the Character subtype and benefits from the pilot's WS/BS/I, as well as any USRs that are included in Y. As a plus side, this rule could be extended to other HQs, in case you want your Dreadbash to be led by a Big Mek in a Mega Dread (rather than needing separate entries for Mega Dreads ans Meka Dreads)
Then we'll create an "Armored Spearhead" detachment ala 8th edition, for running vehicles aggressively. It requires 1 HQ, and 3-5 vehicles (ymmv about squadroning) with the Tank subtype (or capable of Tank Shock) from Fast Attack / Heavy Support. The HQ should have the Pilot(Tank) or the Repair USRs, and only one Tank in the formation may have an Ordnance Barrage weapon without direct fire. In exchange, the formation gets Blitzkrieg: When a unit from this detachment destroys one or more enemy units during the controlling player's turn, another unit in this formation within 6" of a Character from the same detachment may make a Blitzkrieg attack: This unit gains a free round of shooting as though it were the shooting phase, with the following restrictions:
-The unit counts as stationary for purposes of determining what weapons it may fire. It remains subject to other restrictions.
-The unit may not fire Barrage Weapons, except in direct fire mode; as a corollary, it may not fire Barrage Weapons that cannot be fired directly.
-The unit may only Blitzkrieg once per turn.
This would be a powerful formation, but restrictive in its implementation, and potentially rather tax-heavy. It would let you eliminate...a lot of tank formations, from the Marine ones, to the Armored Interdiction Cadre, to the assorted Guard formations, and it would give Orks the tools for a proppa Armored Krumpany (rather than that sad excuse for a Blitz Brigade). The "capable of Tank Shock" clause was added so Dark Eldar could run a Ravager Assassin Team too.
This is a mindset that I agree with. Although I am not military expert, I was under the understanding that historically armed forces of the modern era have been organized into various sub-groups, such as Combined Arms/Armoured/Artillery and so on. The game should have some way to represent that, without going overboard as Formations did.
This is one of the areas that I feel 8E did a good job (in principle), though those various Detachments can be easily exploited to spam multitudes of powerful units. Some minor modifications to that basic system would likely produce a strong result.
MagicJuggler wrote:
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Bork wrote: Sure, though I'm a little surprised that the facing rules/vehicle damage table/statistic comparison chart are not cause for comparison first!
I like the idea of a consolidated "attack-defense" chart myself, and have tried experimenting with it in the past. The most controversial thing I did with it was making rolling to-hit a comparison between BS and Initiative, with cover granting a variable Init bonus vs shooting and when defending against an initial charge.
The vehicle damage I'm iffier on. The "minor and major damage" look like more overall bookkeeping, and as written can lead to: "My Manticore is immobilized, and keeps subtracting 1 from its movement" or so. I would probably use the 7e chart with the following exceptions:
-Replace Vehicle Destroyed with "On Fire"
-When rolling Weapon Destroyed, the attacker chooses the weapon. A Primary Weapon cannot be destroyed. (Incidentally, certain items like the Battle Cannon or Particle Whip could stand to be Primary instead of Ordnance).
-All "Repair" abilities (Blessing of the Omnissiah, Master of Mechanisms, etc) are consolidated into Repair(X). When a model with Repair(X) moves in b2b with a vehicle, it may do X of the following: Restore a Hull Point, Repair a destroyed weapon, remove Immobilized, remove Shaken/Stunned.
There are a few other things worth considering too:
-Missile Lock is perhaps the least universal USR out there. IIRC, only ine weapon in the game (the Blacksword Missile) actually used it. By contrast, the Hunter's Skyspear, the Hive Crone's Spores, and Tau Seeker Missiles all had their own special rules that weren't Missile Lock!
I will agree that the Vehicle Damage table still needs some consideration. I am somewhat proud with the "On Fire" solution to previous Explodes results - by speeding up the Vehicle's demise but disallowing an extremely lucky one-shot kill, outside of very large weapons that already remove extra Hulll Points.
The goal here was to allow the attacking player the ability to temporarily reduce the effectiveness of Vehicles, operating under the assumption that all Vehicle-crews carry with them the tools and materials necessary to fix their machines when necessary. I disliked that Monsters could keep going at full capacity while injured, while Vehicles could get stunned, damaged, and so on - hence the addition of injured Monsters getting weaker a la Massive. That being said, vehicles can still get hurt as the game progresses, and be overloaded with many damaging effects, so I was trying to juggle some middle ground there. Having certain weapons capable of auto-wounding by Destroyer or Strength-alone might also assist in this process of alleviating issues.
As for Repair: I dislike that so many "repair characters" have a chance of failing to help the target of their efforts. As such, Repair [X] might be a good workaround, where that allows a model in BTB or embarked to restore Hull Points/remove Damage/put out Fires. The only caveat is that no vehicle may be repaired by more than once per turn.
If I left Missile Lock in the USR list, then that's a mistake. It was supposed to go in the first round of axing!
Charistoph wrote:
Spoiler:
MagicJuggler wrote: I'm more torn on formations. On one hand, I would agree that GW went overboard with some formations (Hi Riptide Wing) and there were a lot of formations that were either junk (anything from Daemonkin that was not the Gorepack), or painfully redundant (Chaos Warband & Black Legion Warband, etc). On the other hand, I remember back when Guard had Doctrines, and not all of them were easy to model with strict WYSIWYG! On the other other hand, I like when a formation gives drawbacks as well as bonuses (loss of Obsec was the most noticeable one, but any "tax/opportunity cost" is also noted).
That said, it became very noticeable at the end that GW was just running out of ideas for formations, especially when it came to vehicles. Every Space Marine army had some variant of "Techmarine and 3 Tanks" formation, with varied degrees of viability or coolness. For example, the Spear of Russ gave vehicles near its Land Raider POTMS, and let the Ironpriest grant a buff from 4 choices to a vehicle from the formation. The Fist of the Gods gave vehicles within 12" of the Warpsmith a 6+ Invulnerable. Such a bland bonus for such an awesome formation name.
I think that removing formations from 7e should have been a gradual phasing out rather than the hard reset like 8th; slowly consolidate and pare down from there. As a crude example, let's try to consolidate "tank" formations.
Formations, for the most part, were only a problem in that their Special Rules got out of control AND they weren't Command Benefits. If they kept them light ala CAD Benefits, or MAYBE the old Doctrines, that might be a consideration.
If there is a complaint about spamming a unit, the problem is the unit, not the Formation itself.
My distaste for Formations is based upon their lack of specificity, and ability to circumvent limitations more than anything else. A fundamental issue with the ability to take more than once detachment is that Formations and the like no longer lock you into a particular play-style. Therefore, as I said above, 8E basis with additional problem-solving could assist in alleviating this issue.
For example, the Spearhead Detachment requires that all compulsory Heavy Support units be either Vehicles, or have the Massive Special Rule (using my own variation here). The same could be for Spearhead detachments, where compulsory Fast Attack units must have a Move of at least 12" (or something like that). Then, perhaps a rule where non-Primary Detachments may only include as many as half the filled spots of the Primary Detachment - so if my Combined Arms detachment included 8 total units, then I could only take as many as 4 choice per non-Primary Detachment. I'm just spitballing here, but I think the idea is clear enough.
Colonel Bork wrote: My distaste for Formations is based upon their lack of specificity, and ability to circumvent limitations more than anything else. A fundamental issue with the ability to take more than once detachment is that Formations and the like no longer lock you into a particular play-style. Therefore, as I said above, 8E basis with additional problem-solving could assist in alleviating this issue.
IMO the first thing when dealing with the formations should be to go through all the formations in question, and determine what the intent of said formations were: Many of them tend to adhere to some general "theme". The "Armored Spearhead" was the example, but other examples might include:
-"Mechanized Taskforce:" Emperor's Blade Assault Force, Tau Counterstrike Cadre, Stormlance Demi-Company, Ironwolves, Neophyte Cavalcade, Deliverance Broodsurge, etc. They all tend towards a "all infantry must be mounted up" restriction, and either make the tanks faster, give the infantry bonuses to hitting/sweeping enemies near objectives, etc.
-"Special Forces:" Terminator Annihilation Force, Company Taskforce, Aspect Hosts, the assorted Tau "Battlesuit" formations, Bullyboyz, etc. Years ago, I had an idea for this detachment: You had a large pool of USRs, where you could give each unit (not their transports) 2 of the USRs, but you could not give the same USRs to a second unit in the same Detachment (think similar to how Ogre Kingdom Maneaters in 8e had "Been there, done that.").
-"Magic: It's Gathering:" You know what I mean. The Librarius Conclave, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood, Cyclopea Cabal, Heralds Anarchic, etc. By revising the Psyker system, these can all get the axe!
-Walker Formations: I will need to think more on these.
-Honor Guards: Ethereal Councils, Council of Waaagh, etc. Once again, axe!
-Edit: I almost forgot "Formation/Detachment that gives a random buff?" These ones are relatively uncommon, the most notable ones being the Grotesquerie and the First Curse. These can be axed by making such random boons purchase-able upgrades, or by rolling in such skills into the "Special Forces" detachment.
And keep working from there. Consolidate and simplify.
As for "multiple detachments", I'm cool with them, provided there was some way to logically organize them around each other. Be it sole "entity relationship" between Commands/Cores/Auxiliaries, etc. I'll get back to you on this because this may take additional thought!
