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2017/07/05 21:58:20
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
The Wolves shoot better. Thanks to their 3++ Invuln's, my Axe-&-Shield CC-dreads should be better than the Knights in the Fight phase as well (unless my opponent can take out my CC-dreads with shooting first). Honestly, I don't see the Knights winning this battle unless they go first. Depending on how much damage his alpha-strike can do, it may make the game interesting. Otherwise, if my Wolves go first, then it's going to be an uphill battle for the Knights.
Questor Imperialis:
Despite the low model count of my opponent's army, it appears his list is quite geared towards fighting more elitist armies or vehicle-spam armies, of which my army is both. He's got a lot of high-damage output offense that I should be concerned about. If he can get the alpha-strike - meaning if he gets to go first - he can do meaningful damage to my army. I doubt he'll cripple me with his alpha-strike, but he can make the playing field more level with it.
Regarding the objectives, I doubt either of us are going to make an attempt at the objectives. It may just be one of those wipe-or-get-wiped type of games.
The Knights deploy first and finishes deploying first.
However, even with +1 to their roll to go first in the ITC, Knights still lose the initiative to my Space Wolves.
Well, that's a shame.
The Walking Dread 1
Spoiler:
My Movement phase is really quick because I don't move. Why let my opponent charge my advancing dreads when I've got firepower superiority?
Rune Priest attempts to cast Storm Caller but fails. I decide not to use a Command Point (CP) to re-roll it.
I decide to focus on the Predators to weaken my opponent's firepower and for First Blood. It took a little more firepower than I expected (all of my auto-cannon "Rifleman" dreads).
Shadowsword then takes 12W off of the Knight Errant. My opponent uses 1CP to re-roll one of his Imperial Knight saves.
Imperial Knights 1
Spoiler:
Knights move forwards. He does not advance them so that he can fire with them.
Between the single remaining Predator and the Knights, my opponent manages to take off 12W from my Shadowsword but is not able to finish off one of my Rifleman Dreads (6W of damage, 2W remaining). I use 1CP to re-roll one of my saves.
No charges.
The Walking Dread 2
Spoiler:
Now my CC-dreads move, along with the Wolf Priest.
Smite from my Rune Priest takes off another 3W from the Knight Errant.
Shadowsword along with most of my Rifleman Dreads focus down the Knight Warden. 1 Dread shoots at the Knight Paladin but does not manage to hurt it.
I then charge with my CC-dreads. It is about a 7-8" charge (meaning I only had to make a 6-7" charge) and 3 out of 4 of my Dreads make the charge.
Knight Errant splits its attack and do 3W of damage to each of my CC-dreads. In return, my CC-dreads finish him off.
Note: I just realized that his Knight could not have attacked my dreads due to my dreads having the initiative on the charge. Thus, my dreads must have taken damage from Knight shooting in the previous turn instead.
Knight Paladin does 3W of damage as well. In return, my CC-dread does 13W of damage to the Paladin!!!
3++ Invuln vs no Invuln makes all the difference in the world. This is turning into a slaughter!
Imperial Knights 2
Spoiler:
Paladin backs up. Techmarine heals 2W on the Knight.
Predator shoots and takes off 2W from my CC-dread with its auto-cannon. (It was actually 3W, but my Dread ignored one of the wounds due to his Venerable-ness.)
Paladin shoots at my other CC-dread and does another 3W. However, my Venerable Dread ignores 1 of the Wounds as well. Paladin then charges.
In the Fight phase, my CC-dread actually blocks all of the Knight's hits with successful 3++ saves. The Dread then finishes off the Knight. (I love the fact that I hit on 2's due to being Venerable!) But due to a fluke, his exploding Knight also takes out my Dread with 3 mortal wounds.
With just 1 Predator remaining and the Techmarine against essentially my entire army, my opponent decides to concede at this point. Space Wolves take it 19-0.
Crushing Victory for the Walking Dread - Space Wolves!!!
