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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

If a Tau Commander is in a Manta hold (in reserves), can he declare a Master of War ability? He would then arrive at the end of that turn's Movement phase and measure the aura distance correctly.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in ar
Fresh-Faced New User





no he cant, he need to be at the start of the movement phase to do so, if he is in reserve, will be arriving at the end of such phase
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

Can you give some rules support for that? Sitting in a spaceship does not prevent individuals from making declarations.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in ar
Fresh-Faced New User





i'm Using the Transport´s embarked Rule as reference, pag 183
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger





Your Commander is technically not set up on the board while they are in orbit, so are unable to shoot, move or perform any actions until they are on the table. I can't see anything that directly says you can't activate an ability, but I'd interpret it as them not being in play.

(Reinforcements pg177 has some basic info)
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

The Commander isn't in a transport, so those rules are not applicable. And the only time you need to measure for this ability is in the shooting phase, and the Commander will be on the board.

Making a declaration (which is what you do for the Master of War ability) doesn't seem to have any restrictions on it when off the table.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The Commander isn't in a transport, so those rules are not applicable. And the only time you need to measure for this ability is in the shooting phase, and the Commander will be on the board.

Making a declaration (which is what you do for the Master of War ability) doesn't seem to have any restrictions on it when off the table.
Neither does shooting my Scourges Dark Lances when they are off the table.
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Neither does shooting my Scourges Dark Lances when they are off the table.

Sure it does. You must check range and visibility with your shooting unit, neither of which can be accomplished when a unit isn't on the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 00:19:04


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
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Made in ar
Fresh-Faced New User





 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The Commander isn't in a transport, so those rules are not applicable. And the only time you need to measure for this ability is in the shooting phase, and the Commander will be on the board.

Making a declaration (which is what you do for the Master of War ability) doesn't seem to have any restrictions on it when off the table.


yes he is, he is on spaceship as you said. But this is not a matter where he is, is about if he can or not use his ability , the issue with this ability is he must used at the start of the movement phase and he will be arriving to the batltlefield at the end of such phase.
so is a simple "no, he cant use this ability"
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

There is no prohibition against using abilities when off the table. The problem a player usually runs into is that you can't measure to a model that's off-table. However, any time measurements need to be taken, he will be on the table. Making a declaration, as per his ability, does not seem to be an issue.
And he is definitely not not a Transport, as defined by 40k game terms. Please use the correct terminology.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
There is no prohibition against using abilities when off the table.

Nor is there a specific permission. It's unclear and needs a FAQ.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

 Ghaz wrote:
 Elric Greywolf wrote:
There is no prohibition against using abilities when off the table.

Nor is there a specific permission. It's unclear and needs a FAQ.


And I would say that there IS specific permission for the Tau commander, in his rule:
"Once per battle, at the beginning of your turn, a single friendly COMMANDER can declare either Kauyon or Mont'ka."

He's sitting in a spaceship, in reserves, and declares over the comms: "Kauyon, my brothers." Then he slams to earth.

But I'd agree a FAQ would be nice.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No. There is no specific permission granted for the model to do anything while off the table (i.e., it says it can be used 'while off the table').

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 Ghaz wrote:
No. There is no specific permission granted for the model to do anything while off the table (i.e., it says it can be used 'while off the table').


The general start when dealing with a rules system like GW is the Golden Rule: The rules give you permission to do something, otherwise you are not allowed to do it.

The rules for movement, shooting, etc. allow a unit to move and shoot, obviously. It takes explicit and specific rules that disallow movement and shooting for the default rules allowing such actions to be negated.

The T'au Commander's ability is something you are granted permission to perform by the rules, and so you have a default permissibility. To show that the ability to perform is overridden and negated, you would again need to show explicit and specific rules that disallow the use of that ability.

For moving and shooting, as has been explained, there are specific and explicit disallowances or impracticabilities (you either can't move because you aren't placed anywhere where you can move to, or you can't shoot because you can't measure range or LoS).

The problem, if it is one, is that the T'au Commander's ability is not called out as unusable, and under OP's interpretation of the text, it wouldn't be impractical to perform (since the benefit is checked later, when the model will be on the table).