EDIT: Awhile back, I worked on a "rewrite" for Traitor Legions and Thousand Sons as well. One thing I tried doing with the 1k Sons formations was to keep the "1 HQ + 9 Units" shtick, where a formation of maxed-out units would get a bonus, BUT I tried to make the formations more flexible while trying to de-emphasize the spam. If people want to keep "Unique Detachments" for different factions (for fluff purposes), this would be one way to do it; add enough restrictions to prevent bizarre edgecases/odd spam. I've copy-pasted some unit and wargear tweaks for context:
MagicJuggler I'll have to give your formation ideas a closer look soon. At the moment, I decided I would convert these rules into the forum and add a change-log. So from now on, modification to the rules are going to be listed there are well. I will edit the Original Post after completing this one.
Spoiler:
Warhammer 40k Draft House Rules
Comparative Statistics Chart This chart is used whenever two characteristics are being compared, such as Strength versus Toughness, or Weapon Skill versus Weapon Skill in close combat. Psychic Powers and Army Specific Special Rules will also make use of this chart, generally with the terminology “make a test for () versus ()”.
Unit Facings No longer will vehicles be the only models that must concern themselves with facing—to some extent, all models must do so. However, “organic” creatures (meaning most non-vehicle entities) only having two facings, following this diagram with their base:
The green section denotes the Front Arc of the model, while the red denotes the Rear Arc. A model may only target enemies in their Front Arc with their ranged weapons, Psychic Powers, and so on. Models may only fire Overwatch against assaults that originate from that models Front Arc.
For models that possess non-round bases, the same general principle holds (Front Arc and Rear Arc). Some models have particular facings, such as the Tyranid Tyrannocite (which has no Rear Arc).
Generating Warlord Traits: After selecting your Warlord, you must choose whether or not your Warlord will generate their Trait from the Rulebook or from their Codex. In either case, you may simple select the Trait that your Warlord will use—though this must be recorded on your Army Sheet.
Generating Psychic Powers: Largely unchanged, with several small alterations by faction:
Imperium Faction: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology. Inquisitors count as Grey Knights for the purpose of activating Sanctic Daemonlogy powers.
Eldar: Lose access to Malefic Daemonology.
Chaos Space Marines: Psykers with Marks of Chaos are no longer required to generate any of their powers from the Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch tables, and may generate all of their powers from such tables if they so choose with +1 to Manifest. Remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules.
Chaos Daemons: Since Daemons are not forced to generate any of their Psychic Powers from their Gods' Tables, they simple remove all instances of Chaos Psychic Focus from the rules. They gain the same +1 to Manifest as per Chaos Space Marines with their God-oriented Disciplines.
Tyranids: Gain access to Biomancy in addition to their Powers of the Hive Mind table. Add to Shadow in the Warp that all enemies attempting to Manifest a Warp Charge within range does so at -1 (so generally a 5+).
Orks: Lose access to both Daemonology tables, gain access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis.
Maelstrom of War Objectives: Whenever an Objective is drawn that is incapable of being accomplished given the current board-state (enemy doesn't have a Psyker, their Warlord is already dead, etc.) may be immediately discarded and replaced with a new objective.
Entering From Deep Strike/Outflank/Reserves: Units which enter the game from reserves of any type are allowed a single phase of their choice upon entry: Move/Psychic/Shooting/Assault. The models are placed as they usually would be on the table, and activated during the appropriate phase.
Movement Phase Difficult Terrain reduces a models Move characteristic by half (for all movement: Move/Run/Assault/etc.).
Any unit that is not Falling Back may choose to move off your Table Edge and enter Ongoing Reserves.
Psychic Phase When generating Warp Charges, each Psyker in your army generates their own unique pool that is available only to them—which is equal to 1 + Mastery Level. Rules regarding the number of Powers a Psyker may attempt to Manifest, and so on, remain the same (with the following exception).
Deny the Witch Attempting to dispel the powers being generated by an enemy Psyker now requires a Pysker-equivalent of your own—the check is still the same, with the Denying player generating dice equal to their Mastery Level.
The Denying Psyker may attempt to dispel the powers of enemy Psykers within 24” (Psychic Hood adds 6”), with rolls of 6s negating successfully Manifested dice. Modifiers to this roll follow the same rules as before, with the exception of Adamantium Will—which will require some changing.
Shooting Phase Run moves are always Move; see USR changes.
All units can Split Fire based upon Weapon Groups, i.e. all weapons within a squad must be fired at the same target.
Look Out, Sir! may only be used by Independent Characters, and may allocate wounds to models of the same Unit Type only as the original target.
Assault Phase Charges are 6” plus Move; on a failed charge the unit moves half their Move towards their target still.
Charging through Difficult Terrain is always a Disorded Charge.
Morale Units always Fall Back their full Move characteristic.
Vehicle Damage Tables As per 7th Edition, Glancing Hits remove a single Hull Point from the target vehicle. However, the Vehicle Damage Table from Penetrating Hits is now slightly different:
Certain weapons receive a bonus to their rolls on the Vehicle Damage Table:
Other Changes:
Unit Types exist as collections of USRs, and as “targets” for characterizing groups of models for USRs.
If a model/unit has in its profile a different version of any USRs provided by its Unit Type, use that instead.
Infantry – The ubiquitous standard; no USRs
Artillery – Man-Packed Gun (weapon), Stealth [II]
Beasts & Cavalry – Fleet [12”]
Jump Units – Airborne, Bulky [2], Deep Strike, Impact Hits [1]
Jetpack Units – Airborne, Bulky [2], Deep Strike, Relentless
Monstrous Creatures – Impeded [Embark], Fire Control [1], Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless
Flying Monstrous Creatures – Airborne [High Flying], Impeded [Embark], Deep Strike, Fire Control [1], Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Skyfire, Swift [1], Vector Strike [1]
Gargantuan Creatures – Impeded [Embark], Fire Control [1], Fearless, Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Stomp [1], Unstoppable Behemoth
Gargantuan Flying Gargantuan – Airborne [High Flying], Impeded [Embark], Deep Strike, Fire Control [1], Fearless, Impact Hits [1], Massive, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Skyfire, Stomp [1], Swift [1], Unstoppable Behemoth, Vector Strike [1]
Vehicles
Universal Special Rules
Adamantium Will [+X] – Units containing at least one model with this Special Rule provide a +X bonus to Deny the Witch tests against Psychic Powers targeting them. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the highest.
Airborne – Models with this Special Rule may move over other models and terrain freely.
If an Airborne model begins or ends its move in Difficult Terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Furthermore, Airborne models may move over Impassable Terrain and may end their move on top of Impassible Terrain if the model is physically capable of doing so—in which case they treat the Impassable Terrain as Dangerous Terrain instead.
High Flying – Some Airborne models will fly much higher than others above the battlefield, outside the reach of most conventional weaponry. Models that have the Airborne (High Flying) Special Rule may choose at the start of the Movement Phase to be High Flying rather than simply Airborne until the next friendly Movement Phase.
When a model is High Flying, it may move up to double its Movement characteristic, but must move at least its Movement characteristic. This movement must be in a straight line—though the High Flying model may make an up to 90° pivot before beginning this movement.
High Flying models can never Fall Back, nor can they charge/be charged (or Tank Shocked). Otherwise, High Flying models follow all the same rules as Airborne models.
Models that are High Flying are difficult to hit, and as such shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model/weapon has the Skyfire Special Rule (see below). Non-vehicle models with the High Flying special rule may be Grounded—at the end of any Phase where the High Flying model suffers one or more unsaved wounds, it must take a Grounding Test.
On a d6 roll of 3+, the Grounding Test is passed and the High Flying model maintains control with no further effect. If the test is failed, the High Flying model comes crashing down to the grounded suffers a Strength 9 automatic hit with no armor or cover saves allowed. Furthermore, the model is no longer treated as High Flying, and loses all benefits (and penalties) of choosing to do so. At the start of the controlling players next Movement Phase, the model may once again resume High Flying.
And They Shall Know No Fear – (unchanged)
Aura (range) [benefit] – Friendly units with at least one model within the (range) value of the base/Hull of a model with this Special Rule gain the listed [benefit].
Assault Vehicle – (unchanged)
Barrage – (unchanged)
Blast – (unchanged)
Bulky [X] – A model with this Special Rules occupies X slots of Transport Capacity, rather than 1.
Charge Bonus [+X (characteristic)] – On the turn that a model with this Special Rule charges, it gains a +X bonus to the listed (characteristic).
Counter Attack – (unchanged)
Daemon – A model with this Special Rule have a 5+ Invulnerable Save, and is considered to be a Daemon which has particular rule interactions elsewhere.
Deep Strike – (see above; Reserves) Deep Strike mishaps are always Delayed; landing in Difficult Terrain causes Dangerous Terrain checks on Deep Striking unit.
Destroyer Weapons – Hits caused by weapons with this Special Rule will always successfully wound their target and will always successfully Penetrate their target. Furthermore, successful Invulnerable Saves must be rerolled against wounds inflicted by Destroyer Weapons.
Eternal Warrior – (unchanged)
Ferocious [+X] – Units that contain at least one model with this Special Rule gain a +X bonus to Combat Resolution and Sweeping Advances. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the highest.
Fearless – (unchanged)
Feel No Pain – (unchanged)
Fire Control [X] – A model with this Special Rule may fire X additional weapons than normal during the Shooting Phase.
Fleet [X”] – Models with this Special Rule move the bracketed value when Running/Turbo-Boosting/Flat Out, rather than their Movement characteristic. If a unit contains models with different values for X, use the lowest.
