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Made in us
Drone without a Controller



St, Paul Mn

Hello, so first i want to start out by saying that i am a "that guy" my self, but only when it comes to list building. i try to take stronger units and make dirty lists, but i am a friendly player and am always looking to have a good time. i played a game at a local shop and i faced off a strict rule follower (had a double standard when it came to his army so he kept me on my toes not allowing any shenanigans). any way i have a couple of rule questions that i am missing in the book/ misinterpreting. it one of those i have read/heard it somewhere but i cant find it.

For a vehicle to gain a bonus cover save, does a vechile have to be 50% obscured? or does the vehicle have to be 50% obscured and fully on a terrain platform (like infantry). for example in a first floor ruin and 50% obscured from the shooter, or like behind a building and in a forest platform? i was under the impression you only needed to be obscured. help pls.

What is your definition of hull? and from what point do you measure to a storm raven. that guy demanded that the wings were apart of the hull. i had difficulty flying around because my wings would be within an inch of an enemy unit. i have been playing that the fuselage/ or the chassis is the hull. not the wings/guns for vehicles

a character with a wound characteristic greater than 10, for example a hive tyrant. i shoot at it with a storm raven ( all of my weapons) and it lives it now has 4 wounds. because it is a character can i target it with my next unit? or because the characteristic is now less than 10 it is protected unless its the closest unit?

all in all i won the game but that guy made it very unenjoyable. i brought a competitive list i asked him can he deal with 3 storm ravens he said kinda, i suggested i can tone down my list and he said he wanted to try his list vs it then proceeded to complain the whole game

Thanks for you time

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 14:22:17


 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

I would count wings as part of the hull on an airplane type vehicle. Also, how were you having trouble moving around? The Stormraven has a base. You measure base to base for anything with a base, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If this helps... this is from the core rules. First page of the Battle Primer, I think...

"Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 14:19:02


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Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Kriswall wrote:
I would count wings as part of the hull on an airplane type vehicle. Also, how were you having trouble moving around? The Stormraven has a base. You measure base to base for anything with a base, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If this helps... this is from the core rules. First page of the Battle Primer, I think...

"Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish."


Yeah you measure using bases unless a rule on the datasheet tells you otherwise (some do) unless there is no base, in which case any part of the model is the model. For being able to see the stormraven, any part of the model counts - there is no clause about wings/accessories not counting for line of sight anymore.

A vehicle has to be in the terrain AND obscured to get the save bonus.

The wound characteristic of the Hive Tyrant is 10, but it has 4 remaining. The datasheet is what determines if you can not target it, not current wounds. It doesn't gain protection just because it got hurt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 14:24:59


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






1. 50% obscured and touching the terrain
2. For measuring movement to enemy models, use the base. NO base? You can use any point on the model.
3. You can continue to target a character with more than 10 wounds because it's the wound characteristic that matters, not wounds currently remaining.

-three orange whips 
   
Made in us
Crushing Clawed Fiend




Austin, Texas

The hull is always used in the classical definition as the body or frame of a vehicle. In regards to planes, wings do not count as a hull, only the fuselage. The mast on a ship isn't part of the hull. However, since there is no proper definition of what GW considers a hull, it's mainly up to the TO, or agreement between players. As far as LOS, this is clearly defined in Stepping Into A New Edition, page 1:

Q. How do I determine if a model is visible to another model?
A. The models are visible to each other if you can draw a straight, uninterrupted line between any part of one model to any part of the other.
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller



St, Paul Mn

just wanted to say thanks. but I'm still a little unsure about the storm ravens nd want to make sure I got the rules down before heading to any tournaments.

