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Now that spam is the offical competitive style of list building, how does everyone feel about it? Is it healthy for the game? Is it healthy for the community?

I am wondering if codecies will change this course or just double down on the spam hammer? Also what sort of rift will be created while most armies are still running index spam while a few are running a new codex.

What do you all think dakka?

It depends on the spam. Nobody's gonna care if you spam tacticals for example.

Spam's perfectly fine.

Besides, what do you mean by "now" that spam is the official competitive style of list building? You never played before?

 Melissia wrote:
Spam's perfectly fine.

Besides, what do you mean by "now" that spam is the official competitive style of list building? You never played before?

Yeah I think I played one time before!

It's at a whole new level on the competitive scene due to the new army composition rules.

Pancakey wrote:
Now that spam is the offical competitive style of list building, how does everyone feel about it? Is it healthy for the game? Is it healthy for the community?

I am wondering if codecies will change this course or just double down on the spam hammer? Also what sort of rift will be created while most armies are still running index spam while a few are running a new codex.

What do you all think dakka?

What do you mean "now"?

Spam has always been a thing in 40k, especially competitive. Leaf blower in 5th was literally "copy paste" the army list.

Technically if you're bringing something like IG you SHOULD be spamming just to have your army fluffy. Multiple infantry squads with similar loadouts, dedicated heavy weapon teams, multiple tanks in similar composition to represent and armored platoon/company joining in, etc. Other armies are different of course but necrons, Tau, orks, and Nids all have spam built into their armies as a background thing.

For competitive, spam is an important part because it increases reliability and allows for fall back plans, as well as just being a hell of a lot easier to remember. For example, would you want to play an IG player who has a unique weapon loadout for every unit he has? 9 infantry squads with different weapons, 3 russes with different weapons, every officer packing some random item or ability.

Or would you rather play the guard player who looks at you and says "every infantry squad is plasma/heavy Bolter, every tank is a demolisher, all officers have shotgun/chainsword, etc"

Not only is the second easier to remember, he'll be much faster during his turn as well

Pancakey wrote:
It's at a whole new level on the competitive scene due to the new army composition rules.

No, it really isn't. 7th was far worse than this in regards to spam.

I don't think there is a real "community" to 40K, rather several separate communities.

Spam is effective due to poor rules or loopholes normally (failue to appropriately cost stuff - and people being drawn to tournaments/prize support). Is it "healthy"? Nah, but it's inevitable. You need look no further than the army composition part of this forum.

Q: "I want to run a 1500 point list of X!"

A: "Take these three identical HQ units and six identical units of this..."

Effective? Sure. Exciting? No. Interesting? No. Boring? God yes. I won't even bother playing a list like that. I don't give two gaks about winning, but if you're going to stomp me into the ground at least make it seem cool, or look cool doing it.

 Melissia wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
It's at a whole new level on the competitive scene due to the new army composition rules.

No, it really isn't. 7th was far worse than this in regards to spam.

Its more a question of if spam is healthy/positive for the game and community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As 8th ed just dropped and its very clear everyone can and will spam to win. Before there were limits. Now, not so much.

Spam is fluffy and fun for many armies.

I play an IG superheavy regiment, which in the fluff by definition is disallowed from having other unit types.

If you want to play other unit types, I have a friend who runs a guard infantry regiment with zero vehicles as is fluffy for his regiment. You can fight us together mixing our units (as is also fluffy when the Imperial Guard forms a battlegroup from two existing regiments), but my army if you want to play me is going to be a company of 3-5 vehicles plus, points allowing, the Regiment's integral support units (officers, XOs, maintenance personnel, etc.).

Pancakey wrote:
Its more a question of if spam is healthy/positive for the game and community.

Spam is fine. Unbalanced units are bad.

Pancakey wrote:
As 8th ed just dropped and its very clear everyone can and will spam to win. Before there were limits. Now, not so much.

Pfft, no there weren't. Again, you didn't play past editions, did you? Because oh man did formations go horrible places.

The last time the game was more balanced than this was early fifth edition. And even then people spammed. Hell people spammed back in 3rd and 4th, and even moreso back in 2nd, given the unbalanced broken mess that 2nd was.

I remember skimmer spam back in 4th, long fang spam in 5th, heldrake spam in early 6th, and riptide spam in 7th.

Spam has always been in 40k its part of the game. Taking multiples of a unit provide consistency and redundancy in a list which is great in a dice game. Its not bad it is what it is.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For example, would you want to play an IG player who has a unique weapon loadout for every unit he has? 9 infantry squads with different weapons, 3 russes with different weapons, every officer packing some random item or ability.

Or would you rather play the guard player who looks at you and says "every infantry squad is plasma/heavy Bolter, every tank is a demolisher, all officers have shotgun/chainsword, etc"

Not only is the second easier to remember, he'll be much faster during his turn as well

Hands down the first one every time. Way more interesting and immersive. It's not that hard to just look at what the model's holding, anyway.

It's the nature of the units being spammed that is any problem, not that they are being spammed to begin with.

Why are spam units being spammed? If that's the problem, don't blame the symptom.

One thing that is interesting is if you actually try to talk to someone about what exactly constitutes spam, it'll turn out that using lots and lots of a unit they like is "not spam". It's only spam if it's a unit they don't like.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It's the nature of the units being spammed that is any problem, not that they are being spammed to begin with.

Why are spam units being spammed? If that's the problem, don't blame the symptom.

