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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

So I am a fan of horror games and rpgs especially, but one thing that I always find myself thinking about is how do you turn horror into good mechanics?

The only big game I'm aware of that has something like this is Call of Chthulu, and that focuses on a dwindling sanity level that eventually leads to the retirement or insanity of a character. I'm wondering what other mechanics in an rpg can be implemented to make horror both scary, but also engaging for the players.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Very interesting topic. I had a similar quandary working on a game where the aim was to recreate the old 80s style slasher movies in miniature form. The idea was that the player controls 1 or more people who are faced with a powerful, possibly inhuman, killer. The idea was that the players would have to cooperate and make strategic decisions to escape. Working against this was the killer's unknown motive (that can make different strategies more or less effective) and the fact that players could unwittingly or willfully work against each other to try secure their own survival.

For inspiration, I looked towards games like Betrayal at House on the Hill, Zombies, and the like.

Usually, the threat is going to be external and non-player controlled (though Betrayal actively casts a player as antagonist) to encourage cooperation. By having the threat rise of time, a game can create growing tension. Likewise, having players be depleted over time raises the sense of dread (limited or no recovery). Dread uses a neat mechanic that encompasses both- a Jenga tower. Want to do something? Pull a pieces. If the tower falls, something terrible happens.

Games like Arkham Horror are much too "rulesy" for my taste and have players fighting to remember the system as much as anything!

-James
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

I've seen Dread in action, that is a very cool system. I'd love to try it sometime.

The one thing I feel that would make for an amazing horror game is the slow loss of player agency. What comes to mind is taking a cyberpunk/Shadowrun setting where augmentation for the characters is abundant. What if the setting dove into the loss of self, both through the gradual mechanization, but what if also those augmentations turned?

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Great topic, and I wish I had more to say.

However, Strane Aeons maybe of interst to you to look at. It is a mini game and not an RPG though.

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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





SoCal

For a miniature game, try including XP and progression on characters that can die.

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

For most RPGs, there is an emphasis on growth and development. I would argue that for a horror RPG, it should be reversed. So players start healthy, optimistic, and mentally balanced. As sessions play out, they will be exposed to horrors both physical and mental. Stress and fatigue will take its toll mentally and physically. If they manage to survive, they will likely be numb to much of what they have seen. Repeatedly survive, and they are likely to have hair triggers or borderline sociopathy. Perhaps they may even come to understand that which they face and start to agree....

I would play it as a balance of ability and humanity. So, perhaps players can bid to survive even terrible wounds or function in crippling fear, but they have to give something up in exchange. So maybe they get back up from what should have been a fatal blow and finish off the killer for good. But now they have tasted death's power and have developed a sadistic streak. Or perhaps seeing their friends die drives them to a mania that helps them overwhelm their foe and hold it back long enough for the sun to rise and disperse them, but that rage is now never far away.

The long game is that everyone either dies, loses all functional sanity, or becomes a monster themselves. Maybe that's why the darkness was drawn to them in the first place- either an easy target or something more.

The danger is that such a game could turn into a mopey mope fest. To avoid that, encourage heroic, but not stupid, sacrifice. Survivors who live at the expense of others *are* giving up their humanity. Sacrifice is the ultimate protection and act of selfless humanity. Characters need to make hard decisions about what they are willing to give up. Likewise, senseless death should be an ever present threat, so even if you are willing to give up friends, family, etc. it might still not be enough.

I think a solid game has to capture both the internal and external struggle. Too much external and it's just monster of the week action. Too much internal and it becomes a navel gazing angst fest. In the end, I think horror revolves around coming to terms with limits- limits of human mortality, limits of human morality, etc., where those limits are and what happens when people ignore them or believe they don't apply to them. It's why you see common elements of isolation, physical danger, deprivation, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 13:09:36


-James
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Some folks on a different board recommended the following to me about Horror.....

Doom Clocks- as time goes things get harder/more deadly/more complicated.

Darkness/visibility- If characters can not really see what is coming (but players can) it can add to a feeling of dread. Related to this is stealth mechanics.

Checks that degrade your freedom of action while playing. Limiting choices to bad vs. worse can add to the horror.

Unequal power levels. Sometimes, not being as good as the enemy can be scary.

Just some thoughts.