Graviton – The roll needed To Wound when firing a weapon with this Special Rule is always equal to the Armor Save of the target. This Special Rule has no effect on vehicles, though many Graviton weapons also have Haywire (see below).
Gets Hot – (unchanged)
Hatred (target) – A models with this Special Rule must reroll all failed To Hit rolls in close combat against the (target) of their hatred.
Haywire [X+] – When a model/weapon with this Special Rule hits a vehicle, it always Glances on a fixed number (in brackets) unless a lower result would be required. Note that such weapons may potentially Penetrate their target, in which case that result would replace the Glancing Hit.
Unless otherwise stated, Haywire weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1. The Haywire Special Rule has no effect against non-vehicles.
High Caliber [X] – Unsaved wounds caused by weapons with this Special Rule remove X wounds from their target rather than only 1. Additionally, Penetrating Hits caused by weapons with this Special Rule remove X Hull Point from their target, rather than 1.
Hit & Run – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule that is Locked in Combat may attempt to leave close combat at the end of any Assault Phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an Initiative test.
If the test is failed, nothing happens and the models remain locked in the fight.
If the test is passed, choose a direction and move the models their Move characteristic in that direction. If this distance is not sufficient to allow the entire unit to move over 1” away from all the enemy models, the unit is considered to still be Locked in Combat. Otherwise, the combat has ended, and no Sweeping Advances nor Consolidation moves are made.
Note that Hit & Run moves follow the normal rules for Difficult and Dangerous Terrain. Hit & Run moves may not be used to move into base or hull contact with enemy units; models instead stop 1” away. If there are units with this Special Rule both sides of a close combat, roll-off to determine who goes first then alternate disengaging them. Notice that you may not disengage from combat if your enemy left first, i.e. there is no one remaining in combat to Hit & Run from!
(Unit Type) Hunter – A unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule rerolls all failed To Wound/Armor Penetration rolls against the listed (Unit Type). For example, Monstrous Creature Hunters would reroll all failed To Wound rolls against Monstrous Creatures.
Against vehicles, this Special Rule may be used to reroll Glancing Hits in an attempt to instead get a Penetrating Hit—in this case the second result must be kept, even if worse (as for all rerolls).
Ignores Cover – (unchanged)
Impact Hits [X] – If a model with this Special Rule ends its charge move in base or hull contact with an enemy model or building, it makes X additional attacks that hit automatically and are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength with AP null unless otherwise stated. These attacks do not benefit from any of the model’s other Special Rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned, Rending, etc.) unless otherwise stated.
These attacks are resolved directly before the Fight Subphase, and do not grant the model an additional Pile In move. If a model with this Special Rule charges a building/vehicle, the hits are resolved against the Armor Value of the facing the charging model is in contact with.
Impeded (action) – A models with this Special Rule may never undertake the listed (action), voluntarily or otherwise. For example, a model that has the Impeded (Run) Special Rule could not Run during the Shooting Phase.
Instant Death – (unchanged)
Independent Character – (unchanged)
Infiltrate – (unchanged; note Outflank changes)
It Will Not Die – (unchanged)
Lance – (unchanged)
Man-Packed Gun (weapon) – A model with this Special Rule represents the physical gun that is being operated by an artillery crew. The Man-Packed Gun model does not have statistics, but the model does occupy space and exist on the board nonetheless, moving with the crew (and taking up a space in transports). Once all the crew has been removed from the game the gun is removed as well.
The (weapon) mounted on the Man-Packed Gun is fired by its crew, for all intents and purposes as though the crew were equipped with the weapon. One crew member must be within 2” of the Man-Packed Gun to operate it—the rest of the crew may fire their other weapons as normal.
The crew of a Man-Packed Gun may not charge, nor may the Man-Packed Gun itself be fired during Overwatch.
Master-Crafted – (unchanged)
Massive – Models with this Special Rule may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise.
Furthermore, due to their prodigious size, models with this Special Rule tend to be very difficult to kill. As a battle progresses they may survive debilitating injuries that would slay any weaker creature, though these injuries will still impede them. When a model with the Massive Special Rule is reduced to one half its starting wounds or less, its Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, and Attacks are all reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1.
Melta – (unchanged)
Miasma (range) [detriment] – Enemy units with at least one model within the (range) value of the base/Hull of a model with this Special Rule suffer the listed [detriment].
Move Through Cover – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule ignores the distance penalties for Move/Run/Assault moves through Difficult Terrain.
Night Vision – (unchanged)
One Use Only/One Shot Only – (unchanged)
Outflank – During deployment, players can declare that any unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player may choose either their own table edge, or the table edge to their left/right. The Outflanking models then move onto the table from that table edge as described for other Reserves.
If a unit with Outflank deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Outflank along with their Transport.
Pinning – (unchanged)
Poisoned [X+] – When a model/weapon with this Special Rule hits, it always wounds on a fixed number (in brackets) unless a lower result would be required.
Unless otherwise stated, Poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1. The Poisoned Special Rule has no effect against vehicles.
Precision Shots/Precision Strikes – (unchanged)
Preferred Enemy (target) – (unchanged, though I really want to find an excuse to get rid of this USR)
Psyker [Mastery Level X] – (unchanged)
Brotherhood of Psykers – (unchanged)
Force – (unchanged)
Psychic Pilot – (unchanged)
Rampage [X] – (unchanged)
Relentless – (unchanged)
Rending – For each To Wound roll of a 6+ made by a model/weapon with this Special Rule, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of its Toughness. Those Wounds are resolved at AP 2.
Against vehicles, each Armor Penetration roll of a 6+ adds an additional +1 to the total. These hits are resolved at AP 2.
Scout – (unchanged; note Outflank changes)
Skyfire – (unchanged)
Stealth [X+] (terrain) – A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule receives an X+ Cover Save against shooting attacks.
This Special Rule is often presented as pertaining only to a specific terrain type, such as Stealth [X+] (Woods) or Stealth [X+] (Ruins). If this is the case, the unit only gains the benefit whilst it is in the terrain of the specified type.
Stomp [X] – Models with this Special Rule that are engaged in combat may make a number (X) of special attacks called Stomps, which are made in addition to their regular attacks. Stomp attacks are always resolved at the Initiative 1 step. Stomps do not grant the additional Pile In moves.
Stomps are resolved by placing the 3” Blast so that it is touching, but not over, the base/hull of the Stomping model. Each model underneath the 3” Blast takes a single Strength 6 AP 4 automatic hit.
If the Stomping model is capable of making more than a single Stomp attack, then each subsequent attack is resolved in the same manner—however the 3” Blast must be placed within 3” of wherever the previous Stomp was placed. Note that the Stomping model itself does not move.
Casualties caused by Stomps count towards Combat Resolution. In addition, the Stomping model may not Stomp units that it is not currently engaged in combat with; its attention is focused on the enemy it is presently fighting.
Stubborn – (unchanged)
Swarm – If a model with this Special Rule suffers an unsaved wound from a Blast (any size) or Template, each unsaved wound is multiplied to 2 unsaved wounds instead unless that wound has the Instant Death Special Rule.
Swift [X+] – A model with this Special Rule receives an X+ Cover Save against shooting attacks, provided in the preceding friendly Movement Phase the model was moved its entire Move characteristic.
Template Weapons – (unchanged)
Terrain Master – A unit containing at least one model with this Special Rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
Torrent – (unchanged)
Twin-Linked – (unchanged)
Unstoppable Behemoth – Unsaved wounds with the Instant Death Special Rule do not reduce models with this Special Rule to 0 wounds. Furthermore effects that would destroy/remove from play models with this Special Rule, without removing its last wound, do not. Instead, such attacks inflict +1 more wound than the amount they otherwise would—generally 2 wounds in total.
In addition, attacks with the Poisoned [X+] Special Rule will only cause a wound on a roll of 6+ against models with the Unstoppable Behemoth Special Rule, unless the attack’s Strength would cause a Wound on a lower result.
Unstoppable Machine – Effects that would destroy/remove from play models with this Special Rule, without removing its last Hull Point, do not. Instead, such attacks remove +1 more Hull Points than they normally would—generally 2 Hull Points in total.
In addition, attacks with the Haywire [X+] Special Rule will only cause a Glance Hit on a roll of 6+ against models with the Unstoppable Behemoth Special Rule, unless the attack’s Strength would cause a Glancing/Penetrating Hit on a lower result.
Unwieldy – (unchanged)
Vector Strikes [X] – At the end of the Movement Phase, nominate one enemy unit not Locked in Combat or one building that the Vector Striking model has moved over that turn. That unit takes X automatic hits at the Vector Striking model’s unmodified strength and AP null, unless otherwise stated. These attacks do not benefit from any of the model’s other Special Rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned, Rending, etc.) unless otherwise stated.
Against buildings/vehicles these hits are resolved against the target’s Side Armor.
Note that models incapable of moving over enemy units will receive no benefit from the Vector Strike Special Rule. Furthermore, the Vector Striking unit counts as having fired one weapon in its following Shooting Phase. However, any additional weapons it may fire that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike.
Vortex – (unchanged)
Also, here are some preliminary ideas for some of the specific factions.
Orks
Spoiler:
Since this is my personal army, help in keeping them in line would be especially appreciated. I don't want my bias to make them too powerful.
‘Ere We Go! – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may reroll failed charges.
Mob Rule – A unit composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may always choose to replace their Leadership Characteristic with the number of models remaining in the unit, to a maximum of 10.
If the unit has 11 or more models remaining, then it gain the Fearless Special Rule as well.