I am not surprised by the results at all. As good as Knights are, their main strength, which is high damage in close-combat, is neutered by CC-units with Invuln saves (and not just any Invuln saves, but 3++ Invuln saves!) Their shooting is respectable (though not great). However, it still isn't enough to deal with high-Toughness, multi-wound models. I also did them no favors by taking out 2 of their high-damage-output tanks right off the bat. The only chance my opponent had was that he needed to win the initiative to go 1st. Had he gotten the alpha-strike instead, he might have been able to make this game more competitive (still would have been an underdog in my opinion). But with my Wolves going first, combined with the fact that my CC-dreads were making their saves, this game turned out to be pretty lopsided. Honestly, even had my opponent ran 4 Knights, I don't think the results would have been much different. (By the ways, I recommended the Predator detachment to him for 2 reasons: better firepower support and to make his army a little better in the objectives game.) My Take-All-Comer's (TAC) Dreadnought army is just a natural counter to an Imperial Knights army, and this game verifies it for me.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/07/06 15:26:33
The predators are scary, for sure. I actually think they are pretty good in this edition, which is why I recommended to my opponent to run them.
This will be the first time for the both of us using Imperial Knights. The first time for my opponent running them and the first time for me playing against them. I hear they are strong, so definitely excited to play against them. Yeah, we can definitely optimize the Knights some more, but this practice battle is more of a test game to give both of us a feel for the army.
jy2 wrote: The predators are scary, for sure. I actually think they are pretty good in this edition, which is why I recommended to my opponent to run them.
This will be the first time for the both of us using Imperial Knights. The first time for my opponent running them and the first time for me playing against them. I hear they are strong, so definitely excited to play against them. Yeah, we can definitely optimize the Knights some more, but this practice battle is more of a test game to give both of us a feel for the army.
Friend of mine runs 4 knights, 3 Paladins, 1 Crusader (with Battlecannon). He's tabled everyone he's fought. Granted, our local meta doesn't tend to make "extreme" lists like you do, and I think your list would give him fits. Especially with ITC and the first turn roll off.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/07/05 22:31:46
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
I think the dreads have got this. That said, however legal it may be, I think bringing a shadowsword even against knights is a bit to cheesy for me. Unless your opponent is bringing equal cheese it seems pretty imbalanced.
buddha wrote: I think the dreads have got this. That said, however legal it may be, I think bringing a shadowsword even against knights is a bit to cheesy for me. Unless your opponent is bringing equal cheese it seems pretty imbalanced.
It won't be very effective against a foot heavy army. Or Necrons. I'd love to see this list run against a mechanized Necrons list.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/07/05 23:15:27
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
jy2 wrote: The predators are scary, for sure. I actually think they are pretty good in this edition, which is why I recommended to my opponent to run them.
This will be the first time for the both of us using Imperial Knights. The first time for my opponent running them and the first time for me playing against them. I hear they are strong, so definitely excited to play against them. Yeah, we can definitely optimize the Knights some more, but this practice battle is more of a test game to give both of us a feel for the army.
Friend of mine runs 4 knights, 3 Paladins, 1 Crusader (with Battlecannon). He's tabled everyone he's fought. Granted, our local meta doesn't tend to make "extreme" lists like you do, and I think your list would give him fits. Especially with ITC and the first turn roll off.
Good to hear.
I think every army has its good and bad matchups. Knights are an extreme list themselves, especially if the opponent isn't prepared to deal with them. I think "generalist" lists will have problems with a Knights army, but certain "specialist" armies will be better equipped to handle them. All in all, it's still somewhat of a rock-papers-scissors type of matchup, though nowhere to the degree of 7th edition competitive armies.
buddha wrote: I think the dreads have got this. That said, however legal it may be, I think bringing a shadowsword even against knights is a bit to cheesy for me. Unless your opponent is bringing equal cheese it seems pretty imbalanced.
One thing about my battles is that I do tend to push the envelope when it comes to lists because I do tend to focus more on the more competitive (even cheesy to many) side of gaming. But with that said, yeah, I wouldn't run a Shadowsword against normal lists. I only bring it out in more competitive games or for tournament practice.
buddha wrote: I think the dreads have got this. That said, however legal it may be, I think bringing a shadowsword even against knights is a bit to cheesy for me. Unless your opponent is bringing equal cheese it seems pretty imbalanced.
