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Soo... Does Ynnead have teenage angst? Is it just a goth who was put into the wrong universe?

Why can't it be taken alongside Khaine's Avatar?

Is it daddy issues?

Also, does it make any fluff-sense for a Craftworld with an overactive Avatar to become politically divided, where some of the Eldar take it as a sign from Khaine that they must war, and others take it as a sign that the end times have come and just give themselves to Ynnead? And would they then ever work together?

Long story short, what is the relationship (or lack thereof) between Khaine and Ynnead?

The Avatar of Khaine can't be taken in a Ynnari army is because Ynnari are Eldar that worship Ynnead while the Avatar is a slice of shattered Khaine, essentially, a Daemon. A aligned Daemon can't worship another God, it simply can't, because it is a slither of the patron gods identity. The Avatar can't worship Ynnead, ergo can't be a Ynnari, ergo can't be in their detachment.

As for the relationship between Ynnead and Khaine? Well...Khaine is dead. So I doubt he has much of an opinion either way. It's important to remember that the Avatars of Khaine aren't Khaine. Khaine was a douche who wanted to murder the Eldar and torture Isha. The Avatars of Khaine are shaped by the collective worship of Khaine in his aspects, shaped by the vengeful Eldar worshipping a God that they needed to have rather than the God they had. I very much doubt an Avatar of Khaine bears much resemblance at all to the Original.

Ynnead and Cegorarch is the more interesting pairing. It's clear he planned for Ynnead to be born, but as an equal or a pawn is more interesting.

Alex...I like how you think.

Personally, I really hope the writers think like you too. These are lovecraftian entities here. If any mortal claims to know what their plans or motivations are, they're probably kidding themselves.

As for Cegorach, the way I see it is that only a fool would trust a Trickster God. When he could have fought alongside Khaine, he ran instead. It's quite clear that he's interested primarily in his own survival. Perhaps the Eldar are useful to him for his continued survival, but that's about it. What would you expect from a trickster god birthed by the legendarily arrogant and elitist Eldar? Of course he only cares about his own survival.

Could the birth of Ynnead be a tactic to wipe out both Slaanesh and the Eldar (who basically murdered all his fellow gods), with the Harlequins as willing pawns? Probably not unless he can ensure his own survival, but who knows what his endgame is?

You're absolutely bang on about the gods of the Eldar being basically caustic. A Trickster, a Murderer and a Reaper. Would you'd trust these beings with your soul if you had any other option? Their situation is beyond desperate. The Eldar worship them not because it's a good idea, because they have nothing else.

I just hope the writers remember that before painting the Ynnari as saviours.

Wandered slightly off-topic there. As far as I see it, the Ynnari are a cult that are for the most part rejected by the Craftworlds. Yes they might support them, and many of their citizens have joined them, but they're not Ynnari. The Ynnari are the roving bands of prophets and fanatics travelling through the webway to recruit followers and fight their enemies. Avatars are found in the heart of craftworlds, and there is only one. It would be a desperate scenario indeed that a Craftworld would pledge one of its most valuable warmachines (and sacrifice one of its citizens to wake it) to fight for a bunch of fanatical cultists.

Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Agiel wrote:
Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Hopefully, nothing like most people would imagine. Too much temptation to give it the typical balloon-boobs most female models are saddled with (although, gladly, not from GW). Plus, Isha's a Mother Goddess. Slaanesh is what an Eldar fertility god looks like

Really, I'd like to see the Eldar Gods looking really rather strange. I think people forget that the Eldar are aliens, and end up making them too human.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Agiel wrote:
Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Hopefully, nothing like most people would imagine. Too much temptation to give it the typical balloon-boobs most female models are saddled with (although, gladly, not from GW). Plus, Isha's a Mother Goddess. Slaanesh is what an Eldar fertility god looks like

Really, I'd like to see the Eldar Gods looking really rather strange. I think people forget that the Eldar are aliens, and end up making them too human.

I think Alarielle would make a decent Avatar of Isha. She is also a healer, while keeping a ruthless pose. Obviously the tree theme doesn't match, but I think she has the correct vibe.

fresus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Agiel wrote:
Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Hopefully, nothing like most people would imagine. Too much temptation to give it the typical balloon-boobs most female models are saddled with (although, gladly, not from GW). Plus, Isha's a Mother Goddess. Slaanesh is what an Eldar fertility god looks like

Really, I'd like to see the Eldar Gods looking really rather strange. I think people forget that the Eldar are aliens, and end up making them too human.

