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IMHO the answer to the following is that it is yes, RaW. Still thought I would ask it here to be debated in classic Dakkadakka fashion.

When rolling to hit for overwatch, do modifiers still apply and cause additional effects to happen if they cause the dice roll to actually be that result, despite not mattering for determining whether it hit or not?

For example, an Extremely Loyal And Not In Any Way Traitorous Space Marine In Suspicious Black Armour who has a Combi-Plasma is charged by, I dunno, a Gretchin. He decides to be Extremely Loyal and fire both the Bolter profile and the Supercharge Plasma profile in overwatch. Now, let's say he rolls a 2 to hit for a Plasma shot. The rules for overwatch say it "uses all the normal rules" for shooting "except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." Nowhere does it say those modifiers don't still apply. Thus, the rules for the Combi-Plasma kick in, giving the hit roll a -1, thus causing a roll of 1 to hit to cause the model to be slain. (The above example also works with a regular Plasma and something with a permanent -1 to hit like a MV5 Stealth Drone).

Likewise, if some bonus somehow gave a +1 to hit to Lord Kaldor "We shall provide the hams" Draigo (I couldn't find such an effect, yet, and there may be some come new codexes for all we know) and he decides to use a Psyk-out grenade for overwatch against, say, Magnus the Red, gets 1 attack on the D3 and then rolls a 5 to hit. The rule for the grenade says "Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for this weapon when targeting a Psyker or Daemon, the target suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage." Since he has a +1 to hit, he has a final roll of 6, even though the rules for overwatch say that it misses, the rules for the grenade itself don't care if the hit actually hits or not, just that a 6+ was rolled, thus it would cause a mortal wound.

On a more specific note, the Necron Tesla weapons have the ability "Each hit roll of 6+ with this weapon causes 3 hits instead of 1." Once again this doesn't actually care if the shot hits, only that a 6+ was rolled. When combined with an Overlords +1 to hit aura, does rolling a 5+ when firing overwatch cause 3 hits on the enemy unit, even though it's normally a miss because of the overwatch rules.

the only diferenceses between an "overwatch shoot" and shoot in the shooting phase, is that you need to roll a 6 for the overwatch, and some weapons CANT do overwatch (spore mine launcher).

the rest of the weapons rules, are applied normaly, except for modifires to the roll of 6

There are certain effects that go off based on if it applies to modifiers or does not apply to modifiers.

Things like Overwatch, only hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers.

Rerolling failed to-hits are always rerolled before modifiers, so if you hit on a 3, but something gives your shot -1, then you do not reroll the 3s even though they fail.

Now, as per rule of Overwatch, you only hit on 6, otherwise you miss. Even still, a roll of a natural 6 is always a hit and a natural 1 is always a miss, iirc.

teknoskan wrote:
Now, as per rule of Overwatch, you only hit on 6, otherwise you miss. Even still, a roll of a natural 6 is always a hit and a natural 1 is always a miss, iirc.

A roll of a 6 is not always a hit (even though it does always hit in regards to Overwatch).

If the Tesla rule said that "hit rolls of 6+ cause 2 additional hits", then I think it would be clear that you could roll a 5 on Overwatch with a +1 modifier and then get 2 hits.

Where I find Tesla unclear is that you get 3 hits "instead of 1". I'm not sure if this means that you only get the 3 hits if you would otherwise have gotten 1 hit.

We had this discussion a few weeks ago and I had touched on this but we didn't really go down this rabbit hole.

We basically left it with "discuss with your opponent pregame".

We have only 2 choices:
1) Only a 6 on the dice hits, and modifiers ate meaningless(so only a 1 on the dice will overheat)
2) Only a 6 on the dice hit, but modifiers are taken into account for weapon abilities(on a -1 to hit you could overheat on a roll of 2, and with certain weapons under a +1 you can "miss" on a 5 but still get multiple hits from weapon abilities)

The only thing that throws some mud at option 2 under +to hit is that most of those weapons have the "instead of 1 hit" verbiage; but then the faq has already stated that "instead" does not require the conditions of the "instead"

The last sentence of the Overwatch rules paragraph gives you your answer.