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Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Doom clocks are interesting. The premise is Actions advance the clock. There is no rewind. I can easily see how this applies to a horror game. Let's say you use a literal clock counting down to midnight. Maybe you start at 3 pm. Afternoon- still light and sunny, but sunset is on the horizon. Maybe you don't get there until dark, and have a smaller window. Each scene, you have the opportunity to take some actions, probably limited by location and where the character is. Each scene advance the clock, depending on the actions with actions by *any* player burning a tick. So you get a chance to visit locations so you don't blindly stumble through them later or get lost (burn a tick), do some research, (burn a tick), maybe eat some food to prevent future fatigue/passing out (burn a tick) or socialize to mitigate the likely future interparty stressors (burn a tick). Maybe you try to prepare tools, supplies, or check weapons to make sure they work (burn a tic). After all, it won't do you much good to try to start the car if it doesn't work anyway! At midnight, the killer strikes. Maybe after that, the clock is more ambiguous and you get 6 ticks. And sometimes panic/stress/fear forces a character do something. Hope you make it!

-James
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

What sort of horror genre are you intending to have in your game?

Vampire / slasher is different from Cthulu is different from preventing Doomsday.

   
Made in us
Crushing Clawed Fiend




Austin, Texas

The main goal is to emit the sense of dread and the overwhelming possibility of failure. True horror sticks with the mind and makes characters (and their players) remember that horror for the rest of their lives. This is why most horror games (White Wolf's World of Darkness for example) focus more on story telling than mechanics. However, if you want to give an artificial sense of horror in respond to mechanics, I have a few ideas.

The Doom Clock is a great idea, and best utilized about mid-game or once the players have had time to let their characters grow. If they know their character is going to die in the first few minutes, then it's less likely they will care if they live or die.

Speaking of timing, actions play another important roll. Think of movies like Saw or games like Until Dawn where actions are everything. Knowing that the fate of your character is not in your hands, but of another player, or even a game master, can drive players to worry over their actions. Combined with the Doom Clock, and you have players making mistakes, which is a huge horror trope.

Uneven power levels help, but you don't want uber god vs newbs. You want animalism vs humanity. Watch any horror movie that requires survival. Zombie movies are notorious for this. The environment brings out the worst in people and cause them to become their own horror. Having reasons for players to betray eachother to a, while fairly easy yet lethal, threat will bring out the fear in everyone.
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Adelaide, South Australia

I think it comes partly down to who you're playing with. Truly great RPG players will handle that side of things.

But if one must have mechanics, I currently favour having a mental endurance system not unlike a physical one. In my current game, players can take Scratches, Injuries and Wounds, of which they have a set amount. Many Scratches, some Injuries and a few Wounds. When one fills up the next one automatically becomes the next level (though you can outright receive a higher damage type). I use an exact similar system for mental health- Irks, Hurts and Trauma. From there, you treat them like normal 'wound penalties' that prevent a character from acting because their body is just not up to it. Same with mental.

The general gist is you can break someone either by inflicting lots of tiny damage (be in physical or mental) or by bigger blows, but you also don't need to have specific damage. A 'Scratch' can be anything from an actual blade only inflicting a light scratch to the haft of an axe into your ribs or even a good solid punch in the head. Likewise a Wound can be anything from a solid blow of the warhammer to an expertly placed 6" blade. Dead is dead, whether you're whole or in bits.

If you apply the same thing to mental states, you get characters who are invested in keeping themselves mentally healthy, especially if you as a GM keep hitting them with the stress of things. Yeah, sure you can sleep in your armour, but it'll cost you an Irk. And yeah, you can put on a brave face when you get socially mocked, but deep down that's a Hurt. You want to betray your team mate and leave them to die? Ok, but that's going to cause Trauma. And just like physical injuries, deep emotional ones can leave lasting scars too.

At least that's how I play it. It seems to encourage narrative play more and a type of concern for characters beyond 'Do you have hit points?'

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Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

I am also a fan of the wound model (though death spirals are a thing...). It makes the injuries more "real" as they are not just some abstract number and can clearly impact play. I probably wouldn't bother tracking superficial injuries ("scratches") if they do not impact play. Maybe give them a slight penalty the next day from general soreness, but life threatening situations are going to produce enough adrenaline you can effectively ignore them (though it may prolong recovery). I would divide injury them into minor, major, and critical injuries. Minor injuries are non life threatening, but impairing. They could get worse from extreme exertion or infection, but are otherwise likely to heal without major complication. This is your typical deep abrasions, minor broken bones (especially digits, ribs, nose, etc), moderate contusions (including minor head trauma), etc. Major injuries are potentially life threatening and frequently disabling. They will generally get worse without attention as they are prone to infection or aggravation. This is major broken bones, severe lacerations, traumatic head injury, etc. They need attention and are very likely to have long term affects.

Critical injuries are immediately life threatening and disabling. Without immediate attention, death will occur. These require skilled treatment and frequently still result in permanent disability or death. Recovery is generally very slow, prone to problems, and never guaranteed. This would include partially or fully severed limbs, severe head injuries, significant damage to internal organs etc.

