Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There have been a lot of conscript related threads recently so I thought I'd help out by making another one. I've seen a few workable solutions mentioned:

1) Conscripts become 4pts each (and possibly commanders or commissars could get a point increase too if deemed fair)
2) Conscripts can't take orders (or require a 4+ to pass orders or similar)
3) Commissars 'summary execution' rule doesn't work as well with conscripts (say it halves the number of casualties taken, or they lose D6 casualties instead of just the 1)
4) 1 Conscript squad can only be taken per two infantry squads in your army (or some similar army-structure approach to limiting them)
5) Conscript squad size lowered (say to 20 models or 30 models)
6) Lower their armour save to 6+

If anyone has any more bright ideas I'll add them to the poll. If they're not too stupid that is. I personally think they should be nerfed a bit to preserve game balance, and I'm not too bothered how they do it cos it won't stop me fielding 200+ guardsmen in a list!

I'm mainly interested in the results of the poll so feel free to turn it into another massive rage thread

#2 and 3 Appeals to me the most as it would make sense that conscripts are harder to command than a well trained army.

According to the calculations in the conscript thread, Orders are the only reason they're really good.

My thoughts on everything else:
1) At 4ppm, you either have to bump Guard squads up, and therefore half the army (heavy weapon squads, special weapon squads, veterans, scions, etc). or else you will never see conscripts, since they'd be exactly the same price for -1 WS, -1BS, -3 LD statline

2) Orders are what make conscripts too good, as proven with mathhammer in the other thread.

3) This is a nerf to the durability of conscripts, and that's their entire purpose. If you remove their durability, you remove them from the game, since it's certainly not their firepower that people bring them for.

4) This is fine too, I suppose, though I have a feeling the platoon structure was eliminated to help Guard get more CPs, since they're always going to have a ton of drops.

5) This would be okay too, I guess, but I am not sure it solves the problem. Are 5 30-man units any easier to deal with than 3 50 man units? All this does is make them require more orders, which works, but I'd prefer a direct nerf to orders on Conscripts.

Open and shut, conscripts shouldn't be able to use orders. Easy.

No orders and lowered to 30 strong max. Commissar would be fine with those two changes.

Remove their armor or make it 6+.

I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely. As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.

So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.

No orders or highly restricted orders would probably be enough. If something else is needed, drop max squad size to 30. You could drop them to 6+ armor, but I'm not sure that's especially necessary.

By making Termagaunts 3 points base, Grots 2 points base, and Cultists 4 points base.

Remove their armor altogether.

Anything that costs 4ppm or less per model should not get an armor save, period, unless you add in wargear.

 Marmatag wrote:
Remove their armor altogether.

Anything that costs 4ppm or less per model should not get an armor save, period, unless you add in wargear.

Brimstone Horrors get an armour save and are 2pt each. And since their technically a pair, it's 1ppm

Lower squad size to 30, 6+ save, no orders.

It's their ability to ignore morale that makes them a problem to me: in order to deal with the unit I need to put everything I have into it to remove the squad because if I don't my opponent will still have enough to shield his tanks from another round of combat, and when combat is your armies only real string to it's bow it makes it nigh impossible to beat Imperial Guard. Another problem with putting everything I have into the unit is that I end up with all of my units disembarked ready to be gunned down by my opponent.

Though I did think it was quite funny the last time I played conscript spam: 20 Zerkers managed to slaughter a 50 man unit of conscripts down to a single model (I rolled rather poorly) but have no fear! Before that single conscript could run off for safety, the helpful Commissar shot him in the back of the head! +1VP for me!

The problem with that is... they're just doing their job there. If conscripts could be trivially swept aside and offered negligible protection against assault, well what would there be for an IG player to do? Just show up, ask if your army is capable of turn-1 assault, then pack up their stuff and go home if the answer is "yes"?

No orders. It makes sense fluffwise and it also correctly applies a fix to their crunch.

Never had problems with conscripts so won't weigh in.

Change point cost to 2 points per model. Problem solved.

 ross-128 wrote:
The problem with that is... they're just doing their job there. If conscripts could be trivially swept aside and offered negligible protection against assault, well what would there be for an IG player to do? Just show up, ask if your army is capable of turn-1 assault, then pack up their stuff and go home if the answer is "yes"?

They would still absorb 1 round of assault and mean their tanks won't wind up in combat until the end of turn two. What I don't like now is that conscripts either absorb multiple rounds of combat because they don't die from morale or you throw everything you have at them and end up with all of your squishy units sat like ducks in the middle of the battle field after killing what is basically glorified bubble wrap.