Edit: oh this is rules lawyering deeper, my bad...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We had this discussion a few weeks ago and I had touched on this but we didn't really go down this rabbit hole.

We basically left it with "discuss with your opponent pregame".

We have only 2 choices:
1) Only a 6 on the dice hits, and modifiers ate meaningless(so only a 1 on the dice will overheat)
2) Only a 6 on the dice hit, but modifiers are taken into account for weapon abilities(on a -1 to hit you could overheat on a roll of 2, and with certain weapons under a +1 you can "miss" on a 5 but still get multiple hits from weapon abilities)

The only thing that throws some mud at option 2 under +to hit is that most of those weapons have the "instead of 1 hit" verbiage; but then the faq has already stated that "instead" does not require the conditions of the "instead"

Exactly, something can happen "instead" of another thing that doesn't have a chance of happening, such as using smoke launches instead of shooting when you advanced. I will agree that however if you decide to house rule it you should rule it equal in both ways.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The last sentence of the Overwatch rules paragraph gives you your answer.

Edit: oh this is rules lawyering deeper, my bad...

I will never understand why some people consider "following the rules" to be rules lawyering.

This would all have been cleared up if GW had just bothered to define what a "natural" roll meant and used them for overheats and overwatch. Oh well.

I'd argue that a "roll of x" would be the natural roll.

A "hit roll of x" could be argued to be the result of the "hit roll" itself, not the natural roll of the die.

And the weapons with the 6+ additional effect are "hit roll of 6+".

Plasma overheat is "hit roll of 1".

So, not sure what you are arguing.

There is literally no question here.

It's processed as per a Shooting attack except for success you need 6+ to hit discounting modifiers. Nothing states you discount the modifiers for other purposes. If it's a Shooting attack and if your roll or modifiers would blow you up, they blow you up. If something extra happens on 6+, whoop-de-doo! Same as for Rending Claws in close combat needing a 6+ to wound some things gaining extra AP each time they wound, or Shuriken catapults needing 6+ to wound tough stuff, and conveniently doing -4 AP whenever they do wound. Don't overthink it.

That's why I say rules lawyering. You're trying to bend the situationally-specific success condition to avoid the regular failure condition. That is not a thing.

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'd argue that a "roll of x" would be the natural roll.

A "hit roll of x" could be argued to be the result of the "hit roll" itself, not the natural roll of the die.

Except that's not what the rules say, and it's been confirmed that negative modifiers cause plasma to overheat and stops Striking Scorpion Exarchs, so it HAS to work in the other direction too.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There is literally no question here.

It's processed as per a Shooting attack except for success you need 6+ to hit discounting modifiers. Nothing states you discount the modifiers for other purposes. If it's a Shooting attack and if your roll or modifiers would blow you up, they blow you up. If something extra happens on 6+, whoop-de-doo! Same as for Rending Claws in close combat needing a 6+ to wound some things gaining extra AP each time they wound, or Shuriken catapults needing 6+ to wound tough stuff, and conveniently doing -4 AP whenever they do wound. Don't overthink it.

That's why I say rules lawyering. You're trying to bend the situationally-specific success condition to avoid the regular failure condition. That is not a thing.

My question is if others agree that this is what the rules say. I am not trying to bend anything, I am trying to make sure I understand the rules properly. It's pretty important to know if my plasma or my enemies plasma is going to overheat on a 1 or a 1 and 2 during overwatch.

To me you would only blow up with your supercharged plasma gun on Overwatch if you roll a 1 on the die. If there is a -1 BS modifier, and you roll a 2, no blow up. If positive modifiers, like +1 BS, dont apply, why should negative modifiers apply ?

p5freak wrote:
To me you would only blow up with your supercharged plasma gun on Overwatch if you roll a 1 on the die. If there is a -1 BS modifier, and you roll a 2, no blow up. If positive modifiers, like +1 BS, dont apply, why should negative modifiers apply ?