I'm still not convinced the RAI is towards allowing the ability to be used, but the RAI argument IMO isn't totally bogus, and the rules don't seem to have the explicit denial we'd need to definitively deny its use.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

There is no permission granted to do anything while not 'on the board'. Therefore your argument falls into the "it doesn't say that I can't, so I can" category.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Charging Bull






 Ghaz wrote:
There is no permission granted to do anything while not 'on the board'. Therefore your argument falls into the "it doesn't say that I can't, so I can" category.


There is permission given, in the Kowyawn rule itself, to use the ability that does not mention any special restrictions on where the ability can be used, only when it can be used and when to check what models are in range in order to benefit. There is also no restrictions in the general rule set on using abilities while off he board. So you have permission to use the ability, and also no restrictions on the use of said ability.

So its more of a "Its says I can, so I can" category.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 16:49:39


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No, it does not say anything about being used while 'off the board' otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Cincinnati

Under reinforcements sidebar: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn that they arrive - their entire Movement Phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc) for the rest of their turn."

Clearly they cannot use the ability. They included a special clause that covers the entire movement phase abilities and all, not just movement. RAI is incredibly clear. Lawyers may be able to try to argue RAW, but I think that it is pretty clear in both cases.
   
Made in us
Charging Bull






Suks wrote:
Under reinforcements sidebar: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn that they arrive - their entire Movement Phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc) for the rest of their turn."

Clearly they cannot use the ability. They included a special clause that covers the entire movement phase abilities and all, not just movement. RAI is incredibly clear. Lawyers may be able to try to argue RAW, but I think that it is pretty clear in both cases.


I actually like this catch, good job. So uses the ENTIRE movement phase is good enough for me to disallow its use because it would require some fraction of the movement phase in order to be able to use the ability.

I will say that if the word "entire" wasn't used and instead it said "counts as moving", then you could use the ability. Because moving isn't the only thing you do in the movement phase. You use abilities etc.

The rule gives permission to use the ability regardless of where you model is currently counted as being, but since using another ability (manta strike, or whatever the full name is) uses up the ENTIRE movement phase, there is room left to use any other movement, or abilities that happen in the movement phase.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Forcast wrote:
The rule gives permission to use the ability regardless of where you model is currently counted as being..

False. You're making an assumption, otherwise you would have specific wording to support models being able touse its abilities while 'off the board'.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

 Ghaz wrote:
False. You're making an assumption, otherwise you would have specific wording to support models being able touse its abilities while 'off the board'.

If the rules for an ability allow it to be used without any kind of range/visibility, then there is nothing preventing the model from doing so even when set up off the table. The permission is the ability rules text itself. If GW wanted abilities in every case to not be usable off the table, then they would have needed to write that when a model is dead and/or off the table its abilities cannot affect models on the table (or vice-versa).

But regardless of semantics, let's be real here people (to the OP): If you say that a model can use an ability when off the table, then that same argument allows the model to use the ability even when its been killed, which is obviously ridiculous. GW obviously didn't want to clutter up their rules adding caveats about abilities only being able to be used when on the table, so there are going to be issues for abilities like this one that don't have a range/require visibility to a target.

Its probably worth asking GW in a FAQ to put it to bed and make sure that's how they intended it, though.




I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

 yakface wrote:
If you say that a model can use an ability when off the table, then that same argument allows the model to use the ability even when its been killed, which is obviously ridiculous. GW obviously didn't want to clutter up their rules adding caveats about abilities only being able to be used when on the table, so there are going to be issues for abilities like this one that don't have a range/require visibility to a target.


I agree with the need for a FAQ, and have stuck it in the list.
However, I do NOT agree with the slippery slope argument here. It makes no sense whatsoever for a dead Commander to do anything. GW has introduced both fluff and common sense into the ruleset with their <LEGION/REGIMENT/CHAPTER> keyword ruling. It makes common sense and fluffy sense that a Commander in orbit, before making planetfall, could tell units under his control to prepare for a specific tactical maneuver.
Sometimes dead models do things, and they have rules that tell us when to do these things--Noise Marines system feedback, some giant bug's death throes, etc. But I wouldn't group these two cases together--off table vs dead--because of the common sense element 8e has introduced.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
 
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