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So, I read the Dark imperium and how awkward and disappointed Gulliman felt about his meeting with the emperor. It got me thinking, does Gulliman know that the golden throne is failing, and if he does, will we see plans on how he intends to confront this issue?

I know he has a lot on his plate, but would he really allow the golden throne to fail without doing everything he can to preserve it? What about Cawl, could he offer some insight on how to fix the machine?

I'm really curious to see how and if GW approaches this topic.

What do you all think will happen?

I think he knows about the problems with the Golden Throne. I would expect Roboute would find a way to fix it.

If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/

 jhe90 wrote:
If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/

even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications

I would hope that Cawl would look at it and actually not know how to fix something, for once.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would hope that Cawl would look at it and actually not know how to fix something, for once.

Cawl'll look at it, fix it and add a text to speach device.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/

even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications

Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.

They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.

I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.

Granted at this time, given Guilliman's feelings about the Emperor, it is doubtful Guilliman would want the Emperor resurrected either. All his dreams of fatherly love from the Emperor seem to have been shattered, even though he still seems to fight for the dream of a better humanity and better Imperium.

In the end, all Eldar view themselves as the only real people. All other races are treated like animals. Maybe dangerous, amusing or useful animals, but still not as people deserving of the same level of respect or attention. Eldar who for whatever reason are sympathetic to other races could be viewed as animal lovers or activists. They are sympathetic and nice to animals, who are still not people, and if push came to shove, would still side with people (i.e. Eldar) albeit perhaps with some regret. Think of how for example animals are euthanized if they have already hurt people. Most animal lovers would still accept that as a regrettable but necessary move. The Eldar causing such events for other races, in order to preserve their own, could be likened to how today animals are culled in order to prevent the spread of disease. From the perspective of the animals, it is horrific and evil. From the perspective of the humans, it may be a regrettable, unfortunate, cruel but still necessary act.

Part of the reason for their views aside from that of culture, is the biological difference between them and others. They move faster, think faster, and have greater memories than humans (as per Path of the Eldar, they have almost eidetic memories). They live much longer and all have psychic potential (the Dark Eldar have theirs blunted and undeveloped but it is still there as per Valedor). So to their eyes, non-Eldar are short-lived, slow, clumsy and slow-witted. It's hard to strike up a relationship as equals with a human, if that human will grow old, become senile and demented, and die in a tenth or less of your own natural lifespan. Turn around, do your Path thing for a few decades, and come back to find the human already dead. Yes life extension treatments are possible in the Imperium for humans but this is for the elite and powerful, and even then they still age or look "plastic"/unnatural (like Inquisitor Kryptman), while an Eldar can live for a thousand years naturally. A single Eldar can live through many generations humans, so their ability to really form any kind of emotional bond or friendship (as equals) with a human may be limited by the differences in viewpoint due to their lifespan. Imagine trying to form a long term relationship with a pet rat.

Now whether they would form any relationship over time with a naturally long-lived Primarch...Maybe though it would still probably be a wary mutually beneficial relationship of alliance and maybe respect. Respect however does not equate to the same as friendship. Nations can respect each other even as they compete against each other.

The Emperor, as a wise man once said, is a d**k.

 Ratius wrote:
The Emperor, as a wise man once said, is a d**k.

That seems to be Guilliman's view in Dark Imperium now as he has realized that the Emperor's behavior during the Great Crusade was at best an act, one which the Emperor is no longer bothering with (or capable of keeping up). His reaction to Guilliman's return was in Guilliman's own internal thoughts was not that of a father greeting a son but more like that of a caged prisoner finding out a rasp has been handed to him, with Guilliman being the tool.

While the story is likely going to be significantly changed, as it stands in Bill King's story of the fight between Horus and the Emperor the Emperor forces all compassion from himself in order to destroy Horus. Could be that the Emperor did in fact permanently (or at least for a very long time) sever himself from his compassion and is a very different person to who he was.

Its also possible if not likely that the 10,000 years of being imprisoned with agony and unimaginable strain kept going only by an all-you-can-eat psyker buffet may have drained his human side somewhat.

Iracundus wrote:

In the end, all Eldar view themselves as the only real people. All other races are treated like animals.

Nailed it regarding the Eldar.

As a bit of a real-world follow-through of that, one of my (Chaos) Eldar has a mutated human as a familiar

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/

even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications

Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.

They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.

I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.

I think the eldar would like to see chaos defeated but you're right they don't want the IoM too strong.

