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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

So... with the latest missile developments that is almost an ICBM, that can theoretically now reach Alaska and Hawaii...

Now what?

Keep in mind, that we're technically still at war... only that it's "on pause" now. So no formal agreement from UN or US Congress is needed to re-engage. (egads!!!)

https://www.cfr.org/expert-brief/taking-north-korea-g20
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN19P02W
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/04/us/politics/trump-north-korea-missile-icbm.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g20-northkorea-idUSKBN19S242
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449280/north-korea-icbm-test-crosses-red-line-nuclear-crisis

There are no good options... is... letting NK become fully nuclearized (sp?) the best option?

Seems to me, is that if we want to force China/RU to de-nuclearize NK... maybe the best card on the table for the US is to threaten support for Japan (or, more provocatively Taiwan) to build their own ICBM nukes?

Acquiescence the South China Sea to China in return for their help to de-nuclearize NK?

Re-engaging hostilities at the 38th parallel just seems too knarly.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






The Dog-house

I advocate for a parking lot.

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Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Give Kim Jong Un the hug he clearly needs.

Ghorros wrote:
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 Marmatag wrote:
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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I advocate for a parking lot.



I'm more partial to recognize China's expanded claim to the South Sea than that...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Status quo.

China doesn't want North Korea. They have a big enough issue as it is facing their welfare implosion in the next 10 years.

South Korea doesn't want to reintegrate. It will collapse their economy, bringing in millions of illiterate subsistence farmers.

None of us want that war, because the death toll would be horrendous. Millions dead in days.

Keep things as they are. It bloody sucks, but the option is the best of a bag of gakky options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 19:18:36


Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Whatever happens .

China will be involved but even they are losing patience with the the new Kim.
Plus he not visit as much as previous, abs seems to have less of a good relationship with China. One that was pretty solid under his Father and his father also visited Russia.

He cultivated at least semi friends better.

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UK


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Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

So lets get this straight, North Korea can technically nuke parts of South Korea with a reasonable degree of possibility of it happening ad people are generally ok with that.

Now they have a 0.0000001% chance of nuking Alaska and people are panicking and wondering if the US should invade.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Made in us
Fiery Bright Wizard





California

Not sure, but if everyone keeps sittiing on their hands and NK keeps it up then eventually it will be to the point of no return. IMO I can't see any of this ending with anything but mass death.

If you don't neuter them now, then 10-20-30 years down the line the crap will still hit the fan. It's just a question of when...not so much an "if".

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Orlanth wrote:
So lets get this straight, North Korea can technically nuke parts of South Korea with a reasonable degree of possibility of it happening ad people are generally ok with that.

Now they have a 0.0000001% chance of nuking Alaska and people are panicking and wondering if the US should invade.


Won't someone think of the POLAR BEARS!

Alternatively totally back off. Announce the US is leaving in five years. If Sk wants to buy some nukes, sell them. Same for Japan. Move on and get out.

Remember NK can't exist without China, and China uses them as a bargaining chip.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thargrim wrote:
Not sure, but if everyone keeps sittiing on their hands and NK keeps it up then eventually it will be to the point of no return. IMO I can't see any of this ending with anything but mass death.

If you don't neuter them now, then 10-20-30 years down the line the crap will still hit the fan. It's just a question of when...not so much an "if".


Point of No return for what? They will be able to nuke us, and we will be able to nuke them. UNless you're advocating using nukes on them now followed by fulls scale invasion in which case...you go first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 19:49:11


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Orlanth wrote:
So lets get this straight, North Korea can technically nuke parts of South Korea with a reasonable degree of possibility of it happening ad people are generally ok with that.

Not sure I'd agree with "people are generally ok with that" assessment.

Now they have a 0.0000001% chance of nuking Alaska and people are panicking and wondering if the US should invade.