I think Alarielle would make a decent Avatar of Isha. She is also a healer, while keeping a ruthless pose. Obviously the tree theme doesn't match, but I think she has the correct vibe.

Absolutely bang on

She is also a harvest and (my mistake earlier) a fertility god, so perhaps the wings would fit better than initially thought. I'd perhaps want to change the arm slightly, although it would fit perfectly with my exodites...

Kind of makes me want to have a crack at some of the other Eldar Gods. Perhaps a bit of pre-Fall modelling would be in order...

An avatar of Isha should also have a strong "Tear" theme.

If based on Alarielle's model, there could be water droplets forming at the tip of her wings (to represent tears). And when the tears hit the ground, they make small plants sprout, to match the fertility and tree theme that Alarielle has going. This could be re-enforced by good panting, using a dark base and strong light on the sprouting plants.

A smaller-scale Avatar could be made from Yvraine, with the end of her gown (where it flows on the ground) turning into water droplets, leaving a trail of soulstones behind her (I think in the lore, Isha's tear formed the soulstones), which also matches Yvraine's theme pretty well. With the upper body of a praying sister/nun (jointed palms, closed eyes, head slightly leaning forward), she could have a "I cry for my children" vibe.

Brilliant ideas I particularly love the idea of her tears falling to the ground and causing flowers to grow, especially if those flowers are crystalline in some way.

I like the idea of doing a small-scale Avatar. Not so much as a physical embodiment of the god considering she's trapped, but as an Eldar playing her part.

One of the themes I wanted to explore a little with my exodites is them being descended from religious fanatics, so they would keep the old religions alive (albeit in a way twisted by 10,000 years of societal regression).

What I'm thinking of now is to have the ruling elite of my exodites model themselves after the dead Eldar pantheon, perhaps partially empowered by the belief of their followers (to justify using Phoenix Lord rules for them). Perhaps not and just have them as regular Autarchs/Archons/Farseers/Succubi. Sort of like Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil from Morrowind.

I've already got Kurnous pretty much sorted from one of my earlier modelling efforts



I've also had an idea for a Succubus that would fit nicely for Khaine. Basically, I was thinking that when Khaine shattered the shards that would form Avatars landed in the craftworlds which were still in quite close proximity. Only smaller fragments reached the far-flung exodite worlds. These smaller fragments formed suits of armour imbued with the wrath of Khaine. This armour will imbue an Eldar with a fragment of Khaine's power and martial skill, but his wrath will steadily burn out their soul. Basically a counts-as Succubus made with a combination of Dark Eldar, Spite Revenant and Sisters of Slaughter bits

I've also been trying to find something to do with Yvraine for a while so that works nicely for Isha now, what could the others look like? Vaul, Cegorach, Asuryan, Morai-Heg, Lileath...

Sorry for going so far off topic, but this is such a cool idea! OP do you mind?

Agiel wrote:
Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Something suitably Nurglified I should hope.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Agiel wrote:
Kind of got me wondering what... say... an Avatar of Isha would look like.

Something suitably Nurglified I should hope.

Ooh now that's got potential for some really creepy stuff. Bilateral split between Eldar Fertility God and warped herald of plagues...

Nonono, what you want is a top/bottom split. Like the mermaid, but the merPLAGUE!

...

...

Top half is a GUO's face, bottom half is nice ladylike legs o.O

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Alex...I like how you think.

Personally, I really hope the writers think like you too. These are lovecraftian entities here. If any mortal claims to know what their plans or motivations are, they're probably kidding themselves.

As for Cegorach, the way I see it is that only a fool would trust a Trickster God. When he could have fought alongside Khaine, he ran instead. It's quite clear that he's interested primarily in his own survival. Perhaps the Eldar are useful to him for his continued survival, but that's about it. What would you expect from a trickster god birthed by the legendarily arrogant and elitist Eldar? Of course he only cares about his own survival.

Could the birth of Ynnead be a tactic to wipe out both Slaanesh and the Eldar (who basically murdered all his fellow gods), with the Harlequins as willing pawns? Probably not unless he can ensure his own survival, but who knows what his endgame is?