Ramshackle – Once per game, at the beginning of the Ork player’s turn, a vehicle with this Special Rule may choose to remove a single Vehicle Damage Condition at the expense of losing a single Hull Point. The crew has jettisoned the extraneous pieces causing the problem! A vehicle may make use of this ability to destroy itself, in which case the enemy player receives Victory Points as per the Mission Rules—vehicles destroyed in this manner always become Wrecks.
Waaagh! – Once per game, at the start of any of your turns after the first, you may declare a Waaagh! Until the beginning of your following turn all friendly units made up entirely of models with the ‘Ere We Go! Special Rule immediately gain the following benefits:
They may Charge in the Assault Phase even if they Ran in the Shooting Phase
They add +1 to all Feel No Pain checks
They add +1 to Manifest Warp Charges for Powers of the Waaagh! Disciplines
Units with the Impeded (Run) Special Rule replace it with the Impact Hits [1] Special Rule
In addition, Ork units/models gain +1 Strength, but lose Furious Charge. I also like the idea of orks losing their 6+ armor for FNP(6+), with Painboys boosting that. There should be two Powers of the Waaagh! Disciplines: Brutal but Kunnin' and Kunnin' but Brutal. I had a thread about these ideas before, so it might seem familiar if you saw that.
Sisters of Battle
Spoiler:
I really like the old idea of Faith Points, so bringing that back with a more streamlined system would be neat. I'd also like to work in some kind of a "Blessing" rule as per the old Brettonia "Blessing of the Lady" though I haven't finagled a way to make that work yet. Here's what I have so far:
Abhorrence of the Impure [X] – A model with this Special Rule may attempt to Deny the Witch, despite not being a Psyker. During the enemy Psychic Phase, this model generates X Warp Charges which may be used to Deny the Witch, which will succeed on rolls of 5+.
Acts of Faith – A unit composed entirely of models with the Acts of Faith Special Rule may attempt to beseech the Emperor for aid, taking the form of an Act of Faith. This may be attempted at the beginning of either players’ turn; the effects of which will last until the end of that turn.
Attempting an Act of Faith requires a successful Leadership check, and remove a certain number of Faith Points from the Faith Pool (see the Faithful [X] Special Rule). The following Acts of Faith are available to all units with the Acts of Faith Special Rule, though some units have access to their own unique Acts:
The Passion – [1] If successful, the unit immediately regroups and may act as normal during the ensuing turn. The unit has the Stubborn Special Rule. If the unit already had the Stubborn Special Rule, it gains the Fearless Special Rule instead.
Hand of the Emperor – [1] (some CC buff, but deciding what is the question)
Light of the Emperor – [1] (ranged buff, alternate of Hand)
Faithful [X] – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule have a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and add X Faith Points to the Sisters of Battle’s Faith Pool at the start of the game.
Martyrdom [X] – Models with this Special Rule must always Issue and Accept Challenges in close combat, if possible.
When a model with this Special Rule loses its last wound, all friendly units composed entirely of models with the Faithful [X] Special Rule automatically succeed all Morale/Pinning tests until the end of the next Sisters of Battle turn. Additionally, +X Faith Points are added to the Faith Pool.
I'd like to give Abhorrence... to Priests as well as another HQ option (maybe called a Sanctifier/Purifier?) who can use Faith Points to burn enemies with holy fire. I'd also like to give them a weaker non-Sister Troops option, such as Ecclesiastical Militia/Fanatics. I'll need some more ideas for all this.
Grey Knights
Spoiler:
Only rule I have so far:
Daemonbane – Models with this Special Rule will always hit a model with the Daemon Special Rule on a 6+ in close combat, unless a lesser result would be required. Note that this means models with this Special Rule will never automatically fail to hit such targets in close combat.
Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
I'm of the opinion that CSM require a massive overhaul not just in rules but in concept too. CSM should be exceptionally skilled veterans, and very difficult to unnerve, due to their time in the warp. However, they should always be outnumbered (even by normal Space Marines), and be working with very old and dilapidated tech. As such, they would not have the best gear, but have the best guys.
Hatred (Space Marines)
Millennia of Loathing – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule may choose to automatically succeed or fail any Morale checks they are called upon to make. In addition, units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule are not destroyed when caught by a Sweeping Advance, but remain Locked in Combat instead.
Warpspite – Units composed entirely of models with this Special Rule must choose one of the following three options at the beginning of their turn:
1. Act as normal
2. Relinquish their Movement Phase to fire their weapons twice during the Shooting Phase
3. Relinquish their Movement and Shooting Phase to double their Attacks characteristic until the beginning of the next Chaos Space Marine player turn
These rules aren't perfect, but I think they're moving in the right direction at the very least.
Tyranids
Spoiler:
Instinctual Behavior – Never roll: each "table" has only one result.
Feed – Move toward and attempt to charge closest enemy unit.
Hunt – Go to Ground in Movement Phase, fire at closest enemy unit in Shooting Phase.
Lurk – Move toward closest Table Edge/Terrain in Movement Phase, whichever is closer. May not shoot or charge.
Shadow in the Warp – Miasma[12"] (-1 to Manifest Warp Charges and -3 Leadership (Psykers only))
Synapse – Aura [12"] (Ignore effects of Instinctual Behavior and +1 FNP (providing FNP (6+) base))
A bunch of units also need help (Tyrannofex, Pyrovore, Haruspex, etc.), and I'd like to tone down Flyrants also.
Lots of stuff to go through here, but I think we're making good headway. On the list of things to address in the basic rules next:
Vehicles (likely going to remain similar to where they are currently, with the exception of the Vehicle Damage Table changes...consider a more unified statline that includes WS/S/I/etc. with 0s?)
Snap Shots (have them allow Blast/Template weapons to fire? That would be easier than replacing all of their instances with "resolved at BS 1")
Overwatch (probably going to be kept as is, as the current system is easy and offer some tactical opportunities without Interceptor-style interruptions)
After that, I believe it will just be juggling some points/profiles here and there; the task of giving each faction more interesting Army Special Rules; and the inevitable consideration of Formations.
Colonel Bork wrote: MagicJuggler I'll have to give your formation ideas a closer look soon. At the moment, I decided I would convert these rules into the forum and add a change-log. So from now on, modification to the rules are going to be listed there are well. I will edit the Original Post after completing this one.
Fair enough! Core rule cleanup from the bottom-up, then save formations for later (wheras starting with formations would be top-down). I used to play Orks, and CSM were my main 7e army, but I can give you my "two cents" on them and a few others.
General: Some assorted ones:
-All characters/sergeant equivalents could use an extra wound so they have 2 at least! Pistols and Power Weapons (Sword/axe/lance) could also use a minor discount.
Marines in General: Several minor items:
-Honestly, I would be good with every Marine being 15 points base, with Bolter, Pistol, and Chainsword. It would simplify a lot, and make WYSIWYG less headache-inducing.
-Terminators are either 40-45 pts, with 2 Wounds. Storm Bolters are Assault 3, Range 18. Heavy Weapons are 2 in 5. Chaos is somewhat cheaper, because Combi-Bolters and Power Weapons instead of Fists.
-Dreadnought Missile Launchers fire 2 shots. Can't let Terminators and Land Speeders have all the fun!
-For Loyalists, rather than a Dreadnought unit and a Venerable Dreadnought unit, *one* Dreadnought in a unit may be upgraded to Venerable, gaining the (Character) subtype. This would preclude having a Pilot for that unit.
Chaos: In practice, I found Chaos ended up "working best" as an "exotic generalists" army in concept. Solo Obliterators, Rhinos with Dirge Casters, Termicide, and Heldrakes were all versatile yet abnormal. Sadly, this left little emphasis on the core CSMs themselves. Not only that, but their army *really* suffered under a conventional FOC, because all their shooting was in Heavy Support, and all their "fast units" were in Fast Attack (or HQs or HS Maulerfiends). Their transport was "just a transport", and the army had minimal ability to engage in firefights at 24". Several thoughts include:
-Chaos Plasma weapons Get Really Hot. This means they fire an extra shot beyond normal, but must make 2 saves for every 1 they roll.
-A Rhino or Dreadnought can replace its combi-bolters with conventional Special Weapons. Chaos Dreadnoughts can take 2 Missile Launchers.
-Chaos Cultists need a rework, and options, period.
-Chosen can take 2 Heavy Weapons, or can take Bikes/Jump Packs.
Sisters: They could use a radical unit rework, IMO.
Tau: Random thoughts include:
-Aun'shi is pointless. I figured a "quick fix" would be to make him
Suits should be 30 base with 3 wounds.
-Consolidate Drones. Replace "pair of Gun Drones" on vehicles with "pair of Drone racks", which can be tailored for pre-game.
-Riptides should be slightly cheaper, but have their killiness dramatically reduced. Thinking 180 -> 160 pts, but the Ion Accelerator becomes AP 3 (2 w/ Nova), and the HBC becomes 6/9.
-Hi-Yield Missile Pods are Heavy 2/Blast. SMS is Heavy 2/Precision Shots/Ignore Cover.
-Enforcer Suit is no longer a Signature System, but an upgrade available to the Crisis Commander and/or Crisis Bodyguards.
-Coldstar Suits, and any Shas'vre have access to Signature Systems.
-ATS becomes "Precision Shots;if you already have Precision Shots, you trigger them on 5+", akin to the 6e codex.
-Longstrike is an HQ, and becomes a (Character) with Pilot(Hammerhead)[Tank Hunter, Preferred Enemy(Imperial Guard)].