I totally agree that mental health should be similarly tracked as it tracks surprisingly close to physical health. Minor injuries would be unusually severe stressors that generally results in temporary reactions. This would include sleep deprivation, prolonged hunger, facing imminent bodily injury/physical risk, social embarrassment/loss of position or prestige, relationship disputes, etc. Generally time will help, and long term risks are low assuming these events don't keep piling up.

Major injuries could result from prolonged abuse, torture, intense relationship problems, death of loved ones, being faced with imminent injury or death, and other major psychological stressors. These are likely life changing events and will likely result long term responses and frequently lead to dysfunctional coping mechanisms. Like physical injuries, immediate incapacitation (or fallback to instinctual involuntary responses like rage) is likely as the mind struggles to process. In a horror setting, every character who survives is likely to have at least one major mental injury from the situation.

A critical injury would be fairly rare, but more common in a horror or supernatural environment. This is something so serious that it can cause permanent mental shutdown or overall loss of functionality. Again, without immediate attention, the individual is likely to die or by permanently dysfunctional. Even with treatment, significant loss of ability is likely. This is your classic dancing with Cthulhu moment.

-James
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

3 tiers of mental damage to mirror 3 tiers of physical damage? That's a little fiddly, but I get what it's trying to do.

In my case, it'd boil down to tracking mental HM in addition to physical HP, probably at the Trauma / Wound level of granularity a Will stat that parallels the Defense/Armor stat(s).

Or, if we were going to do a horror game "correctly", then wouldn't we simplify the physical condition to OK-Wounded-Dead (or even Living/Dead), and have more of the detail on the mental side?

   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Adelaide, South Australia

It's definitely a bit fiddly, yes. The system is still in playtesting but like all systems, once you get used to it, it works better. Also it's worth noting that the game it's for isn't strictly horror, though it does have strong elements of mental degradation/sanity loss/grip on reality. Specifically, lesser demons will attack you physically (and be defeated that way). The more insidious demons will attack you mentally, break you down, and then make you an offer any *sane* person would refuse... But then you make it just like a physical check. A character can't climb a wall with broken arms, nor can they resist a demon when they have nothing to fight it for.

For a straight up horror game one track might be worth while, where different events cause different levels of trauma though. My system is more for longer term games that deal with more than just sanity. It also allows you to have characters at a breaking point from sheer stress- especially if a player decides to play Loner McAsshole-Stat-God (something you really shouldn't see in a horror game anyway). So yeah, perhaps not ideal for straight up horror.

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Gencon Nationals 2nd Place and Hardcore Champion 2009 
   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle






The traitor aspect is also used a lot in horror, where you can not trust the players you are with, it goes a long way..
Always in the back of your mind what the other players are up to.. ???
Players with each having their own goals at the end of the game is a great example of this..
That adds to being alone feeling, another staple of the horror theme.. We had a game everyone got a piece of paper
with a goal written on it... but all the papers was blank... just added to the distrust at the table.

 
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest





Somewhere.

Dark Heresy (and co's) Corruption system is also a nice idea. Staring into the truly supernatural horror will likely take a toll on your soul and body as well as your mind. Having the horror take a mechanical effect in that regard can be helpful, depending on the game.

Plus there's nothing quite like the Sister of Battle having to hide the fact she now has armour plated skin and eyes of pure flame. Try explaining that one to the Cannoness.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Yeah, but if you like Traitor, doesn't Ultimate Werewolf do it far better?

   
Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

The main thing that every horror shouldn't let you do is fight back. The threat must always be something the player cannot overcome. If your horror game has weapons for example they shouldn't be able to kill anything, only slow down. Another thing is that there should never be a moment in which the player feels 100% safe. Sure, there should be moments of greater and lesser danger, but leting the player be 100% safe at any time lets him think clearly, and horror games are all about making the player panic.

   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

I like the above suggestions, i'd just add one thing: hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. Players should have a hope of winning, even if its a long shot and even if its not the victory they're expecting. If you go into a bad situation expecting the worst, then you won't be very surprised when things go south. For true horror, you have to see the way out even if you'll never be able to reach it.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Power Elephant wrote:
The main thing that every horror shouldn't let you do is fight back. The threat must always be something the player cannot overcome. If your horror game has weapons for example they shouldn't be able to kill anything, only slow down. Another thing is that there should never be a moment in which the player feels 100% safe. Sure, there should be moments of greater and lesser danger, but leting the player be 100% safe at any time lets him think clearly, and horror games are all about making the player panic.


It's been a while since this thread, but having started playing Kingdom Death : Monster since then, I have to disagree about not fighting back. Fighting back is important, but success has to require long odds for a brief respite. Fundamentally, survival in a horror universe is HARD, and threat management is not necessarily within the player's control.

   
 
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