It won't be very effective against a foot heavy army. Or Necrons. I'd love to see this list run against a mechanized Necrons list.
Yeah, horde armies will probably be an effective counter to these types of armies.
I run Necrons as well, though I probably won't get to them until much later. For now, I am going to focus on Space Wolves, Chaos Daemons and Tyranids to start off 8th.
stratigo wrote: I've beaten a three knight list with a guilliman list, so it is very possible.
It's the other extreme from the horde of boyz or gaunts and stealers lists.
Agreed. The new competitive meta appears to be horde. One of these days, I will put my dread list through the grinder against a horde army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 23:50:23
I foresee a tough game for the Knights. Their shooting is not very efficient, especially since Predators pay too much for their chassis, but they will at least have the advantage on going first.
Unfortunately, even if they take down the Shadowsword (almost necessary to stand a chance IMO) the autocannon Dreadnoughts will whittle them down very rapidly - they should kill a Predator in one turn if allowed to focus their fire!
Further, the Venerable Dreadnoughts present a big problem with their 3++, and the Shadowsword can do massive damage to Knights and Predators alike. I foresee an uphill battle.
Note that the second Knight detachment with the Predators and Techmarine should I think be a Spearhead (heavy support) rather than a Super-Heavy detachment.
2017/07/06 08:21:33
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
Ooh, I'm looking forwards to this report. I think it's going to be a Space Wolf win but I think if lady luck decides to get involved it could easily go to the Knights. I see the knights being able to deliver a very bloody first strike but the Wolves will do what they do best and get back up and go for the throat.
Target priority will be king here as a board with lots of terrain and a good deployment will assist the wolves a lot in getting the Venerable Dreads into combat.
So yes - Space Wolf win but will be very very bloody
Yeah... that was incredibly one sided. Knights weapons just weren't cut out for this fight. He needed to spam battle cannons, only way to come close to getting that job done, and he needed to focus all fire on that shadow sword until it was dead. Advancing to engage you in CC was a bad idea.
Also, question. auto-cannons do 2 damage per wound, but you said he caused 3 damage in one of your dreads, that got lowered to 2. How'd that work?
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/07/06 15:34:19
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
Silent_Tempest wrote: I'm guessing whoever went first wins. Also why not just run 4 knights?
The other knights we had were the Forgeworld Cerastus Knights, which we didn't have the rules for at the time (I do now). Of course we could have proxied, but I was curious about the performance of Predators and so we decided to experiment with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
djones520 wrote: Yeah... that was incredibly one sided. Knights weapons just weren't cut out for this fight. He needed to spam battle cannons, only way to come close to getting that job done, and he needed to focus all fire on that shadow sword until it was dead. Advancing to engage you in CC was a bad idea.
Also, question. auto-cannons do 2 damage per wound, but you said he caused 3 damage in one of your dreads, that got lowered to 2. How'd that work?
Predator auto-cannons do 3 damage. Venerable gives my CC-dreads a 6+ to ignore a wound (for WS 2+, BS 2+ and 6+ FNP, I think Venerable is a good upgrade for only 20-pts more than a normal dread).
I was thinking about putting missile launchers on top of the Knights and giving the Predators just Heavy Bolters instead of Lascannons. I think that would have made them better. However, that would have required more proxying but we decided to go WYSIWYG as much as possible instead (since all the predators had lascannon sponsons and none of the Knights had Carapace weapons).
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/06 15:58:01
lascannons on the predators was the right call. needed that d6 damage out put.
Lot of things I would have done differently on your opponents side. Putting those predators behind BLOS for one. First turn wasn't gauranteed, so leaving them in the open like that was a risky move that bit him in the arse. I'd rather take the 4+ to shoot turn one, with living predators, then just losing them before firing.
Your target priority was spot on though. Good work.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/07/06 15:44:38
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
Gaz Taylor wrote: Ooh, I'm looking forwards to this report. I think it's going to be a Space Wolf win but I think if lady luck decides to get involved it could easily go to the Knights. I see the knights being able to deliver a very bloody first strike but the Wolves will do what they do best and get back up and go for the throat.