Last game I had I through everything I had into whiping out his bubble wrap but when it came back round to my turn I was down a knight and left with only 2 Zerkers. He didn't even have to move any of his models, just sit back and mulch over 1000pts of models. (The other 800 odd points got whiped by two Vendettas but Vendettas are a discussion for a different day...)

Commissar
During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model in a unit to reduce the morale test by d6


10 man squads
Ld7 Veterans lose 5 men, they will now have a 50% chance of losing 2 guys, 33% chance of losing a 3rd, and a solid 16% chance of losing a 4th

with Commissar executing 1, they will now have only an 8% chance of losing the second guy, 2% chance of losing a 3rd. That's it.

 Talamare wrote:
Commissar
During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model in a unit to reduce the morale test by d6

That just lets them benefit conscripts and make them useless for 10man squads.

Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.

Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?

If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.

 Elbows wrote:
Open and shut, conscripts shouldn't be able to use orders. Easy.

Which changes nothing when concerned with the Commissars.

You want the "open and shut" version? More sniper options for enemy armies.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Remove their armor altogether.

Anything that costs 4ppm or less per model should not get an armor save, period, unless you add in wargear.

Brimstone Horrors get an armour save and are 2pt each. And since their technically a pair, it's 1ppm

Technically

Brimstone Horrors only have a 6+ Armor Save...
and I doubt anyone would mind if it become a 7+ Armor Save, so his statement stands.

 Talamare wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Remove their armor altogether.

Anything that costs 4ppm or less per model should not get an armor save, period, unless you add in wargear.

Brimstone Horrors get an armour save and are 2pt each. And since their technically a pair, it's 1ppm

Technically

Brimstone Horrors only have a 6+ Armor Save...
and I doubt anyone would mind if it become a 7+ Armor Save, so his statement stands.

I can guarantee you nobody would mind if horrors became a 7+ armor save... because they get a 4+ invuln save, thus their armor save is utterly irrelevant. They're always going to roll their invuln.

 ross-128 wrote:
I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.

They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.

We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.

As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.

No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.

And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.

So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.

You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.

You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.

They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.

We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.

As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.

No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.

And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.

So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.

You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.

You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.

Well I'm of the opinion that conscripts are fine and don't actually need to be changed.

So if something MUST be changed to appease the whiners, I'd prefer to make it as small a change as possible.

 ross-128 wrote:
Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.

Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?

If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.

And if I'm paying 1000pts for dedicated cc units (500pts of Zerkers and 500pts of Knight), I'd definitely want to be able to smash through a 150pt wall of bodies without having to use my entire army. If I wanted to get bogged down in combat for 2 turns with bubble wrap I wouldn't pay premium for the most killy cc unit in the game.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.

They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.

We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.

As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.

No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.

And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.

So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.

You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.

You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.

Well I'm of the opinion that conscripts are fine and don't actually need to be changed.

So if something MUST be changed to appease the whiners, I'd prefer to make it as small a change as possible.

So your suggestion is to bring back the frigging Orders on a Leadership test?

That's your idea of "as small a change as possible"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Commissar
During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model in a unit to reduce the morale test by d6

That just lets them benefit conscripts and make them useless for 10man squads.

I mean it doesn't make them useless to 10 man squads.

Ld7 Veterans lose 5 men, they will now have a 50% chance of losing 2 guys, 33% chance of losing a 3rd, and a solid 16% chance of losing a 4th

with Commissar executing 1, they will now have only an 8% chance of losing the second guy, 2% chance of losing a 3rd. That's it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.

Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?

If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.

And if I'm paying 1000pts for dedicated cc units (500pts of Zerkers and 500pts of Knight), I'd definitely want to be able to smash through a 150pt wall of bodies without having to use my entire army. If I wanted to get bogged down in combat for 2 turns with bubble wrap I wouldn't pay premium for the most killy cc unit in the game.

That doesn't change the fact that they're just doing their job. I'm sorry that you don't get to auto-win against any list that can't beat you in CC.

Because let's face it: the instant you reach cc with that list, you win. If nothing can stop you from reaching cc, then the outcome of the battle is predetermined. Your opponent might as well just concede the moment he sees your list. It'd save a lot of time, sure, but that doesn't sound particularly fun.

The conscripts are there to make sure a game actually happens and some dice get rolled.

Edit:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So your suggestion is to bring back the frigging Orders on a Leadership test?

That's your idea of "as small a change as possible"?

Only for Conscripts, who as you mentioned will always be escorted by a Commissar anyway.

So the rest of the army stays at a 100% pass rate. The Conscripts get bumped down to a 72% pass rate, that you can pay points to raise to 83% or 92%. Until the Commissar dies, at which point the Conscripts were going to quickly become worthless anyway.

So yes, that's small. It's miniscule compared to the "nuke it from orbit" changes that the whiners here are proposing.