You're absolutely bang on about the gods of the Eldar being basically caustic. A Trickster, a Murderer and a Reaper. Would you'd trust these beings with your soul if you had any other option? Their situation is beyond desperate. The Eldar worship them not because it's a good idea, because they have nothing else.

I just hope the writers remember that before painting the Ynnari as saviours.

Wandered slightly off-topic there. As far as I see it, the Ynnari are a cult that are for the most part rejected by the Craftworlds. Yes they might support them, and many of their citizens have joined them, but they're not Ynnari. The Ynnari are the roving bands of prophets and fanatics travelling through the webway to recruit followers and fight their enemies. Avatars are found in the heart of craftworlds, and there is only one. It would be a desperate scenario indeed that a Craftworld would pledge one of its most valuable warmachines (and sacrifice one of its citizens to wake it) to fight for a bunch of fanatical cultists.

One thing I want to point out that people seem to get wrong on a regular basis, Ynnead is not a God of Death but the God of the Dead and Rebirth. This is a pretty significant difference, it is not the Reaper (which would be the Nightbringer anyway) in fact I'm not sure there is an analogy that fits him in part because we know so little about Ynnead (it's not even certain that it can called benevelent yet).

 Selym wrote:
Nonono, what you want is a top/bottom split. Like the mermaid, but the merPLAGUE!

...

...

Top half is a GUO's face, bottom half is nice ladylike legs o.O

That's one way to make a distraction carnifex. Not necessarily threatening, but just so bizarre-looking that your opponent can't concentrate

 Imateria wrote:

One thing I want to point out that people seem to get wrong on a regular basis, Ynnead is not a God of Death but the God of the Dead and Rebirth. This is a pretty significant difference, it is not the Reaper (which would be the Nightbringer anyway) in fact I'm not sure there is an analogy that fits him in part because we know so little about Ynnead (it's not even certain that it can called benevelent yet).

Agreed, that is a common misnomer. Just easier to play up the sinister aspect if you focus on the 'Death' part rather than 'Rebirth'. Probably the closest relation would actually be Nurgle, with his plague/life duality. I suspect that's intentional, to create a sort of mirror-pantheon between humanity (Chaos) and the Eldar. Something hinted at by the continual recurrence of '7' in Ynnari special rules, which happens to be Nurgle's sacred number.

Funny you mention the Nightbringer. The fluff for that is why I was slightly disappointed that Ynnead didn't look more Reaper-y. Specifically the bit about the Nightbringer causing so much carnage that its image was imprinted upon the minds of mortals as synonymous with death. From that, I'd expect the Eldar to picture 'death' as something reaper-y, and intertwine that with their manifestation of a death-and-life god.

Hmmm, a better analogy of the current Eldar Gods might be 'The Trickster, The Murderer and the Necromancer'. Still not a trio I'd be particularly pleased to trust with my soul. Unless the only other option is 'The Sadist'.

That plays into something that I've been doing with my Ynnari actually. Ynnead is a God of Rebirth. Ynnead is not a God of Healing. That's Isha. She can restore life to your limbs, but cannot heal your wounds. We see this in the Altansari who were saved from death by Ynnead, but look like exquisitely preserved corpses.



I hope this is the direction they go with the Ynnari fluff. Fits my general desire for grimdark bleakness

Considering Ynnead is supposed to be formed from Craftworld Eldar souls, I would expect their views and tendencies to influence Ynnead's personality much as how the old decadent Eldar souls made Slaanesh. Therefore I don't see Ynnead as being malevolent to the Eldar (or at least the Craftworld Eldar, considering it is composed of them). However its idea of benevolence may be skewed by the viewpoint of long dead Eldar souls that lingered a long time in limbo in the Infinity Circuits. Thus I see Ynnead as being a genuine savior of the Eldar from Slaanesh, with the twist being its idea of salvation may differ from what the living Eldar consider to be salvation.

Remember the Ynnari are trying to circumvent prophecy or destiny by jolting Ynnead into wakefulness prematurely. This premature Ynnead may lack the strength to defeat Slaanesh and so by rushing the Ynnari may be ruining everything. Alternatively, perhaps Ynnead will try to put things back on track, by engineering the deaths of the living Eldar, though in such a way that Ynnead gets them rather than Slaanesh.

In much the same way, I see Cegorach as trying to save the Eldar, but again in a way that may not be what the Eldar expect, want, or find sane.