So the issue wasn't LOS, it was moving the storm raven around and measuring to fire at the storm raven. We had this funny rule in our minds that we couldn't find.I may be totally wrong but, some units are bigger than the base (mainly flyers) so you measure to the hull of the vehicle instead. I had difficulty moving because since we were measuring to the hull, trying to fit in-between buildings and board edges my wings would be within on inch of an enemy and I couldn't fit there. He would also measure to shoot/deep strike from the edge on the wings saying that the wings were apart of the hull. (at least he was consistent in that regard). what do you think? I always played wings don't count. this is a huge hindrance on mobility if this is the case.
thanks again. may the dice roll in your favor
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Yeah you're totally wrong. Storm Ravens measure to and from the base.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





That rule about measuring to models larger then the base does not exist. If it has a base you always measure from the base: and wings do count for part of the hull of the vehicle but it won't be an issue since you measure to the base

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 19:54:45


 
   
Made in nl
Bounding Assault Marine






Besides all the correctness of "it has a base, use that", why wouldn't the wings count as part of the hull? Shoot one off the plane, see it tumbling down ending in a very unpleasant death for almost all its crew and passengers as it no longer has a wonderful means of aerial stability, you probably got the point by now.

   
Made in us
Crushing Clawed Fiend




Austin, Texas

Ask Bowing if wings are part of the fuselage, which is considered the hull, and they will laugh. Ask GW and they will say, sure but use the base. I think the "hull" rules only apply to tabks, considering I don't think we have the technology for aircraft models to stay stationary without a base.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

teknoskan wrote:
Ask Bowing if wings are part of the fuselage, which is considered the hull, and they will laugh. Ask GW and they will say, sure but use the base. I think the "hull" rules only apply to tabks, considering I don't think we have the technology for aircraft models to stay stationary without a base.

Magnets.
   
Made in us
Crushing Clawed Fiend




Austin, Texas

nekooni wrote:
teknoskan wrote:
Ask Bowing if wings are part of the fuselage, which is considered the hull, and they will laugh. Ask GW and they will say, sure but use the base. I think the "hull" rules only apply to tabks, considering I don't think we have the technology for aircraft models to stay stationary without a base.

Magnets.


If you're implying magnetic hovering, it wouldn't work. The model would likely shoot off the table before remaining stationary.
   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Well there was this guy:

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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

teknoskan wrote:
nekooni wrote:
teknoskan wrote:
Ask Bowing if wings are part of the fuselage, which is considered the hull, and they will laugh. Ask GW and they will say, sure but use the base. I think the "hull" rules only apply to tabks, considering I don't think we have the technology for aircraft models to stay stationary without a base.

Magnets.


If you're implying magnetic hovering, it wouldn't work. The model would likely shoot off the table before remaining stationary.


And on the other hand....

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The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






West Bend WI.

1. 50% obscured and touching the terrain
2. For measuring movement to enemy models, use the base. NO base? You can use any point on the model.
3. You can continue to target a character with more than 10 wounds because it's the wound characteristic that matters, not wounds currently remaining.


number one is wrong, per the rule book FAQ all models in the unit must be fully on or within the terrain feature.

Q. Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters
etc.) gain the benefit of cover from woods, ruins etc. if they are at
least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain but are not actually
on or within it?
A. No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet
the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:
• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.
• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:23:44


8000pts.
7000pts.
5000pts.
on the way. 
   
Made in us
Snivelling Workbot




Gypsy Life

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
1. 50% obscured and touching the terrain
2. For measuring movement to enemy models, use the base. NO base? You can use any point on the model.
3. You can continue to target a character with more than 10 wounds because it's the wound characteristic that matters, not wounds currently remaining.


number one is wrong, per the rule book FAQ all models in the unit must be fully on or within the terrain feature.

Q. Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters
etc.) gain the benefit of cover from woods, ruins etc. if they are at
least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain but are not actually
on or within it?
A. No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet
the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:
• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.
• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).


Hijacking just for a second:

So I get it if it's behind/in terrain. What if the vehicle is behind a building that you can't shoot through and you see less than 50% of the model? Or, you have a vehicle blocking LOS for a vehicle behind it. The one behind is 50% obscured. Do these scenarios convey a cover save for the vehicle?

This may be simple to you guys, help a brother out. Thanks!