-Kroot Shapers can take Power Weapons.
-Fusion Blades are 30 points, but count as a single TL Fusion Blaster/melee weapon and a single hardpoint.
-Vespid Neutron Blasters gain Rad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/10 21:12:03
Colonel Bork wrote: MagicJuggler I'll have to give your formation ideas a closer look soon. At the moment, I decided I would convert these rules into the forum and add a change-log. So from now on, modification to the rules are going to be listed there are well. I will edit the Original Post after completing this one.
Fair enough! Core rule cleanup from the bottom-up, then save formations for later (wheras starting with formations would be top-down). I used to play Orks, and CSM were my main 7e army, but I can give you my "two cents" on them and a few others.
Yeah man, anything helps.
MagicJuggler wrote: General: Some assorted ones:
-All characters/sergeant equivalents could use an extra wound so they have 2 at least! Pistols and Power Weapons (Sword/axe/lance) could also use a minor discount.
I'd prefer to make Characters less important than more - for example I was even considering removing their ability to use Look Out, Sir! and leaving it for Independent Characters alone.
MagicJuggler wrote: Marines in General: Several minor items:
-Honestly, I would be good with every Marine being 15 points base, with Bolter, Pistol, and Chainsword. It would simplify a lot, and make WYSIWYG less headache-inducing.
-Terminators are either 40-45 pts, with 2 Wounds. Storm Bolters are Assault 3, Range 18. Heavy Weapons are 2 in 5. Chaos is somewhat cheaper, because Combi-Bolters and Power Weapons instead of Fists.
-Dreadnought Missile Launchers fire 2 shots. Can't let Terminators and Land Speeders have all the fun!
-For Loyalists, rather than a Dreadnought unit and a Venerable Dreadnought unit, *one* Dreadnought in a unit may be upgraded to Venerable, gaining the (Character) subtype. This would preclude having a Pilot for that unit.
I like all of these adjustments.
MagicJuggler wrote: Chaos: In practice, I found Chaos ended up "working best" as an "exotic generalists" army in concept. Solo Obliterators, Rhinos with Dirge Casters, Termicide, and Heldrakes were all versatile yet abnormal. Sadly, this left little emphasis on the core CSMs themselves. Not only that, but their army *really* suffered under a conventional FOC, because all their shooting was in Heavy Support, and all their "fast units" were in Fast Attack (or HQs or HS Maulerfiends). Their transport was "just a transport", and the army had minimal ability to engage in firefights at 24". Several thoughts include:
-Chaos Plasma weapons Get Really Hot. This means they fire an extra shot beyond normal, but must make 2 saves for every 1 they roll.
-A Rhino or Dreadnought can replace its combi-bolters with conventional Special Weapons. Chaos Dreadnoughts can take 2 Missile Launchers.
-Chaos Cultists need a rework, and options, period.
-Chosen can take 2 Heavy Weapons, or can take Bikes/Jump Packs.
I do agree with this design philosophy, but would prefer if CSM stayed very elite while also being versatile. How did the rules I proposed sound to you?
I also though that a base CSM would have stats along the lines of: WS 5 / BS 5 / S 4 / T 4 / I 5 / A 2 / Ld. 9 / Sv. 3+ and costing 24 points each. Seem alright?
I do like Flash Gitz being their own unit, personally. All they need is 'Eavy Armor for free and weapon mods, then maybe a slight points decrease. I like the idea of giving Gitfindas a different benefit and BS 3 naturally.
Hence the need to add additional options and play styles. Sisters seem rather decent, but very one-note: so options and more interesting Army Special Rules will help alleviate that.
I see them having several major builds: solid blocks of Battle Sisters assembled en masse with specialist support; a fast moving and assault-focused force with lots of Repentia; or mechanized strike force with lots of flamers/meltas and armored support.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tau: Random thoughts include:
-Aun'shi is pointless. I figured a "quick fix" would be to make him
Suits should be 30 base with 3 wounds.
-Consolidate Drones. Replace "pair of Gun Drones" on vehicles with "pair of Drone racks", which can be tailored for pre-game.
-Riptides should be slightly cheaper, but have their killiness dramatically reduced. Thinking 180 -> 160 pts, but the Ion Accelerator becomes AP 3 (2 w/ Nova), and the HBC becomes 6/9.
-Hi-Yield Missile Pods are Heavy 2/Blast. SMS is Heavy 2/Precision Shots/Ignore Cover.
-Enforcer Suit is no longer a Signature System, but an upgrade available to the Crisis Commander and/or Crisis Bodyguards.
-Coldstar Suits, and any Shas'vre have access to Signature Systems.
-ATS becomes "Precision Shots;if you already have Precision Shots, you trigger them on 5+", akin to the 6e codex.
-Longstrike is an HQ, and becomes a (Character) with Pilot(Hammerhead)[Tank Hunter, Preferred Enemy(Imperial Guard)].
-Kroot Shapers can take Power Weapons.
-Fusion Blades are 30 points, but count as a single TL Fusion Blaster/melee weapon and a single hardpoint.
-Vespid Neutron Blasters gain Rad.
My limited knowledge with Tau leads me to leave them to others, who understand them better. I do like the idea of consolidating Drones, perhaps allowing all models that have access to them be able to freely choose among all variants.
Their strongest units could use some points/abilities reductions, to make them useful without being overwhelming.
Formations, for the most part, were only a problem in that their Special Rules got out of control AND they weren't Command Benefits. If they kept them light ala CAD Benefits, or MAYBE the old Doctrines, that might be a consideration.
If there is a complaint about spamming a unit, the problem is the unit, not the Formation itself.
My distaste for Formations is based upon their lack of specificity, and ability to circumvent limitations more than anything else. A fundamental issue with the ability to take more than once detachment is that Formations and the like no longer lock you into a particular play-style. Therefore, as I said above, 8E basis with additional problem-solving could assist in alleviating this issue.
Where is the lack of specificity in Formations? They were far more specific in both organization and intent than any other type of Detachment created. Indeed, their specificity is what allows them to circumvent "limitations" more than anything else. Heck, a Formation's Special Rules gave one a pretty good idea as to what the intent of the Formation was.
If you discount the lack of Command Benefits/Special Rules, 8e Detachment system is even more obnoxious in allowing one to circumvent limitations than almost anything we've seen in 7e. You can name almost any Formation and recreate it in some form in 8e.
Colonel Bork wrote:For example, the Spearhead Detachment requires that all compulsory Heavy Support units be either Vehicles, or have the Massive Special Rule (using my own variation here). The same could be for Spearhead detachments, where compulsory Fast Attack units must have a Move of at least 12" (or something like that). Then, perhaps a rule where non-Primary Detachments may only include as many as half the filled spots of the Primary Detachment - so if my Combined Arms detachment included 8 total units, then I could only take as many as 4 choice per non-Primary Detachment. I'm just spitballing here, but I think the idea is clear enough.
The problem lies in the fact that people will still choose what they want as a Primary Detachment. They may choose to go with the Spearhead as the Primary, and then back it up with a couple Fast Attack detachments which gets around your limitation.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote:Formations, for the most part, were only a problem in that their Special Rules got out of control AND they weren't Command Benefits. If they kept them light ala CAD Benefits, or MAYBE the old Doctrines, that might be a consideration.
If there is a complaint about spamming a unit, the problem is the unit, not the Formation itself.
My distaste for Formations is based upon their lack of specificity, and ability to circumvent limitations more than anything else. A fundamental issue with the ability to take more than once detachment is that Formations and the like no longer lock you into a particular play-style. Therefore, as I said above, 8E basis with additional problem-solving could assist in alleviating this issue.
Where is the lack of specificity in Formations? They were far more specific in both organization and intent than any other type of Detachment created. Indeed, their specificity is what allows them to circumvent "limitations" more than anything else. Heck, a Formation's Special Rules gave one a pretty good idea as to what the intent of the Formation was.
If you discount the lack of Command Benefits/Special Rules, 8e Detachment system is even more obnoxious in allowing one to circumvent limitations than almost anything we've seen in 7e. You can name almost any Formation and recreate it in some form in 8e.
Perhaps I was not clear enough: I am fine with Formations that require specific units (for example a Dire Avenger Shrine). The Formations that I dislike provide various options that may be chosen freely, for example several Tau Formations - if memory serves, at least. I did mention that I do not like lists that spam a only several units, and especially not ones that spam a single unit entirely.
Colonel Bork wrote:For example, the Spearhead Detachment requires that all compulsory Heavy Support units be either Vehicles, or have the Massive Special Rule (using my own variation here). The same could be for Spearhead detachments, where compulsory Fast Attack units must have a Move of at least 12" (or something like that). Then, perhaps a rule where non-Primary Detachments may only include as many as half the filled spots of the Primary Detachment - so if my Combined Arms detachment included 8 total units, then I could only take as many as 4 choice per non-Primary Detachment. I'm just spitballing here, but I think the idea is clear enough.
The problem lies in the fact that people will still choose what they want as a Primary Detachment. They may choose to go with the Spearhead as the Primary, and then back it up with a couple Fast Attack detachments which gets around your limitation.
Yes, my intent was that a player would be able to select their Primary Detachment - that's the idea. As I said before, limitations are required for this system to work, and these limitations have to be logical and not feel arbitrary as well. Do you have any ideas as to how this might be achieved? What you've written here does not come off as particularly helpful.