I see their bringing Gulliman back as a calculated risk,Gulliman gives the IoM a shot in the arm, but at the same time it's needed. still if Gulliman turns out to be TOO effective it could make life harder for the Ynnari, that said, from what little we've seen there DOES seem to be some genuine friendship between Gulliman and Yrvine.

The brutality and ignorance of mankind appalls the Eldar, whilst the aloof arrogance of the Eldar race has never fostered the trust of the Adeptus of Earth.

p. 5, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Guilliman's long life gives him more of a long term perspective on things and his realm of Ultramar is less brutal than most of the rest of the Imperium. He is also more pragmatic and willing to consider cooperation in the name of mutual interests, in contrast to that Deathwatch marine in Death Masque that basically prefers to shoot the Harlequin and have the Imperium go down the tubes by itself rather than prevail over Chaos in cooperation with the alien. While certainly there may have been some Inquisitors and other Imperials that may have been similar in mindset, no other individual has had Primarch level power and influence to steer the Imperium (or at least that part of the Imperium where Guilliman is at any given moment).

The Eldar are pursuing their own interests, sure, but often times these interests do coincide with humanity's, even if they prefer to use humans as the meat shields. I am not arguing the Eldar are "good guys" but it is certainly far more possible for humanity to work with them against all the greater threats in the galaxy. The problem is GW has the Imperium accuse the Eldar of being treacherous when often it is the idiocy of the Imperium that made things worse in the plot. The first Dawn of War is a case in point, but GW has similar plot templates. The Eldar are doing something. The humans interfere. The Eldar tell the humans not to meddle with things as there is Chaos and daemons involved. The humans/Marines don't listen and drive off the Eldar. They meddle with things and release the daemon, then go "Curse you perfidious Eldar! You tricked me!" The Eldar go Is it any wonder the Eldar think humans can't handle the truth?

Absolutely right both of you, but I still think that the repetitive 'Eldar to the rescue' narrative is symptomatic of the gradual 'niceification' of 40k and doesn't really fit with what else we're told about them. Not to mention lazy writing.

Yes manipulating the Imperium to be strong enough to match the Chaos threat is right up their street. I'd stil llike to see some more narrative about the manipulation going the other way though. Just to reinforce the 'Eldar are fickle, do not trust them' thing.

As an example of why I don't think it's possible in the slightest for the Eldar to have a bonafide alliance with the Imperium, here's a list of craftworlds destroyed by each faction:

Craftworlds destroyed by Chaos:
1. Muirgaythh
2. Kher-Ys
3. Ila-Manesh (destroyed by Night Lords)
4. Lu'Nasad

Craftworlds destroyed by the Imperium
1. Idharae
2. Mor-rioh'i
3. Thuyelsa
4. Tuonoetar

So 4 craftworlds apiece destroyed (5 by the hands of humans). The Eldar are categorically not a faction that is prone to 'forgive and forget' when it comes to killing even dozens of Eldar, let alone the millions upon millions of Eldar (not to mention the souls in the Infinity circuit) on a Craftworld.

By that token, the Eldar should hate the Imperium. Hate as only an Eldar with their heightened emotions can hate.

Would you trust their intentions if they came up to you asking politely if you'd like an alliance?

Then in any conflict or issue, one of the sides cannot be Chaos. Whenever it gets to be Chaos, the Eldar will automatically side against it because Chaos poses an existential threat to the Eldar species and their souls. Maybe it couldn't be Necrons either given their history. In any such conflicts, the Eldar would almost be invariably be cast in the role of the saviors or helping the Imperium (or whoever else is fighting Chaos/Necrons).

If instead it were a conflict between other forces, then you can have the Eldar be manipulators. Such as for example Imperium vs. Tau. The Eldar might intervene on both sides for their own reasons and because Craftworlds might have differing visions of what would be best for their own particular Craftworld. Iyanden might want the Tau to win in order to remain a strong buffer state against further Tyranid fleets. Eldrad seems to have been personally sympathetic towards the Tau so he might persuade Ulthwe to support the Tau as well. Maybe Biel-tan wants the Tau taken down a peg as yet another upstart usurper empire. Perhaps Alaitoc wants both sides to fight to mutual exhaustion and maintain the status quo. Of course, in the midst of all this, the Dark Eldar might raid in order to harvest slaves.