Target priority will be king here as a board with lots of terrain and a good deployment will assist the wolves a lot in getting the Venerable Dreads into combat.
So yes - Space Wolf win but will be very very bloody
My wolves always go for the jugular. It's just that sometimes, that means sitting and shooting before assaulting. Lady luck was on my side this game as I was rolling well with my dread Invuln saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
djones520 wrote: lascannons on the predators was the right call. needed that d6 damage out put.
Lot of things I would have done differently on your opponents side. Putting those predators behind BLOS for one. First turn wasn't gauranteed, so leaving them in the open like that was a risky move that bit him in the arse. I'd rather take the 4+ to shoot turn one, with living predators, then just losing them before firing.
Your target priority was spot on though. Good work.
To be fair, it was his first game of 8E. With practice, he will work out the kinks, both with list-building as well as in-game tactics.
Personally, I think that he had to play aggressive and to go for broke. Yeah, you stick your neck out and it may get chopped off. But it will also increase your chance of making it to the other side. Hide it behind cover and it might stay on your body a little longer, but also, your chance of successfully crossing goes way down. It's a case of high risk, high rewards but sometimes if you want to win, you've got to take the risk. Or so that is my philosophy.
Btw, I was referring to the Stormspear Rocket Pods. 6 lascannons = 6 S9 AP -3 D6dmg shots. 2 Stormspears = 6 S8 AP -2 D6dmg shots. Difference is, Stormspears are on a much more resilient platform (Imperial Knight) and in addition, now you've got 18 S5 heavy bolter shots from the Predators that you can use for horde control.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/06 15:57:38
Ratius wrote: I feel the board needed a bit more terrain.
Interesting Dread list though.
I echo both of these statements. The board looked very spartan for Terrain and I think having more Terrain, especially LOS blocking would have made it less one sided.
The Dread list looks very very cool, but I can't help feeling it could do with something to help out with an Alpha/Distraction Strike.
While having more terrain might have extended the game a little longer, I don't think it would have made it less one-sided. It would have probably just prolonged the inevitable, especially since I won the roll, I could have chosen to go first or second.
How it deals with alpha-strike army is through redundancy. Take out one or 2 units (with the exception of the Shadowsword) and my list can still operate effectively. You can't really avoid alpha-strikes in this edition due to the Reserves rules. The best you can really do is just to bring an army that is resilient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/06 22:46:03
While having more terrain might have extended the game a little longer, I don't think it would have made it less one-sided. It would have probably just prolonged the inevitable, especially since I won the roll, I could have chosen to go first or second.
I can't argue with that but I do think it would have been a different game but it does depend on how much you use. Plenty of LOS blocking would have made it a lot more different and maybe have given the option for going for the scenario!
How it deals with alpha-strike army is through redundancy. Take out one or 2 units (with the exception of the Shadowsword) and my list can still operate effectively. You can't really avoid alpha-strikes in this edition due to the Reserves rules. The best you can really do is just to bring an army that is resilient.
I think because I'm an aggressive player, I tend to think about stuff like this and it floats my boat. I totally agree about redundancy but I think having something to act as a distraction would make your list work better IMO.
While having more terrain might have extended the game a little longer, I don't think it would have made it less one-sided. It would have probably just prolonged the inevitable, especially since I won the roll, I could have chosen to go first or second.
I can't argue with that but I do think it would have been a different game but it does depend on how much you use. Plenty of LOS blocking would have made it a lot more different and maybe have given the option for going for the scenario!
How it deals with alpha-strike army is through redundancy. Take out one or 2 units (with the exception of the Shadowsword) and my list can still operate effectively. You can't really avoid alpha-strikes in this edition due to the Reserves rules. The best you can really do is just to bring an army that is resilient.
I think because I'm an aggressive player, I tend to think about stuff like this and it floats my boat. I totally agree about redundancy but I think having something to act as a distraction would make your list work better IMO.