With this in mind, let's address the concept of these Detachments. Post-19th century warfare, as per my understanding, revolved around separate divisions of a military force that would act in unison under the guidance of a commanding officer - thus forming the doctrine of Combined Arms. Since the combat of Warhammer 40k can be perhaps best characterized as some amalgamation of the attrition warfare from the First World War and roughly 14th to 16th centuries grand/combined armies strategy. In some ways, Warhammer 40k seems quite Napoleonic to me.
In order to represent Detachments that specialize in either "generalist" strategies versus more specific approaches, I would posit something like this:
Primary Detachment - An army must include one Primary Detachment, from which the army's Warlord is selected. From there, any army may include up to one additional Secondary Detachment per 1000 points. Thus, a 1000 points army would include 1 Primary and up to 1 Secondary, while a 2000 point army would include 1 Primary and up to 2 Secondary Detachments. The following options are available as Primary Detachments:
Combined Arms Section, Major - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 3 Troops. Optional: 0-1 HQ, 0-3 Troops, 0-3 Elites, 0-3 Fast Attack, 0-3 Heavy Support.
Benefits: Objective Secured.
Limitations: none.
Armored Column, Major - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 3 Heavy Support. Optional: 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-3 Heavy Support.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Heavy Support choices must be either Vehicles or models/units with the Massive Special Rule.
Artillery Battery, Major - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 3 Heavy Support Optional: 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-3 Heavy Support.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Heavy Support choices must be models/units with the Man-Packed Gun (weapon) Special Rule.
Cavalry Regiment, Major - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 3 Fast Attack. Optional: 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, 0-3 Fast Attack.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Units must either have a Move of 12" or greater, or purchase a Transport.
Secondary Detachment - The following options are available as Secondary Detachments:
Auxiliary Section - Compulsory: 1 HQ or 1 Troop or 1 Elite or 1 Fast Attack or 1 Heavy Support.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: none.
Combined Arms Section, Minor - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 2 Troops. Optional: 0-1 Troops, 0-1 Elites, 0-1 Fast Attack, 0-1 Heavy Support.
Benefits: Objective Secured.
Limitations: none.
Armored Column, Minor - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 2 Heavy Support. Optional: 0-1 Heavy Support.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Heavy Support choices must be either Vehicles or models/units with the Massive Special Rule.
Artillery Battery, Minor - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 2 Heavy Support Optional: 0-1 Heavy Support.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Heavy Support choices must be models/units with the Man-Packed Gun (weapon) Special Rule.
Cavalry Regiment, Minor - Compulsory: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 2 Fast Attack. Optional: 0-1 Fast Attack.
Benefits: none.
Limitations: Units must either have a Move of 12" or greater, or purchase a Transport.
Colonel Bork wrote: I'd prefer to make Characters less important than more - for example I was even considering removing their ability to use Look Out, Sir! and leaving it for Independent Characters alone.
Currently, the game favors "go big or go home" for loading up characters, simply because all Wargear costs the same. Since generally only the HQs can take multiple wounds/invulnerable saves/etc, and have better Initiative to boot, they are the first to get weapon upgrades anyway. For Marines in general, if you are buying an upgrade for your Sergeant, it generally is either a Combi-Weapon or a Meltabomb, and that's it.
For Tau, the Shas'ui/Shas'vre are rare upgrades, and Eldar generally won't bother with Warlocks of a non-Conclave loadout.
I do agree with this design philosophy, but would prefer if CSM stayed very elite while also being versatile. How did the rules I proposed sound to you?
Colonel Bork wrote: I'd prefer to make Characters less important than more - for example I was even considering removing their ability to use Look Out, Sir! and leaving it for Independent Characters alone.
I also though that a base CSM would have stats along the lines of: WS 5 / BS 5 / S 4 / T 4 / I 5 / A 2 / Ld. 9 / Sv. 3+ and costing 24 points each. Seem alright?
So...twice their base point cost? Ehh...I get where you're coming from, but it does feel weird to turn Chaos into EVIL Movie Marines. Most their issues I feel are cleanup-related, costing Chaos Boons so they can be bought rather than rolled, etc. Maybe if you're making WS/BS differences more granular, then WS/BS 5/A2 could be stock for all Marine Elites (with similar differentials among other army Elites?). That may be a more radical discussion however.
Colonel Bork wrote: I do like Flash Gitz being their own unit, personally. All they need is 'Eavy Armor for free and weapon mods, then maybe a slight points decrease. I like the idea of giving Gitfindas a different benefit and BS 3 naturally.
What were your thoughts on the Speedsta? (On another note, Chariots should probably be called War Rigs. Witness!)
Colonel Bork wrote: I see them having several major builds: solid blocks of Battle Sisters assembled en masse with specialist support; a fast moving and assault-focused force with lots of Repentia; or mechanized strike force with lots of flamers/meltas and armored support.
Getting the Repressor would be nice admittedly. At the time, my most radical idea was to eliminate the standard Battle Sister Squad. The army composition would be:
Troops: Cheaper Repentia, Dominions (no longer "Ignore Cover", but could move D6 After Shooting), and Sisters Vigilant (Pistol+Slabshield Sisters. Super-resilient for the price, mediocre attack)
Elites: Celestians (they do get Ignore Cover from their Sabbat-Pattern Helms), Sisters Prononati (think Sister Scouts - Stalker Boltguns, Demo Charges, etc), and Sister Madrigal War Choirs (A "support/bard" unit that can add "chaser" effects to nearby Acts of Faith, or debuff foes).
Fast Attack: Penitent Engines go here, with some movement boosts. Seraphim Pistols can be used as a Hammer of Wrath attack. Add the Incinerator, a "Stripped down" fast Immolator with no transport capacity, but FA 13 and better guns.
Heavy Support: Retributors get Relentless. The Exorcist becomes S8, AP 2, D3/Blast/Barrage* (cannot fire direct). In an army full of S8 AP 1 shots, there should be just some additional variety. May purchase a Launch Servitor to fire D6 shots once per game. New Unit: The Golgothan. The Golgothan is a mashup halfway between Karamazov's Throne, and a Dreadknight. It would serve as an "anchorpiece" unit, while getting the option to replace one Fist/Underslung weapon with a "big gun".
HQs: More minor options. Other than the current Minor Sister Orders, having a Sister Planixium Relic-bearer (a techmarine analogue) would be neat, as would the option for a Sister Unrepentant: Imagine a Repentia that wouldn't die, so they hopped her up on Frenzon, let her dual-wield Eviscerators (with attached flamers to boot!). She would be one part assassin, one part wrecking ball. Think Maximus in Hordes.
Maybe the ideas may be a little off, but the idea is to make the army more varied, and easier to tell units apart via WYSIWYG. As opposed to how we now get:
HQ: 5 Command Squad Celestians, Immolator
Troops: 5 Battle Sisters, Immolator
Elites: 5 Celestians, Immolator
Fast Attack: 5 Dominions, Immolator
Heavy Support: 5 Retributors, Immolator
Colonel Bork wrote: My limited knowledge with Tau leads me to leave them to others, who understand them better. I do like the idea of consolidating Drones, perhaps allowing all models that have access to them be able to freely choose among all variants.
Their strongest units could use some points/abilities reductions, to make them useful without being overwhelming.
If you look at old Tau hatethreads, you'll notice three different popular items:
-Riptide Wings are omfgwtfbbqhax.
-Interceptor is cheap, and hard counters Deep Strike.
-Tau are allies of Convenience with Eldar.
The most notable example of these three things coming together was Nova 2016, when Nick Nanivati ran a Riptide Wing and Culexus Assassin alongside mass Eldar Jetbikes and Warp Spiders, with a single Skatach Wraithknight. Since Nova had a "only one item from FW" clause, this meant people went for the "biggest" option available.
However, Tau are a glass cannon with more cannon and less glass. They win big or lose big. They *do* have quite a few good units, but it's about tweaking now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 14:15:10
Formations as used need to go, they broke the game more than anything else.
That said there is one use for them, and that's to provide a different force org chart. Want to run a deathwing army of nothing but terminators, here's a "formation" that let's you use just those units. No free transports, no extra special rules.
Then tidy up the USR's and put them all in the rulebook, including all those hidden away in codex's and the game would be looking much better.
Also avoid random wherever possible. Don't make things such as destroyer weapons d3 damage. Decide on how powerful they are and give them a fixed stat. So a turbo laser on a warhound could be 2 auto wounds/penetrating hits, the larger version on a reaver 3 etc.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
Tamereth wrote: Formations as used need to go, they broke the game more than anything else.
That said there is one use for them, and that's to provide a different force org chart. Want to run a deathwing army of nothing but terminators, here's a "formation" that let's you use just those units. No free transports, no extra special rules.
Then tidy up the USR's and put them all in the rulebook, including all those hidden away in codex's and the game would be looking much better.
Also avoid random wherever possible. Don't make things such as destroyer weapons d3 damage. Decide on how powerful they are and give them a fixed stat. So a turbo laser on a warhound could be 2 auto wounds/penetrating hits, the larger version on a reaver 3 etc.
No, they didn't. Miscosted units were far, far worse. Formations of miscosted units were even worse than that, but the original sin was miscosting the unit to begin with. For example assault from deep strike was great for CSM, because they could use raptors, but BA had to use terminators and sanguinary guard, which were both horribly overcosted, and therefore, useless. At the end of 7th, there was still nothing the BA could vs scatterbikes that worked. Scatterbikes were too efficient because I had zero undercosted units to fight back with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 15:47:37
Amazed that anyone would defend formations. Yakface hit the nail on the head earlier in the thread, a tactical marine should be a tactical marine. One shouldn't be better than another just because he has been fielded as part of a free formation. I should be able to look at the models, see a tactical squad and know what it does. Not wonder what extra special rules it may have.