In such a situation, the Imperium might well call the Eldar treacherous because to the vast majority of humans, with their closed minds, the Eldar factions are meaningless distinctions and the proper response is to shoot them all.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/

even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications

Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.

They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.

I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.

This

How did the quote go again? "Make no mistake human, We do not fight for your Emperor. We fight against Horus."

Iracundus wrote:
Then in any conflict or issue, one of the sides cannot be Chaos. Whenever it gets to be Chaos, the Eldar will automatically side against it because Chaos poses an existential threat to the Eldar species and their souls. Maybe it couldn't be Necrons either given their history. In any such conflicts, the Eldar would almost be invariably be cast in the role of the saviors or helping the Imperium (or whoever else is fighting Chaos/Necrons).

If instead it were a conflict between other forces, then you can have the Eldar be manipulators. Such as for example Imperium vs. Tau. The Eldar might intervene on both sides for their own reasons and because Craftworlds might have differing visions of what would be best for their own particular Craftworld. Iyanden might want the Tau to win in order to remain a strong buffer state against further Tyranid fleets. Eldrad seems to have been personally sympathetic towards the Tau so he might persuade Ulthwe to support the Tau as well. Maybe Biel-tan wants the Tau taken down a peg as yet another upstart usurper empire. Perhaps Alaitoc wants both sides to fight to mutual exhaustion and maintain the status quo. Of course, in the midst of all this, the Dark Eldar might raid in order to harvest slaves.

In such a situation, the Imperium might well call the Eldar treacherous because to the vast majority of humans, with their closed minds, the Eldar factions are meaningless distinctions and the proper response is to shoot them all.

Perhaps, but I don't think it's realistic to have the Eldar automatically siding against Chaos when the Imperium has been every bit as destructive to the Eldar species as Chaos has. Chaos isn't a greater enemy, they're both the same.

I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does. That should be, form the perspective of the Eldar, unforgivable. Yet for some reason they're portrayed as more on the side of the Imperium, which is symptomatic of a rather tedious shift towards 'black and white goodies and baddies' rather than the shades of grey that 40k should be like. How accurate that perceived shift actually is I'm not sure...

Enough general whinging from me though

Ruin wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.

They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.

I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.

This

How did the quote go again? "Make no mistake human, We do not fight for your Emperor. We fight against Horus."

Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. - Imperial Commander Abriel Hume

The Imperium is the lesser enemy for the Eldar than Chaos. Slaaneshi forces and daemons actively hunt down Eldar spirit stones in order to devour them and the souls within them. By contrast, the Imperium's armed forces are ignorant about the significance of the spirit stones. The Eldar can recover the souls of their dead or from shattered derelict ships or even craftworlds. They cannot do such a thing when against Slaaneshi forces.

The Eldar view humans the way humans view Orks. Crude, brutish, dangerous, ignorant. However Chaos and especially Slaanesh for the Eldar is malevolent and knows all too much. Chaos mortal forces might potentially be ignorant, but any Slaaneshi daemons would not.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does. That should be, form the perspective of the Eldar, unforgivable. Yet for some reason they're portrayed as more on the side of the Imperium, which is symptomatic of a rather tedious shift towards 'black and white goodies and baddies' rather than the shades of grey that 40k should be like. How accurate that perceived shift actually is I'm not sure...

Fluff has always fluctuated over the years. The WD127 through to the 2nd edition codex probably represented the peak of perceiving the Eldar as "nice". Their portrayal since then has varied depending on the author and the stance of the studio at the time but has always made clear that the Eldar are ultimately serving their own agenda. Sometimes this may coincidentally involve helping humanity but I don't think any of them like it.

If they thought resurrecting the Emperor would help them, perhaps they would try but could they actually do it? It has been hinted in the fluff before that simply unplugging the Golden Throne and letting the Emperor die would free his soul from the schackles of his corpse and allow him to reincarnate. The big problem is that this would have dire consequences for the Imperium. Firstly the Astronomicon would go out which is the only thing holding the Imperium together. Secondly the Adeptus Astra Telepathica would cease to exist without the soul-binding that allows them to send and receive messages through the Warp without accidentally downloading a daemon the next time they try to open a psychic email. Lastly, Daemons would flood Terra itself through the Webway portal that Magnus wrecked. So the rebirth of the Emperor would effectively destroy the Imperium as it would wreck its ability to communicate and travel. Also Terra would likely become a daemon-world which could possibly also threaten the safety of Mars, the heart of the Imperium's industry.