This basically. If your game has minimal layers of interaction between different units, and all units fundamentally play off similar rules, you ultimately end up reducing unit viability to that optimum of speed, durability, and damage-per-turn, which in turn can reduce the game to one or two units that are best for their cost. Spam is the symptom of poor internal balance.

 ross-128 wrote:
One thing that is interesting is if you actually try to talk to someone about what exactly constitutes spam, it'll turn out that using lots and lots of a unit they like is "not spam". It's only spam if it's a unit they don't like.

Pretty much. Like thta one guy that said "SPAM IS BAD! (unless it's troops choices then it's okay)".

It can be healthy, if it presents a "bar for entry" to more advanced play.

For example, the Zerg Rush, or 6-pool, or 10-pool, or whatever the kids are calling it these days . The idea in Starcraft is that you build a group of attackers before anyone else can build anything useful and attack with it. It's easily defeated if your opponent knows you're going for it. While lots of people said it was cheesy, the existence of the Zerg Rush as an easy-to-do strategy created a bar for higher-level play. You had to know how to beat a Zerg Rush if you wanted to play well. There was a whole other level of gameplay if you advanced further, but that other level was likely beyond you unless you could beat Zerg Rush.

Spam strategies CAN do the same thing in 40k, but only if there's a higher level of play AFTER the spam. It has to be "spam can only take you so far" in that it's really good, but after that point, really terrible.

40k CAN get there as they continue to tweak and improve, but it needs to have the right combination of threats and answers. If something is terrorrizing the meta, that something is either overpowered for its cost, or there's not enough answers that are effective for their cost.

 ross-128 wrote:
One thing that is interesting is if you actually try to talk to someone about what exactly constitutes spam, it'll turn out that using lots and lots of a unit they like is "not spam". It's only spam if it's a unit they don't like.

HAHAH. This is too true!

 Nazrak wrote:
Hands down the first one every time. Way more interesting and immersive

There's nothing immersive about every unit in a professional army being a haphazard slapdash of random crap you threw together just to be "unique". If anything, it's actually anti-immersive.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It's the nature of the units being spammed that is any problem, not that they are being spammed to begin with.

Why are spam units being spammed? If that's the problem, don't blame the symptom.

This basically. If your game has minimal layers of interaction between different units, and all units fundamentally play off similar rules, you ultimately end up reducing unit viability to that optimum of speed, durability, and damage-per-turn, which in turn can reduce the game to one or two units that are best for their cost. Spam is the symptom of poor internal balance.

Perfect synopsis of what is happening with as of right now. Complete and utter lack of internal balance. BUT HEY! All units are viable right?

People just complain. Of course people are going to use as many of their best unit as possible.

Why wouldn't you?

But to me, spam would be when you see it everywhere. For instance, Riptide Wing. That was spammed. There is nothing even remotely near that level in 8th.

 Marmatag wrote:
People just complain. Of course people are going to use as many of their best unit as possible.

Why wouldn't you? .

With an army that has say, 20 different units to choose from you would HOPE that there is some choice as to what is "best". GW did insist all units would be "viable"; is this the case?

And the more important question is , will this easy access to spam for ALL armies be HEALTHY for the warhammer community?

Pancakey wrote:
With an army that has say, 20 different units to choose from

What about the armies that barely have eight units to use from?

Any fix to solve "spam" other htan points adjustments to individual units will inevitably have ripple effects that will negatively impact other armies that aren't the problem.

 Melissia wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
With an army that has say, 20 different units to choose from

What about the armies that barely have eight units to use from?

Any fix to solve "spam" other htan points adjustments to individual units will inevitably have ripple effects that will negatively impact other armies that aren't the problem.

What's wrong with adding more play options in-game, and making techpieces more viable overall?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
What's wrong with adding more play options in-game, and making techpieces more viable overall?

Saying "no spam" is taking play options away.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Spam is healthy enough, little salty for my taste though.

Well if you are into mechanically separated chicken and bits

Spam means different things to everyone.


Personally i find it to mean taking only the best efficient things in your army as possible and taking a lot of them that the game allows.
Is it bad for the game to do so? depends on the game and the people playing it. Tourny level no thats inherently how people play competitive games. Competitive gamers boil down everything and make the best most efficient route possible. that is not limited to 40k thats every game.

For fluff bunnies or casuals? possibly yes. a Spam list isnt necessarily not fluffy but if done so for the purposes of my version of the meaning of taking only the best efficient things in your army then yeah its probably not going to be fun.

All in all Spam is going to make things salty

and we all know competitive gamers can get VERY salty

Voted "Spam is Life" because I like my Russ tanks, and you NEED to have repeated options in most armies. Even if 40k was balanced and "realistic" you'd end up bringing 2-4 of the same troops choice.

 Selym wrote:
Voted "Spam is Life" because I like my Russ tanks, and you NEED to have repeated options in most armies. Even if 40k was balanced and "realistic" you'd end up bringing 2-4 of the same troops choice.

I totally agree with you. 4 russ isn't the problem. It's armies consisting of 10+ of the same model all with the fly rule. Or 100 undercosted conscripts/flocks. These builds are totally viable now and will be seen in all settings casual and tourney alike.

Conscripts aren't overpowered. They're mildly durable, and that's about it. Aside from durability they have literally nothing else g oing for them, and it's not hard to find units taht can just delete them from the map in a turn or two.

Depends on if its fluffy spam or boring/WAAC spam.
150 boyz spam in a green tide list - fluffy.
All bikes/serpents Saim Hann list - fluffy.
Ravenwing biker list - fluffy.

Guilliman leading 120 conscripts backed up by 4 manticores and StormRavens. Not fluffy (imo).