Are some undercosted units also a problem, sure. But fix that issue by fixing the under costs units. Formations don't fix undercosted units, you said yourself formations let you take more of them!
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
I'd prefer to make Characters less important than more - for example I was even considering removing their ability to use Look Out, Sir! and leaving it for Independent Characters alone.
Currently, the game favors "go big or go home" for loading up characters, simply because all Wargear costs the same. Since generally only the HQs can take multiple wounds/invulnerable saves/etc, and have better Initiative to boot, they are the first to get weapon upgrades anyway. For Marines in general, if you are buying an upgrade for your Sergeant, it generally is either a Combi-Weapon or a Meltabomb, and that's it.
For Tau, the Shas'ui/Shas'vre are rare upgrades, and Eldar generally won't bother with Warlocks of a non-Conclave loadout.
Well, that just means that the cost of wargear must be addressed. However, a balancing act must be maintained; if these special weapons become too cheap then there is no reason to ever not take them. My thought would be to return non-incremental point costs: by the end of 7th, upgrades seemed to always cost increments of 5 points. Living ruleset will help too, since these point costs could be shuffled every so often as needed. Here are my immediate thoughts:
"Space Marine" Type Model Power Weapon...10 points Character/15 points Independent Character
Power Fist...15 points Character/20 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...5 points each
Combi-Weapon...10 points each
"Imperial Guard" Type Model Power Weapon...5 points Character/8 points Independent Character
Power Fist...8 points Character/12 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...3 points each
Once more, I don't know enough about Eldar/Tau to fairly judge how their upgrades might cost. As such, I'll fall back on the assistance of people who know better than I.
I'd prefer to make Characters less important than more - for example I was even considering removing their ability to use Look Out, Sir! and leaving it for Independent Characters alone.
I also thought that a base CSM would have stats along the lines of: WS 5 / BS 5 / S 4 / T 4 / I 5 / A 2 / Ld. 9 / Sv. 3+ and costing 24 points each. Seem alright?
So...twice their base point cost? Ehh...I get where you're coming from, but it does feel weird to turn Chaos into EVIL Movie Marines. Most their issues I feel are cleanup-related, costing Chaos Boons so they can be bought rather than rolled, etc. Maybe if you're making WS/BS differences more granular, then WS/BS 5/A2 could be stock for all Marine Elites (with similar differentials among other army Elites?). That may be a more radical discussion however.
My take is that CSM, even base CSM, should be more elite than those of other armies. Those Chaos-worshiping Legions have been alive for 10,000 years in one of the most dangerous places in existence (the Warp). Even their most basic dudes are super elite compared to anyone else, since they have been living and fighting for far longer. Of course, this would only be in relation to the original Chaos Legions and other similarly aged traitors, with perhaps different rules for later renegades.
Furthermore, this would only elicit a remake of the CSM Codex, rather than many other Codices. I think many will agree that even after Traitor Legions, some additional assistance and reorganization would greatly benefit that faction - much like Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, etc.
I do like Flash Gitz being their own unit, personally. All they need is 'Eavy Armor for free and weapon mods, then maybe a slight points decrease. I like the idea of giving Gitfindas a different benefit and BS 3 naturally.
What were your thoughts on the Speedsta? (On another note, Chariots should probably be called War Rigs. Witness!)
It definitely seemed neat, but might clash with the Junka in style if nothing else. Regarding Chariots, that's another "type" that I would very much like to find an excuse to get rid of: they can be represented as Transports with X many Impact Hits instead of their own Special Rules. Furthermore, I am not a fan of how hits against those vehicles may be allocated against the rider or the transport. It seems hard to believe that whatever strikes those vehicles could hit the rider rather than his mount.
Maybe another USR for these types of Transports, that allow the passengers to fight in close combat? I could see Dark Eldar and maybe Orks getting that on some of their things too.
I see them having several major builds: solid blocks of Battle Sisters assembled en masse with specialist support; a fast moving and assault-focused force with lots of Repentia; or mechanized strike force with lots of flamers/meltas and armored support.
Getting the Repressor would be nice admittedly. At the time, my most radical idea was to eliminate the standard Battle Sister Squad. The army composition would be:
Troops: Cheaper Repentia, Dominions (no longer "Ignore Cover", but could move D6 After Shooting), and Sisters Vigilant (Pistol+Slabshield Sisters. Super-resilient for the price, mediocre attack)
Elites: Celestians (they do get Ignore Cover from their Sabbat-Pattern Helms), Sisters Prononati (think Sister Scouts - Stalker Boltguns, Demo Charges, etc), and Sister Madrigal War Choirs (A "support/bard" unit that can add "chaser" effects to nearby Acts of Faith, or debuff foes).
Fast Attack: Penitent Engines go here, with some movement boosts. Seraphim Pistols can be used as a Hammer of Wrath attack. Add the Incinerator, a "Stripped down" fast Immolator with no transport capacity, but FA 13 and better guns.
Heavy Support: Retributors get Relentless. The Exorcist becomes S8, AP 2, D3/Blast/Barrage* (cannot fire direct). In an army full of S8 AP 1 shots, there should be just some additional variety. May purchase a Launch Servitor to fire D6 shots once per game. New Unit: The Golgothan. The Golgothan is a mashup halfway between Karamazov's Throne, and a Dreadknight. It would serve as an "anchorpiece" unit, while getting the option to replace one Fist/Underslung weapon with a "big gun".
HQs: More minor options. Other than the current Minor Sister Orders, having a Sister Planixium Relic-bearer (a techmarine analogue) would be neat, as would the option for a Sister Unrepentant: Imagine a Repentia that wouldn't die, so they hopped her up on Frenzon, let her dual-wield Eviscerators (with attached flamers to boot!). She would be one part assassin, one part wrecking ball. Think Maximus in Hordes.
Maybe the ideas may be a little off, but the idea is to make the army more varied, and easier to tell units apart via WYSIWYG. As opposed to how we now get:
HQ: 5 Command Squad Celestians, Immolator
Troops: 5 Battle Sisters, Immolator
Elites: 5 Celestians, Immolator
Fast Attack: 5 Dominions, Immolator
Heavy Support: 5 Retributors, Immolator
Lot's of cool ideas here! I like Repentia as Troops, and Vigilants seem like a very cool idea. Dominions I feel should stay where they are or be transferred to Elites. Basic Sisters/Repentia/Vigilants would be their Troops options. The Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support/HQ ideas are all ace though, and I'm definitely adding them to my design notes for further consideration.
My limited knowledge with Tau leads me to leave them to others, who understand them better. I do like the idea of consolidating Drones, perhaps allowing all models that have access to them be able to freely choose among all variants.
Their strongest units could use some points/abilities reductions, to make them useful without being overwhelming.
If you look at old Tau hatethreads, you'll notice three different popular items:
-Riptide Wings are omfgwtfbbqhax.
-Interceptor is cheap, and hard counters Deep Strike.
-Tau are allies of Convenience with Eldar.
The most notable example of these three things coming together was Nova 2016, when Nick Nanivati ran a Riptide Wing and Culexus Assassin alongside mass Eldar Jetbikes and Warp Spiders, with a single Skatach Wraithknight. Since Nova had a "only one item from FW" clause, this meant people went for the "biggest" option available.
However, Tau are a glass cannon with more cannon and less glass. They win big or lose big. They *do* have quite a few good units, but it's about tweaking now.
That's at least a relief, since it means they do not require a major rebuild. The more armies that only require tweaking the easier this process becomes.
Tamereth wrote:Formations as used need to go, they broke the game more than anything else.
That said there is one use for them, and that's to provide a different force org chart. Want to run a deathwing army of nothing but terminators, here's a "formation" that let's you use just those units. No free transports, no extra special rules.
Then tidy up the USR's and put them all in the rulebook, including all those hidden away in codex's and the game would be looking much better.
Also avoid random wherever possible. Don't make things such as destroyer weapons d3 damage. Decide on how powerful they are and give them a fixed stat. So a turbo laser on a warhound could be 2 auto wounds/penetrating hits, the larger version on a reaver 3 etc.
Did you see my proposed Detachment rules above? It'd be great to hear your thoughts regarding those.
As for USRs, you may notice that rebuilding them has been a major focus of the project so far. As has been removing randomness (see the High Caliber [X] rule).
Formations as used need to go, they broke the game more than anything else.
That said there is one use for them, and that's to provide a different force org chart. Want to run a deathwing army of nothing but terminators, here's a "formation" that let's you use just those units. No free transports, no extra special rules.
Then tidy up the USR's and put them all in the rulebook, including all those hidden away in codex's and the game would be looking much better.
Also avoid random wherever possible. Don't make things such as destroyer weapons d3 damage. Decide on how powerful they are and give them a fixed stat. So a turbo laser on a warhound could be 2 auto wounds/penetrating hits, the larger version on a reaver 3 etc.
No, they didn't. Miscosted units were far, far worse. Formations of miscosted units were even worse than that, but the original sin was miscosting the unit to begin with. For example assault from deep strike was great for CSM, because they could use raptors, but BA had to use terminators and sanguinary guard, which were both horribly overcosted, and therefore, useless. At the end of 7th, there was still nothing the BA could vs scatterbikes that worked. Scatterbikes were too efficient because I had zero undercosted units to fight back with.
Alright, so what are your ideas? I think this thread would benefit from less complaints (and this is not just you) and more ideas! If those units are overcosted, what do you propose instead?