I guess you can say that, in my list, the CC-dreads are the "distraction" units, only they are not the type that will get up in your face right away. Against other armies, I normally advance them very aggressively and force my opponent to have to deal with them (as was the case in my previous - my 1st - battle pretty against AdMech). Otherwise, I am focusing on my firepower. The thing about distraction units (like drop podding melta units) is that they are a one-and-done type of unit. Drop them in, pray you do enough damage and then write them off. In this list, I tend to focus more on sustained offense. Other than my CC-dreads, who are putting enormous pressure on my opponent's forces, the rest of my army provide steady and reliable offense over the course of the game. Now there will be lists where I will use these one-&-done alpha-strike distraction units, but this list isn't one of them.
Books wrote: Always good to see fellow Space Wolves getting wins in as well. Cheers Wolf Brethren! For the All-Father and Russ!
Thanks!
Ratius wrote: Have you thought about taking Bjorn for the reroll 1s ability?
I may experiment with him in the future. I'm also looking at Logan, who allows you to re-roll all hits. But Bjorn does fit my theme better.
Freezerassasin wrote: How did the techmarine heal the Knight? It can only target <Chapter> vehicles which the Knights don't have.
Oops! Mistake.
Thanks for pointing it out. I'll let me friend know, though I doubt he will be running this detachment again.
I am thinking about doing a similar List though I was thinking about running 4 Mortis Pattern Dreads with twin heavy bolters instead of the Rifle dreads and bumping the Shadow sword to a Falchion superheavy tank destroyer. For HQs I was thinking a Primaris Captain and Librarian.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
2017/07/11 07:49:12
Subject: 2K 8th ITC Battle - The Walking Dread Space Wolves vs Imperial Knights
Khadorstompy wrote: I am thinking about doing a similar List though I was thinking about running 4 Mortis Pattern Dreads with twin heavy bolters instead of the Rifle dreads and bumping the Shadow sword to a Falchion superheavy tank destroyer. For HQs I was thinking a Primaris Captain and Librarian.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
I would recommend a mix between Rifleman dreads and Mortis HB Dreads (probably a 3 Rifleman to 1 HB Dread ratio). IMO, the Rifleman dread is the better TAC dread. Mortis Dreads are good against infantry but not so much as more elite units, vehicles or other multi-wound units.
The Falchion is good but keep in mind that the ITC just had a vote recently with regards to Super-heavies. If you plan to play in ITC tournaments, the Falchion would be illegal to bring (nothing over PL31).
Also, you might want to consider a screening unit or counter-assault unit for certain armies that can charge on Turn 1. For me, I have the CC-dreads to protect my shooty dreads from those types of armies.
Khadorstompy wrote: I am thinking about doing a similar List though I was thinking about running 4 Mortis Pattern Dreads with twin heavy bolters instead of the Rifle dreads and bumping the Shadow sword to a Falchion superheavy tank destroyer. For HQs I was thinking a Primaris Captain and Librarian.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
I would recommend a mix between Rifleman dreads and Mortis HB Dreads (probably a 3 Rifleman to 1 HB Dread ratio). IMO, the Rifleman dread is the better TAC dread. Mortis Dreads are good against infantry but not so much as more elite units, vehicles or other multi-wound units.
The Falchion is good but keep in mind that the ITC just had a vote recently with regards to Super-heavies. If you plan to play in ITC tournaments, the Falchion would be illegal to bring (nothing over PL31).
Also, you might want to consider a screening unit or counter-assault unit for certain armies that can charge on Turn 1. For me, I have the CC-dreads to protect my shooty dreads from those types of armies.
Yeah the list still runs the 4 CC Dreads in addition to everything else. Haven't heard about the ITC superheavy ruling but I know it wont fly in my area. Hmm. Rifle dreads are 27 points more then Mortis HBs. If I where to keep Autocannon dreads would only be able to run 3. Mitgated somewhat by the addition of 4 more lascannons on the Falchion over the Shadowsword for big stuff but the Falchion has only 1 Twin HB to the Shadowsword's 5. Nice thing about dread is it really easy to swap their weapons so I can test it multiple ways.
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