The point is, they do apply, they just don't affect whether you hit or not. This is what the rules say.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

p5freak wrote:
To me you would only blow up with your supercharged plasma gun on Overwatch if you roll a 1 on the die. If there is a -1 BS modifier, and you roll a 2, no blow up. If positive modifiers, like +1 BS, dont apply, why should negative modifiers apply ?

The point is, they do apply, they just don't affect whether you hit or not. This is what the rules say.

BCB is correct, as is Johnny Hell. Overwatch rolls to shoot as normal, but only a natural 6 hits. All other rules and modifiers apply when determining if some other thing happened.

For instance--let's say you do 2 additional wounds on a roll of 6. You overwatch and roll a 5, and for whatever reason you also have a +1 modifier.

You still do no wounds, because you didn't do the original wound (requiring a natural 6).

I've been thinking lately that when firing overwatch, isn't 1-5 a miss, which would activate the "reroll all misses" rule?

 3orangewhips wrote:
You still do no wounds, because you didn't do the original wound (requiring a natural 6).

On this, I disagree. We have several examples of things happening "instead" of something else even if the original can't happen or doesn't exist. Smoke Launchers "instead" of shooting are the classic example, because you can use them even if you advance or otherwise can't shoot.

Thats just stupid. If positive modifiers dont help hitting, negative shouldnt make it worse either.
Orks with BS5+ and -2 modifier cannot hit under normal circumstances, but they can on overwatch ? Thats very stupid, very illogical.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And the weapons with the 6+ additional effect are "hit roll of 6+".

Plasma overheat is "hit roll of 1".

So, not sure what you are arguing.

I was describing the two ways to read it. I prefer the former, I can see the later.

BaconCatBug wrote:Except that's not what the rules say, and it's been confirmed that negative modifiers cause plasma to overheat and stops Striking Scorpion Exarchs, so it HAS to work in the other direction too.

Your argument is sound, though I think it's absurd that a Heavy Plasma weapon doubles its chance of overheating just for moving. This argument means that all rules that depend on certain role extreme can happen almost twice as much as usual. But if that is what GW wants so be it. Prepare for the 6+ cheese everyone.

EDIT: Is there a rule that says a hit roll result can't be less than one? If so, rolling a 1 on a Heavy Plasma weapon that moved would not overheat, so that's not as bad.

 Tarrasq wrote:
EDIT: Is there a rule that says a hit roll result can't be less than one? If so, rolling a 1 on a Heavy Plasma weapon that moved would not overheat, so that's not as bad.

It was stated in the designers commentary FAQ: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
EDIT: Is there a rule that says a hit roll result can't be less than one? If so, rolling a 1 on a Heavy Plasma weapon that moved would not overheat, so that's not as bad.

It was stated in the designers commentary FAQ: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Yep so much for hope

Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers? A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first."

Pretty much answers any doubts I had before, and yes overwatch is a shooting attack with a single exception, so all rules that apply to shooting attacks, and don't account for the exception, apply.

p5freak wrote:
Thats just stupid. If positive modifiers dont help hitting, negative shouldnt make it worse either.
Orks with BS5+ and -2 modifier cannot hit under normal circumstances, but they can on overwatch ? Thats very stupid, very illogical.

I can't make any sense of this.

In Overwatch, neither positive nor negative modifiers matter for determining whether you hit. Space Marines with a +1 modifier hit only on a natural 6. Orks with a -2 modifier still hit on a natural 6.

In Overwatch, as with all other shooting attacks, both positive and negative modifiers matter for everything else. If you fire overcharged plasma on Overwatch while benefiting from a net +1 hit modifier, you simply can't get hot. If you have a net -1 modifier, you can get hot on a natural 1 or 2.

Dionysodorus wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Thats just stupid. If positive modifiers dont help hitting, negative shouldnt make it worse either.
Orks with BS5+ and -2 modifier cannot hit under normal circumstances, but they can on overwatch ? Thats very stupid, very illogical.

I can't make any sense of this.

In Overwatch, neither positive nor negative modifiers matter for determining whether you hit. Space Marines with a +1 modifier hit only on a natural 6. Orks with a -2 modifier still hit on a natural 6.