For a country as belligerent as NK, I think each time their missile technologies advances... you'd have to reassess your stance.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





What if NK elects their version of Donald Trump? All it takes is one wacko in charge to turn Seoul to glass.

We are going to have to spend a trillion dollars bombing the gak out of them.

Might as well be now.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 JimOnMars wrote:
What if NK elects their version of Donald Trump? All it takes is one wacko in charge to turn Seoul to glass.

We are going to have to spend a trillion dollars bombing the gak out of them.

Might as well be now.


As noted, you go. If SK wants to declare war they can go right ahead after we leave.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I guess the big question, what is stopping NK and SK from signing a peace agreement with one another?

Is it simply nuke deterrance?




Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Nuke it from orbit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JimOnMars wrote:
What if NK elects their version of Donald Trump? All it takes is one wacko in charge to turn Seoul to glass.

We are going to have to spend a trillion dollars bombing the gak out of them.

Might as well be now.


You think North Korea has elections? Thats cute.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 20:13:11


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 JimOnMars wrote:
What if NK elects their version of Donald Trump? All it takes is one wacko in charge to turn Seoul to glass.

We are going to have to spend a trillion dollars bombing the gak out of them.

Might as well be now.


The simple fact that you think a man who does stuff like this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546506/North-Korean-leader-Kim-Jong-Un-executes-family-uncle-Jang-Song-Thaek.html

Is not worse then Donald Trump just shows how out to lunch you are.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I can imagine a number of approaches.

In an earlier thread on this topic I proposed that we should drop $10 billion dollar notes with LSD on them over the countries' cities, and wait to see what happened.

If we are looking for more conventional approaches, let's consider war. The UN is technically at war with N Korea anyway, so it wouldn't be hard to take their continued provocations and illegal acts as a casus belli. Before declaring the cease fire rescinded, special forces teams should be infiltrated to identify high value targets such as fuel reserves. Then, a five pronged attack from Russia, China, South Korea and both coasts, supported by carrier forces and air forces from Japan. Hopefully it would not be met with fanatical resistance, but if it were, a careful advance with lots of air superiority would limit allied casualties and the defenders would collapse from lack of supplies.

Another method is subversion. Find a variety of inducements and support to organise a coup from within the top level of the N Korean political class.

A third method is to continue with the current policy of diplomacy but intensify it to cut North Korea off from the world and let it wither on the vine.

All these approaches need the support primarily of the Chinese.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas



All these approaches need the support primarily of the Chinese.

I think we've found your problem right there.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 JimOnMars wrote:
What if NK elects their version of Donald Trump? All it takes is one wacko in charge to turn Seoul to glass.

We are going to have to spend a trillion dollars bombing the gak out of them.

Might as well be now.

Wait, Donald Trump nuked South America!? Oh my god! Oh... wait, no he hasn't.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I can imagine a number of approaches.

In an earlier thread on this topic I proposed that we should drop $10 billion dollar notes with LSD on them over the countries' cities, and wait to see what happened.

If we are looking for more conventional approaches, let's consider war. The UN is technically at war with N Korea anyway, so it wouldn't be hard to take their continued provocations and illegal acts as a casus belli. Before declaring the cease fire rescinded, special forces teams should be infiltrated to identify high value targets such as fuel reserves. Then, a five pronged attack from Russia, China, South Korea and both coasts, supported by carrier forces and air forces from Japan. Hopefully it would not be met with fanatical resistance, but if it were, a careful advance with lots of air superiority would limit allied casualties and the defenders would collapse from lack of supplies.

Another method is subversion. Find a variety of inducements and support to organise a coup from within the top level of the N Korean political class.

A third method is to continue with the current policy of diplomacy but intensify it to cut North Korea off from the world and let it wither on the vine.

All these approaches need the support primarily of the Chinese.


The biggest issue is the thousands of artillery pieces, hidden in armored bunkers on the DMZ, zeroed in on Seoul. The outset of hostilities, Seoul gets erased.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Frazzled wrote:


All these approaches need the support primarily of the Chinese.