 Selym wrote:
So far, an interesting collection of unreliable data.
 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






West Bend WI.

unfortunately, no to both. There is no longer rules for intervening terrain or models granting cover. The only rules are infantry gets cover if they are wholly on or within terrain and vehicles monsters etc. get cover if they are wholly on or within terrain AND 50% obscured from the firing unit.

8000pts.
7000pts.
5000pts.
on the way. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think some people in this thread are conflating some issues.

MEASUREMENT: Always to the base unless it does not have a base (or has a special rule like hover tanks). GW flyers always have that oval base, so they are always measured to that base.

If there is no base, "hull" can be a bit debatable but generally means anything that's not a weapon or antenna or banner - wings are included in "hull" I think... largely because some models are nothing BUT wings.

LINE OF SIGHT: Any part of the model at all. Base is not relevant. "Hull" is not relevant. If any part of the model can draw a direct line through space to see any part of another model, it can see it.

COVER: Requires that the base is within terrain, and for vehicles also requires 50% line of sight blocked. I expect that this technically means you measure from every single point on your model to every single point on the other model? Not practical, but it should normally be obvious. Roll a die if you can't decide, or ask a TO.

Edit: Cover

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:33:38


 
   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





 Deathypoo wrote:
I think some people in this thread are conflating some issues.

MEASUREMENT: Always to the base unless it does not have a base (or has a special rule like hover tanks). GW flyers always have that oval base, so they are always measured to that base.

If there is no base, "hull" can be a bit debatable but generally means anything that's not a weapon or antenna or banner - wings are included in "hull" I think... largely because some models are nothing BUT wings.

LINE OF SIGHT: Any part of the model at all. Base is not relevant. "Hull" is not relevant. If any part of the model can draw a direct line through space to see any part of another model, it can see it.

COVER: Requires that the base is 100% inside cover terrain, and for vehicles also requires 50% line of sight blocked. I expect that this technically means you measure from every single point on your model to every single point on the other model? Not practical, but it should normally be obvious. Roll a die if you can't decide, or ask a TO.


Consider this FAQ item:

Fully within reflects the unit fully, as in all models, not the models' bases fully within.
[Thumb - IMG_20170719_215133.jpg]

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Good call, edit made.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

Not sure how big your stormravens are, but a lot of flyers are several inches above the models that some players try to say are within 1". Unless the actual model or the base is within and 1" (and only for those that specify hull for measurments)
Many if not most flyers will be above and more than 1" from the enemy, even if it is actually above.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in gb
Newbie Black Templar Neophyte





London

torblind wrote:
 Deathypoo wrote:
I think some people in this thread are conflating some issues.

MEASUREMENT: Always to the base unless it does not have a base (or has a special rule like hover tanks). GW flyers always have that oval base, so they are always measured to that base.

If there is no base, "hull" can be a bit debatable but generally means anything that's not a weapon or antenna or banner - wings are included in "hull" I think... largely because some models are nothing BUT wings.

LINE OF SIGHT: Any part of the model at all. Base is not relevant. "Hull" is not relevant. If any part of the model can draw a direct line through space to see any part of another model, it can see it.

COVER: Requires that the base is 100% inside cover terrain, and for vehicles also requires 50% line of sight blocked. I expect that this technically means you measure from every single point on your model to every single point on the other model? Not practical, but it should normally be obvious. Roll a die if you can't decide, or ask a TO.


Consider this FAQ item:

Fully within reflects the unit fully, as in all models, not the models' bases fully within.


Been debating this cover rule with my group lately, as i read it "Within" means inside unless it's followed by a distance which it never states. So a Rhino can be in cover if it's fully inside a Ruin and 50% obscured.
Also that FAQ you mentioned isn't from 8th edition, and "Wholly" is not found in the new rules, so "Within" means inside.




[Thumb - faq.png]
faq

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 15:17:59


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Either on or within.

So if a piece of the vehicle or models base is on the terrain, it's on the terrain. And should get the benefit if it meets the other criteria of being obscured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gendo wrote:

Also that FAQ you mentioned isn't from 8th edition, and "Wholly" is not found in the new rules, so "Within" means inside.






https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/warhammer_40000_rulebook_ENG.pdf

The 8th Edition FAQ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 15:41:04


 
   
Made in gb
Newbie Black Templar Neophyte





London

 d-usa wrote:
Either on or within.