Iracundus wrote:
Considering Ynnead is supposed to be formed from Craftworld Eldar souls, I would expect their views and tendencies to influence Ynnead's personality much as how the old decadent Eldar souls made Slaanesh. Therefore I don't see Ynnead as being malevolent to the Eldar (or at least the Craftworld Eldar, considering it is composed of them). However its idea of benevolence may be skewed by the viewpoint of long dead Eldar souls that lingered a long time in limbo in the Infinity Circuits. Thus I see Ynnead as being a genuine savior of the Eldar from Slaanesh, with the twist being its idea of salvation may differ from what the living Eldar consider to be salvation.

Remember the Ynnari are trying to circumvent prophecy or destiny by jolting Ynnead into wakefulness prematurely. This premature Ynnead may lack the strength to defeat Slaanesh and so by rushing the Ynnari may be ruining everything. Alternatively, perhaps Ynnead will try to put things back on track, by engineering the deaths of the living Eldar, though in such a way that Ynnead gets them rather than Slaanesh.

In much the same way, I see Cegorach as trying to save the Eldar, but again in a way that may not be what the Eldar expect, want, or find sane.

Love the view that Ynnead genuinely wants to save the Eldar...but the manner of saving might not be how you'd expect.

I'd still say that primarily Cegorach is interested in saving his own hide. It's a trope of many trickster gods, and fits nicely with him. If it just so happens that the Eldar are necessary for him to survive, then good for them, but I wouldn't count on his motivations being benevolent.

In the Iyanden supplement, Iyanna was portrayed as viewing the next stage of the Eldar as existing all as the incorporeal dead, and using wraith constructs as needed. Granted that could have just been her own personal belief rather than Ynnead's goal, and Iyanna has been playing second fiddle to Yvraine so it could be Iyanna's views are now irrelevant. However I could see how this could be the view of Ynnead or some of the souls composing Ynnead. Some of the dead Eldar souls have been dead for thousands of years. Their time as living Eldar would be a tiny fraction of their total existence and might only be a dim memory, so to them, being dead is almost all they have ever known. They might therefore want the living Eldar to join them on the "other side", perhaps as part of Ynnead and protected from Slaanesh.

Iracundus wrote:
In the Iyanden supplement, Iyanna was portrayed as viewing the next stage of the Eldar as existing all as the incorporeal dead, and using wraith constructs as needed. Granted that could have just been her own personal belief rather than Ynnead's goal, and Iyanna has been playing second fiddle to Yvraine so it could be Iyanna's views are now irrelevant. However I could see how this could be the view of Ynnead or some of the souls composing Ynnead. Some of the dead Eldar souls have been dead for thousands of years. Their time as living Eldar would be a tiny fraction of their total existence and might only be a dim memory, so to them, being dead is almost all they have ever known. They might therefore want the living Eldar to join them on the "other side", perhaps as part of Ynnead and protected from Slaanesh.

That absolutely makes sense. Plus, if Ynnead's perception of life and death is fluid and interchangeable, she could have no real understanding of the deliniation between the two (or, rather, why the Eldar might wish to remain in one state as opposed to the other).

It's also worth mentioning that Iyanna is a radical. Last I read I wouldn't take her motivations as the same as those of her craftworld, unless in recent fluff she's become the de-facto leader of Iyanden.

Iyanna's portrayal in the Iyanden supplement showed her to be a dangerous radical beneath a seemingly reasonable outward facade, who was plotting to also jump start Ynnead's awakening by casting her entire Craftworld's remaining living population into the Infinity Circuits (i.e. kill them all) through amassing the Tears of Morai-Heg. The others thought they were getting the Tears to fulfill the Phoenix Arisen prophecy of the Eldar being reborn. Iyanna thought so too except her idea of rebirth was as a race of the dead.

Iracundus wrote:
Iyanna's portrayal in the Iyanden supplement showed her to be a dangerous radical beneath a seemingly reasonable outward facade, who was plotting to also jump start Ynnead's awakening by casting her entire Craftworld's remaining living population into the Infinity Circuits (i.e. kill them all) through amassing the Tears of Morai-Heg. The others thought they were getting the Tears to fulfill the Phoenix Arisen prophecy of the Eldar being reborn. Iyanna thought so too except her idea of rebirth was as a race of the dead.