I think we've found your problem right there.


The Chinese are eager to take a bigger role on the world's stage, as witness their stepping up to the plate on the Climate Change Paris Accord. I think they could be persuaded.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





By "elect their version of Trump" was a metaphor for the next guy to come to power who was categorically worse than all others who came before him.

Metaphor, guys, metaphor.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 JimOnMars wrote:
By "elect their version of Trump" was a metaphor for the next guy to come to power who was categorically worse than all others who came before him.

Metaphor, guys, metaphor.


Bad metaphors.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

One way to solve Norh Korea is o offer blanket 'Idi Amin' deals, they would have to be offered to all important officials.

The deal Idi Amin was offered and took was that if he relinquished power then he, his family and his lieutenants would be given blanket and total immunity from prosecution and can live out their lives in a luxury gated community (not to be read as prison, but bearing some vague similarities hey could leave to do things, even relocate but through a managedprocess). It worked as an offer. Idi Amin died a free man in Saudi Arabia and Uganda had a government change without a bloody war.

Pinochet got the same offer, and accepted it then years later was arrested in the UK when the Blair government refused to honour prior treaties. This caused some problems for this program. and may be factored into why Saddam Hussein was offered similar but refused.

Pinochet's case make give the North Korean junta some pause for thought, however there is still hope and principal that it is easier to let a dictator get away with his crimes on a personal level if they give up power and don't force a war to remove them.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I reckon if this problem was solvable, we'd have solved it already. Like djones520 says, any aggressive act could result in horrific causalities in Seoul, and everyone knows that. Unless we develop some sort of foolproof way to prevent that, we're limited in what we can do.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Orlanth wrote:
One way to solve Norh Korea is o offer blanket 'Idi Amin' deals, they would have to be offered to all important officials.

The deal Idi Amin was offered and took was that if he relinquished power then he, his family and his lieutenants would be given blanket and total immunity from prosecution and can live out their lives in a luxury gated community (not to be read as prison, but bearing some vague similarities hey could leave to do things, even relocate but through a managedprocess). It worked as an offer. Idi Amin died a free man in Saudi Arabia and Uganda had a government change without a bloody war.

Pinochet got the same offer, and accepted it then years later was arrested in the UK when the Blair government refused to honour prior treaties. This caused some problems for this program. and may be factored into why Saddam Hussein was offered similar but refused.

Pinochet's case make give the North Korean junta some pause for thought, however there is still hope and principal that it is easier to let a dictator get away with his crimes on a personal level if they give up power and don't force a war to remove them.

Don't think that'll work... lil' Kim is God-Emperor of North Korea.

Can't see him giving that up.

The current state is favorable for China... that is, having NK being a "thorn" to the West.

If Japan or SK starts amassing Nukes... that calculus may change.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

We need that Oprah Meme where everyone gets a car, but replace it with Nukes.

That will show them.

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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Da Boss wrote:
I reckon if this problem was solvable, we'd have solved it already.


Every problem is solvable, you just need the political will do so. The fact that North Korea now is just about capable of landing a nuclear weapon onto Hawaii and Alaska has changed the situation.

Every president since the mid-80s has kicked the can down the road, and now we're out of road.

I would still lean towards leaning on China - there has to be some sort of deal to be made.

War is really not a serious option, I don't think, all things being equal - there are just going to be too many casualties. Of course "all things being equal" isn't always a permanent state of affairs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 22:10:46


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
IAll these approaches need the support primarily of the Chinese.


Yep either in a passive or active capacity China has to be on board. Until the Chinese get sick of N.Korea and decide to either take action themselves or cut them loose and look the other way, containment is the least worst option.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan




ANY strategy that involves Patrick explaining how it works is fine with me. Ill at least hear the Starfish out.


Funny though I was just talking about when someone should do something with N. Korea.
   
 
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