So if a piece of the vehicle or models base is on the terrain, it's on the terrain. And should get the benefit if it meets the other criteria of being obscured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gendo wrote:

Also that FAQ you mentioned isn't from 8th edition, and "Wholly" is not found in the new rules, so "Within" means inside.






https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/warhammer_40000_rulebook_ENG.pdf

The 8th Edition FAQ


My bad, to make it clear to me then, if a Rhino is just touching a Ruin and 50% obscured is in cover right?

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 Gendo wrote:

My bad, to make it clear to me then, if a Rhino is just touching a Ruin and 50% obscured is in cover right?


Theoretically yes, but then you have the risk of getting into "where does the ruin begin" questions. If the ruin is just a building and the outer walls are the edge, does touching that edge make it be "on" the terrain? What if the wall is really low and the edge of the tracks are over the wall? Etc etc etc.

Depending on how people play, they might put their buildings on a cardboard base and agree that if part of a vehicle is on the base it counts as being on the terrain. Personally for me it would depend on the terrain. For a ruin, I would think you would have to be able to physically be on or inside the actual ruin but I would also make terrain that is big enough for a vehicle to physically drive on or into.

I think the big takeaway is to go over terrain with your opponent and make sure you both agree what each type is and where it begins before the game starts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 16:54:54


 
   
Made in gb
Newbie Black Templar Neophyte





London

 d-usa wrote:
 Gendo wrote:

My bad, to make it clear to me then, if a Rhino is just touching a Ruin and 50% obscured is in cover right?


Theoretically yes, but then you have the risk of getting into "where does the ruin begin" questions. If the ruin is just a building and the outer walls are the edge, does touching that edge make it be "on" the terrain? What if the wall is really low and the edge of the tracks are over the wall? Etc etc etc.

Depending on how people play, they might put their buildings on a cardboard base and agree that if part of a vehicle is on the base it counts as being on the terrain. Personally for me it would depend on the terrain. For a ruin, I would think you would have to be able to physically be on or inside the actual ruin but I would also make terrain that is big enough for a vehicle to physically drive on or into.

I think the big takeaway is to go over terrain with your opponent and make sure you both agree what each type is and where it begins before the game starts.


By "touching" i meant just over it, so outside of official rules if let's say a wall or a boulder doesn't have a base you can't take it as cover but it can always be discussed with your opponent and say "every scenery has a 1" area around it which counts as terrain, most of our terrain is based with a bit of ground around it so shouldn't be a problem.

Wonder how these technicalities affects tournaments and what terrain they use.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

I haven't played in a tournament since 5th, but there used to be rules like "everything is area terrain" so I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar blanket rules like that.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Interesting. Based on what people are saying here (I'm at school so I don't have books to hand to check) a Rhino that is just barely in a crater (thus in a terrain feature) and is behind a unbased ruin that obscures 51% of the model would get cover, but the same Rhino would not get cover if it was not in the crater. Kind of feels like the toe in cover nonsense that was around a few editions ago.
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut






babelfish wrote:
Interesting. Based on what people are saying here (I'm at school so I don't have books to hand to check) a Rhino that is just barely in a crater (thus in a terrain feature) and is behind a unbased ruin that obscures 51% of the model would get cover, but the same Rhino would not get cover if it was not in the crater. Kind of feels like the toe in cover nonsense that was around a few editions ago.

Nope.
First of this "in terrain feature" and "50% obscured" works only if terrain feature is Wood or Ruin. Nothing else.

Also Craters gives cover only for Infantry (standing in) - Rhino standing in will never benefit from cover.

   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

In agreement with above, cover isn't a blanket thing. You have to look at a terrain piece's datasheet and see what it says. Ruins say that INFANTRY get cover if on the terrain, while others get cover if on terrain and 50% obscured.
Craters don't say that at all, and you can't apply a Ruin's rules to a Crater model.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
 
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