Aww hell yeah Iyanna sounds like an excellent character. I love it when the writers actually portray the sheer desperation and disjointedness of the Eldar.

Best character in 40k I've read about in a while. Feels real-politik-y.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Iyanna's portrayal in the Iyanden supplement showed her to be a dangerous radical beneath a seemingly reasonable outward facade, who was plotting to also jump start Ynnead's awakening by casting her entire Craftworld's remaining living population into the Infinity Circuits (i.e. kill them all) through amassing the Tears of Morai-Heg. The others thought they were getting the Tears to fulfill the Phoenix Arisen prophecy of the Eldar being reborn. Iyanna thought so too except her idea of rebirth was as a race of the dead.

Aww hell yeah Iyanna sounds like an excellent character. I love it when the writers actually portray the sheer desperation and disjointedness of the Eldar.

Best character in 40k I've read about in a while. Feels real-politik-y.

The interesting part which I felt the latest Ynnari arc has not addressed is how the fire in the Shrine of Asuryan on Iyanden re-ignited after Iyanna left. She had dismissed the possibility of any other hope for the Eldar except for Ynnead, and that the old gods were dead and gone forever. The flame might be interpreted to suggest she is mistaken. Alternatively, it might simply represent the rebirth of hope among the Eldar of Iyanden, though the way that scene was written appears at least to me to suggest Iyanna was mistaken.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Iyanna's portrayal in the Iyanden supplement showed her to be a dangerous radical beneath a seemingly reasonable outward facade, who was plotting to also jump start Ynnead's awakening by casting her entire Craftworld's remaining living population into the Infinity Circuits (i.e. kill them all) through amassing the Tears of Morai-Heg. The others thought they were getting the Tears to fulfill the Phoenix Arisen prophecy of the Eldar being reborn. Iyanna thought so too except her idea of rebirth was as a race of the dead.

Aww hell yeah Iyanna sounds like an excellent character. I love it when the writers actually portray the sheer desperation and disjointedness of the Eldar.

Best character in 40k I've read about in a while. Feels real-politik-y.

The interesting part which I felt the latest Ynnari arc has not addressed is how the fire in the Shrine of Asuryan on Iyanden re-ignited after Iyanna left. She had dismissed the possibility of any other hope for the Eldar except for Ynnead, and that the old gods were dead and gone forever. The flame might be interpreted to suggest she is mistaken. Alternatively, it might simply represent the rebirth of hope among the Eldar of Iyanden, though the way that scene was written appears at least to me to suggest Iyanna was mistaken.

I sincerely hope the rest of the Eldar pantheon stay dead. Having them come back would be far too noblebright for me, unless they're not quite what the Eldar imagined (possible, given that the Eldar's historical record appears to be oral and myth-based and they've had 10,000 years of interpretation to skew things). Personally, I'd be more comfortable with it being a manifestation of the newfound hope of the Iyandeni (although that too feels to noblebright for my tastes).

I'm pretty sure in Asurmen the Phoenix Lords meet up in a weird temple back when the Fall was recent to get instructions from Asuryan so the Eldar could get a degree of guidance via the Phoenix Lords which I think would be interesting.

You could have Craftworlders following either themselves, Asuryan/the old gods through the Phoenix Lords or Ynnead.

What I'm most interested in is how the Drukhari are going to factor into this. Yvrain was chosen because Ynnead felt she embodied the spirit of the ancient Aeldari best, which suggests he's not exactly a supporter of the Craftworlders or Exodites view on the future of the Eldar or dealing with Slaanesh. It's mixed up further by some of those Drukhari joining the Reborn Warhost not exactly being "True Believers" (Yvrain was pretty certain that the Wych Cult contingent sent by Lelith Hesperax was simply her keeping her feet in both camps to see how things turn out, as well as the possibility of extending her youthfulness).

I'd definitely like to see an interaction between the Avatar of Khaine and Yvvraine, similar to it's conversation with Jain Zar in her novel.

A relevant tidbit that I feel needs pointing out though - in a recent Q&A, Gav Thorpe notes that the Eldar are, of course, a polytheistic race by nature and so it's perfectly normal for them to follow more than one god. A worshipper of Khaine or Cegorach is entirely able to also worship Ynnead.

I sincerely hope all of this gets explored in Ghost Warrior. I have very high hopes for that novel.