I already want to give Terminators 2 Wounds each, and a 1+ Armor Save (still failing on a 1, but requiring AP 1 to negate). That solves their durability, and giving them Assault 4 Storm Bolters and always at least 2 Attacks might help with their attack potential. Costed at about 40 points each, since many "big infantry" seem too expensive to me as is.
I wouldn't be opposed to giving Sanguinary Guard 3 Attacks base, and maybe 2 Wounds base as well. Costed at 35-40 points each.
Colonel Bork wrote: Well, that just means that the cost of wargear must be addressed. However, a balancing act must be maintained; if these special weapons become too cheap then there is no reason to ever not take them. My thought would be to return non-incremental point costs: by the end of 7th, upgrades seemed to always cost increments of 5 points. Living ruleset will help too, since these point costs could be shuffled every so often as needed. Here are my immediate thoughts:
"Space Marine" Type Model Power Weapon...10 points Character/15 points Independent Character
Power Fist...15 points Character/20 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...5 points each
Combi-Weapon...10 points each
"Imperial Guard" Type Model Power Weapon...5 points Character/8 points Independent Character
Power Fist...8 points Character/12 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...3 points each
Once more, I don't know enough about Eldar/Tau to fairly judge how their upgrades might cost. As such, I'll fall back on the assistance of people who know better than I.
Among other things, the 2nd wound would be insurance against Perils, Plasma Pistols overheating, Dangerous Terrain, etc. Basically an anti-frustration feature. It would make any "heal" powers slightly more relevant too. PS: Points do add up over time too. 10 pts for a Power Weapon may be cheaper, but copy-pasted over your army, that adds up fast! It is weird that 2 Power Weapons are only 5 points cheaper than a Rhino after all.
Colonel Bork wrote: My take is that CSM, even base CSM, should be more elite than those of other armies. Those Chaos-worshiping Legions have been alive for 10,000 years in one of the most dangerous places in existence (the Warp). Even their most basic dudes are super elite compared to anyone else, since they have been living and fighting for far longer. Of course, this would only be in relation to the original Chaos Legions and other similarly aged traitors, with perhaps different rules for later renegades.
Furthermore, this would only elicit a remake of the CSM Codex, rather than many other Codices. I think many will agree that even after Traitor Legions, some additional assistance and reorganization would greatly benefit that faction - much like Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, etc.
Dunno, if anything I think such "veteran" things should be purchasable rather than mandatory, so that "renegades" or "stuck in timetravel" Marines are still a thing. Otherwise the old adage "you cajn win with Chaos Space Marines if you don't take any Chaos Space Marines" would hold true.
Colonel Bork wrote: It definitely seemed neat, but might clash with the Junka in style if nothing else. Regarding Chariots, that's another "type" that I would very much like to find an excuse to get rid of: they can be represented as Transports with X many Impact Hits instead of their own Special Rules. Furthermore, I am not a fan of how hits against those vehicles may be allocated against the rider or the transport. It seems hard to believe that whatever strikes those vehicles could hit the rider rather than his mount.
Maybe another USR for these types of Transports, that allow the passengers to fight in close combat? I could see Dark Eldar and maybe Orks getting that on some of their things too.
Note that melee and/or Precision Shots still let you target the passenger. It was partially an attempt to replace the Junka, as that transport came out prior to 6e adding Chariots. Due to the way the rules were written, a 7e Big Mek can buy a KFF and Bike, then buy an empty Junka to serve as an impromptu transport. (Incidentally, a rule should be added that a unit must be *able* to start deployed in its Dedicated aransport, to avoid shenanigans like a Bike Command Squad also getting a Razorback!) Since 7e gave Chariot passengers Relentless, I figured this would be a good early attempt.
One option could be to add "fighting platforms" to vehicles, so X number of passengers can engage in melees? Making open-topped vehicles less obvious deathtraps would help Orks and DE the most, but I'll need to test out some stuff.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 20:58:07
Detachment's I'm not a fan of, as they are still open to abuse. Look at the issues with 8th were pretty much any army is legal due to the what, 9 different detachments available.
Most army's should be CAD. A few specialist's should have an amended version, but it should have downsides for any upside.
With the USR's, examples such as bulky (x) to replace multiple slightly different rules would work well. But to a certain extent less is more here. Get rid of multiple USR's that are very similar but don't go adding new ones. Tidy the game up, don't go changing it for changes sake.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
Well, that just means that the cost of wargear must be addressed. However, a balancing act must be maintained; if these special weapons become too cheap then there is no reason to ever not take them. My thought would be to return non-incremental point costs: by the end of 7th, upgrades seemed to always cost increments of 5 points. Living ruleset will help too, since these point costs could be shuffled every so often as needed. Here are my immediate thoughts:
"Space Marine" Type Model Power Weapon...10 points Character/15 points Independent Character
Power Fist...15 points Character/20 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...5 points each
Combi-Weapon...10 points each
"Imperial Guard" Type Model Power Weapon...5 points Character/8 points Independent Character
Power Fist...8 points Character/12 points Independent Character
Melta Bomb...3 points each
Once more, I don't know enough about Eldar/Tau to fairly judge how their upgrades might cost. As such, I'll fall back on the assistance of people who know better than I.
Among other things, the 2nd wound would be insurance against Perils, Plasma Pistols overheating, Dangerous Terrain, etc. Basically an anti-frustration feature. It would make any "heal" powers slightly more relevant too. PS: Points do add up over time too. 10 pts for a Power Weapon may be cheaper, but copy-pasted over your army, that adds up fast! It is weird that 2 Power Weapons are only 5 points cheaper than a Rhino after all.
While I understand where you are coming from, that doesn't seem to be the norm with regards to most generic squad character options. For plasma pistols especially (among your examples) since that was a target of reduced points already. This topic will have to be readdressed once the basic rules are ironed out.
My take is that CSM, even base CSM, should be more elite than those of other armies. Those Chaos-worshiping Legions have been alive for 10,000 years in one of the most dangerous places in existence (the Warp). Even their most basic dudes are super elite compared to anyone else, since they have been living and fighting for far longer. Of course, this would only be in relation to the original Chaos Legions and other similarly aged traitors, with perhaps different rules for later renegades.
Furthermore, this would only elicit a remake of the CSM Codex, rather than many other Codices. I think many will agree that even after Traitor Legions, some additional assistance and reorganization would greatly benefit that faction - much like Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, etc.
Dunno, if anything I think such "veteran" things should be purchasable rather than mandatory, so that "renegades" or "stuck in timetravel" Marines are still a thing. Otherwise the old adage "you cajn win with Chaos Space Marines if you don't take any Chaos Space Marines" would hold true.
My thought would be to add seperate "mini-Codices" for later Renegades rather than including them under the fold of the original Chaos Space Marines. That way, the Legions and their derivatives are represented, while still allowing for separate and later forces.
It definitely seemed neat, but might clash with the Junka in style if nothing else. Regarding Chariots, that's another "type" that I would very much like to find an excuse to get rid of: they can be represented as Transports with X many Impact Hits instead of their own Special Rules. Furthermore, I am not a fan of how hits against those vehicles may be allocated against the rider or the transport. It seems hard to believe that whatever strikes those vehicles could hit the rider rather than his mount.
Maybe another USR for these types of Transports, that allow the passengers to fight in close combat? I could see Dark Eldar and maybe Orks getting that on some of their things too.
Note that melee and/or Precision Shots still let you target the passenger. It was partially an attempt to replace the Junka, as that transport came out prior to 6e adding Chariots. Due to the way the rules were written, a 7e Big Mek can buy a KFF and Bike, then buy an empty Junka to serve as an impromptu transport. (Incidentally, a rule should be added that a unit must be *able* to start deployed in its Dedicated aransport, to avoid shenanigans like a Bike Command Squad also getting a Razorback!) Since 7e gave Chariot passengers Relentless, I figured this would be a good early attempt.
One option could be to add "fighting platforms" to vehicles, so X number of passengers can engage in melees? Making open-topped vehicles less obvious deathtraps would help Orks and DE the most, but I'll need to test out some stuff.
Much like High Flying is a sub-rule under the AirborneUSR, Transports might have "Fighting Platform" and "Exposed Pilot" - the former allowing embarked passengers to fight enemies in some capacity, while the later allows Precise Shots/Strikes to hit the pilot? This will require more attention, but only after I finish my current vehicle section.
Tamereth wrote:Detachment's I'm not a fan of, as they are still open to abuse. Look at the issues with 8th were pretty much any army is legal due to the what, 9 different detachments available.
Most army's should be CAD. A few specialist's should have an amended version, but it should have downsides for any upside.
With the USR's, examples such as bulky (x) to replace multiple slightly different rules would work well. But to a certain extent less is more here. Get rid of multiple USR's that are very similar but don't go adding new ones. Tidy the game up, don't go changing it for changes sake.
I've got to ask if you read what I posted above, becuase it at least seems like you haven't. Do those preliminary Detachments that I offered above still seem abusable? I thought they were far too restrictive even, and heavily favored the CAD. The Secondary Detachments seemed to me largely useless much of the time, merely being options for specialized cohorts attached to a larger army. If these seem open to abuse, please be specific here about what the issue is/may be.
As for the USRs, I have already included Bulky [X], and removed several USRs from the original 7E list. Do you see some oversight in what I have already placed in this Thread that requires amending, or are your complaints directed at the original 7th? As it stands, this is not helpful feedback.
EDIT: Several grammar corrections.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/12 00:41:57