Unfortunately, while it is personally unpleasant, the Emperor is exactly where he needs to be most. He is holding back the breach in the dyke and if he moves, Chaos will flood in and destroy everything. Even if he reincarnated, what could he effectively do to restore the Imperium? The Great Crusade was the culmination of millennia of preparations, he would have to start again from scratch and some of what he did could possibly never be replicated. It is hinted that he bargained/stole power from the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs (although the Daemon who implied this to Argel Tal is probably not the most reliable source).

Guilliman is holding the Imperium together but I don't think that even he believes things will get better. It is just not in his nature to give up an accept the extinction of his species. The only hope for the future is the extremely long-term possibility that humanity may be able to achieve its evolution into a psychically-mature race. This was always the long-term back story between the Emperor and Chaos. It is possible that some of the individuals in the HH novels such as Malcador and the Perpetuals are early examples of what humans could become. Psychically powerful and and at little risk from daemons. However the fact that such individuals seem to have vanished by the 41st millennium suggests that this early flowering of psychic humans were killed off by the frost of the Horus Heresy.

There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.

This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea

Iracundus wrote:
The Imperium is the lesser enemy for the Eldar than Chaos. Slaaneshi forces and daemons actively hunt down Eldar spirit stones in order to devour them and the souls within them. By contrast, the Imperium's armed forces are ignorant about the significance of the spirit stones. The Eldar can recover the souls of their dead or from shattered derelict ships or even craftworlds. They cannot do such a thing when against Slaaneshi forces.

The Eldar view humans the way humans view Orks. Crude, brutish, dangerous, ignorant. However Chaos and especially Slaanesh for the Eldar is malevolent and knows all too much. Chaos mortal forces might potentially be ignorant, but any Slaaneshi daemons would not.

True, although the point I was more trying to make is that the Eldar are categorically not the allies of the Imperium. They hate the Imperium. It's just convenient to them to play at being allies so they can smash the Imperium into the face of Chaos and stave off their own deaths a little longer.

Iracundus wrote:
There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.

This.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea

Or:

Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Radicals wait...
...
Radicals wait...
...
...
Any moment now...
...
...
...
Sh*t...
...

It's been said that the primarchs all got a part of the Emp's powers and a trait of his personality... if Vulkhan is a perpetual wouldn't that automatically mean that the Emp is as well?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea

Except the codex was a good idea so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea

Except the codex was a good idea so...

people love to bash on the Codex but you need to ask, what would have happened if Huron had been, instead of Master of the Astral Claws CHAPTER, Master of the Ultramarines LEGION?

I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Neither GW nor any in-universe characters could allow the Astronomican to fail. That includes the Emperor and the throne, I can't imagine that GW would change this aspect of the Imperium.

I think time has changed the Emperor. He's spent thousands of years with all his sons either evil, missing or dead. He's spent that time watching the souls of his people burned to keep him alive. He's watched himself be turned into everything he hates, and he can't alter much because every option he has is worse. If he does die, his Perpetual nature will likely bring him back...but there will be a delay. Terra may well fall, and his corpse fall into the hands of Chaos itself. I suspect the Big Four would like a word while he's weak for that whole 'being made to run like choir boys from a rampant priest' when the Emperor snuffed Horus.

What;s left on the Golden Throne probably has very little left of whatever made the Emperor human, and even less since Rowboat got himself frozen. I haven't read the story, so take this with a massive dollop of salt, but poor Rowboat may had the same realization that many kids have after going back home after a long spell - that dear old Dad has lost his marbles and is probably a danger to himself and others now.

Equally, he might not be trying to fix the Throne for two reasons - one, he doesn't want to prolong the Emperor's suffering any more than anyone else wants to see an aged parent continue to suffer in there dotage (but equally can't pull the plug himself) and, secondly, he probably thinks enough of himself that he can deal with things once the Throne fails. He's a pretty arrogant guy, after all.

As for the Eldar...I think they would bring back the Emperor, but with three conditions.

1 - He isn't insane to a point where he'll be worse than Chaos.
2 - He can destroy Chaos and still be kept in check with problems such as the Orcs and Tyranids. They likely can barely afford a Primarch whose busy with Chaos eyeing up there resources.
3 - It won't destroy the Imperium in a way that would be bad for the Eldar. As much as they don't like the Mon-Keighs, they act as a buffer against every other threat out there. A slow implosion the Eldar can take advantage of - great. An instant shattering, on the other hand...