If its a normal shooting attack in the shooting phase Orks cannot hit at BS5+ with a -2 modifier, but they suddenly can in the fight phase when they overwatch, with the same -2 modifier. Makes no sense.

The disconnect comes from the fact that any unit hits on a flat 6 in overwatch, regardless of BS (and modifiers). That's the real problem and the reason why dots can't be connected. A flat 6 does not make sense and throws any downstream logic out the window.

A BS 2+ trained assassin is just as likely to hit something charging it as an ork boy. That makes no sense. And suddenly the smoke that grants -1 to hit, is just gone and doesn't obscure your vision making target harder to hit.

EDIT: toning down my own language

YMDC isn't really about making "sense" of the rules. Some rules are just rules. YMDC is about figuring out how to follow the rules, or in some cases finding a workable and fair solution when the rules are broken.

It's a funny visual image that the Assassin and the Boyz hit the same in OW...but it has zero bearing on rules, especially since the rules are simple and clear.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Now, let's say he rolls a 2 to hit for a Plasma shot. The rules for overwatch say it "uses all the normal rules" for shooting "except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." Nowhere does it say those modifiers don't still apply. Thus, the rules for the Combi-Plasma kick in, giving the hit roll a -1, thus causing a roll of 1 to hit to cause the model to be slain.

I do think that even though modifiers don't apply to 6 to hit, the effects of a modifier should still be applied.

However, I don't think the above example of a Combi-Plasma getting a -1 on a roll of 2 would result in a hit. The roll is a 2, the modified number is a 1. The rule says

"a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll"

and since a 2 or 1 is not a 6, and since a 6 is always required, the perk of hitting on a 1 wouldn't apply and count as a hit in Overwatch.

 alienux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Now, let's say he rolls a 2 to hit for a Plasma shot. The rules for overwatch say it "uses all the normal rules" for shooting "except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." Nowhere does it say those modifiers don't still apply. Thus, the rules for the Combi-Plasma kick in, giving the hit roll a -1, thus causing a roll of 1 to hit to cause the model to be slain.

I do think that even though modifiers don't apply to 6 to hit, the effects of a modifier should still be applied.

However, I don't think the above example of a Combi-Plasma getting a -1 on a roll of 2 would result in a hit. The roll is a 2, the modified number is a 1. The rule says

"a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll"

and since a 2 or 1 is not a 6, and since a 6 is always required, the perk of hitting on a 1 wouldn't apply and count as a hit in Overwatch.

Not really sure what you're talking about. A 1 with supercharged plasma isn't a hit, it's a hit roll that results in a slain model. 1s are never hits to begin with.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 alienux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Now, let's say he rolls a 2 to hit for a Plasma shot. The rules for overwatch say it "uses all the normal rules" for shooting "except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." Nowhere does it say those modifiers don't still apply. Thus, the rules for the Combi-Plasma kick in, giving the hit roll a -1, thus causing a roll of 1 to hit to cause the model to be slain.

I do think that even though modifiers don't apply to 6 to hit, the effects of a modifier should still be applied.

However, I don't think the above example of a Combi-Plasma getting a -1 on a roll of 2 would result in a hit. The roll is a 2, the modified number is a 1. The rule says

"a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll"

and since a 2 or 1 is not a 6, and since a 6 is always required, the perk of hitting on a 1 wouldn't apply and count as a hit in Overwatch.

Not really sure what you're talking about. A 1 with supercharged plasma isn't a hit, it's a hit roll that results in a slain model. 1s are never hits to begin with.

Ahh, gotcha. I misunderstood the effect. Thanks for the clarification.

To further clarify: the slain model is the model that was firing the supercharged plasma that rolled a 1 to hit(after modifiers) not an effect of a slain target.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to poo on our parade a little bit from designer's comentary page 1, last entry(on my phone cannot copy paste, if someone would screen-shot: prece): jist is if a 6 irrespecrive of modifiers is required; modifiers mean nothing(ran into this qhile researching for another thread), this is in the RAI italics(aka the "don't be a Dick" rules).

So while you can still lose a plasma gunner supercharging on a 2 with a -1 to hit; a tesla under a +1 will not cause any hits(let alone 3)on a 5.