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I put this in the general discussion sections but it might also go here.

I've been toying with the idea of an all tzaangor list. Either a non battalion list with 2 shamans, 3x20 tzaangors and 2x6 skyfires, or a list with 1x20 and 2x10 tzaangors and the skyshoal coven with 2x6 skyfires and 1x6 enlightened on discs. I'm told that skyfires are OP as well as Discs on both Skyfires and enlightended. I don't see it. Are Skyrfires and enlightened on discs OP?

Enlightened are strong, I wouldn't say OP.

12 skyfires with a shaman is what most consider OP, they are very fast, durable (with 4 wounds each and a 4+ save), incredible good at shooting (putting out lots of moral wounds) and actually really good in combat if they get to hit first. Definitely very strong, a mate of mine plays 15 with a bloodletter bomb and sayl stormfiends, its just a lot of mortal wounds to deal with.

Enlightened aren't OP at all I would saw, but definitely a very good unit, although I have yet to see them taken en masse, unlike skyfires.

The biggest gripe I've heard is that the discs do too much damage. D3 hits that do D3 wounds? I don't see that as an issue unless you think you are really lucky and roll high.

pepsuber wrote:
The biggest gripe I've heard is that the discs do too much damage. D3 hits that do D3 wounds? I don't see that as an issue unless you think you are really lucky and roll high.

Its that paired with the 2" reach, skyfires are amazing at shooting (provided you have a shaman nearby) and still really good in combat, especially when you get to hit first.

Enlightened are OP just not as much as Skyfires so they seem tame by comparison. Both units simply dont pay enough points for what they do.

The thing that strikes me as particularly powerful about skyfires (and enlightened too) is l how the fold reality spell can affect them when they are on discs. Very strong imho but not completely without risk.

Tzaangors are quite strong, sadly the massive amount of salt and tears their enligthend and skyfire brethern have generated will likely see a big points hike in ghii...the good thing then is you can just switch it up bring some demons and still table >75% of the people youll play against by turn 2 leading to a new torrent of salt and tears, or whine to bathe yourself in

The biggest problems with Skyfires are three fold:

1. They are a super fast ranged unit. They are literally impossible for some armies to pin down.

2. The have access to far too many synergies boosting their effectiveness. They are much stronger in a generic Chaos list compared to a pure DoT list.

3. Because of their synergy access, the units get exponentially stronger rather than gradually as you add models to the unit.

Their ranged damage output is not exactly stellar on it own, averaging around 1 damage each (completely ignoring that armor exists) even when backed by a Shaman, but the above throws them into craziness though. They are easy to down with any sort of range of your own though, rocking only a 5+ save a bravery 6.

Enlightened are pretty mediocre honestly. They can get to combat, sure. But the amount of damage they throw out on average is pretty meh for their cost. Additionally, their special rule rewards them for letting your opponent beat on them first. Once again, only a 5+ save. Assuming you could get a full 6 into combat, and swing first, they average 17 damage ignoring armor exists at all (good luck doing much of anything to anyone that has 3+ armor, or obscene things like SD stormcasts/rooted Sylvaneth), unless you bring a shaman to the front lines with them which ups things to around 19-20 damage. They are admittedly decent for chopping up low armor hordes and warmachine crews, but they are pricey for those roles, and that usefulness will depend on local meta.

AverageBoss wrote:
The biggest problems with Skyfires are three fold:

1. They are a super fast ranged unit. They are literally impossible for some armies to pin down.

2. The have access to far too many synergies boosting their effectiveness. They are much stronger in a generic Chaos list compared to a pure DoT list.

3. Because of their synergy access, the units get exponentially stronger rather than gradually as you add models to the unit.

Their ranged damage output is not exactly stellar on it own, averaging around 1 damage each (completely ignoring that armor exists) even when backed by a Shaman, but the above throws them into craziness though. They are easy to down with any sort of range of your own though, rocking only a 5+ save a bravery 6.

Enlightened are pretty mediocre honestly. They can get to combat, sure. But the amount of damage they throw out on average is pretty meh for their cost. Additionally, their special rule rewards them for letting your opponent beat on them first. Once again, only a 5+ save. Assuming you could get a full 6 into combat, and swing first, they average 17 damage ignoring armor exists at all (good luck doing much of anything to anyone that has 3+ armor, or obscene things like SD stormcasts/rooted Sylvaneth), unless you bring a shaman to the front lines with them which ups things to around 19-20 damage. They are admittedly decent for chopping up low armor hordes and warmachine crews, but they are pricey for those roles, and that usefulness will depend on local meta.

Thats the thing, you dont need to pin skyfires down at all if you have any even mediocre shooting or even artillery its easy to remove them from the table...this is why as a secondary tzeentch player im glad skyfires get so much of the B&Ming from bad players who dont know how to countet them at all compared to other things in the list that are much much much worse

Mesokhornee wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
The biggest problems with Skyfires are three fold:

1. They are a super fast ranged unit. They are literally impossible for some armies to pin down.

2. The have access to far too many synergies boosting their effectiveness. They are much stronger in a generic Chaos list compared to a pure DoT list.

3. Because of their synergy access, the units get exponentially stronger rather than gradually as you add models to the unit.

Their ranged damage output is not exactly stellar on it own, averaging around 1 damage each (completely ignoring that armor exists) even when backed by a Shaman, but the above throws them into craziness though. They are easy to down with any sort of range of your own though, rocking only a 5+ save a bravery 6.

Enlightened are pretty mediocre honestly. They can get to combat, sure. But the amount of damage they throw out on average is pretty meh for their cost. Additionally, their special rule rewards them for letting your opponent beat on them first. Once again, only a 5+ save. Assuming you could get a full 6 into combat, and swing first, they average 17 damage ignoring armor exists at all (good luck doing much of anything to anyone that has 3+ armor, or obscene things like SD stormcasts/rooted Sylvaneth), unless you bring a shaman to the front lines with them which ups things to around 19-20 damage. They are admittedly decent for chopping up low armor hordes and warmachine crews, but they are pricey for those roles, and that usefulness will depend on local meta.

Thats the thing, you dont need to pin skyfires down at all if you have any even mediocre shooting or even artillery its easy to remove them from the table...this is why as a secondary tzeentch player im glad skyfires get so much of the B&Ming from bad players who dont know how to countet them at all compared to other things in the list that are much much much worse

Some armies completely lack shooting and/or speed. Most Undead lists have a real rough time with them for example (then again, Undead has a hard time wit many things).

I have a heavy crypt flayer list that has little problem killing skyfires or any other army for that matter that ive played also should add nerfs buffs etc should never be made to compensate the weakness of one army specifically vs another...like i said before though im exceedingly glad bad players cry so much about enlightened/skyfires as it makes them totally clueless to far more annoying and admittedly broken things one can do with a tzeentch army