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Suggested flamer statline:
Assault 8" 3+d6 S4 AP0 D1 Special Rules: Automatically hits target. Targeted unit does not benefit from cover.

Thoughts?

All for it!

Would be great since ork flamers are D3. More than triples them.

You have access to flamers? Must be nice...

In all seriousness though, the one army that can spam flamers en mass, are sisters. And they rank at either #1 or #2 of every teir/comp meta list that's out there so far.

They auto hit. Making it 3+ D6 now makes them even more scary. No ones charging wraithguard with the flamers anyway. No ones charging any flamer squad.

They're fine as is.

 Klowny wrote:
You have access to flamers? Must be nice...

In all seriousness though, the one army that can spam flamers en mass, are sisters. And they rank at either #1 or #2 of every teir/comp meta list that's out there so far.

They auto hit. Making it 3+ D6 now makes them even more scary. No ones charging wraithguard with the flamers anyway. No ones charging any flamer squad.

They're fine as is.

Are you saying that Sisters are winning by spamming flamers? I doubt that, because flamers are terrible right now: they went up in price and down in lethality. I could be wrong of course, because I don't keep track of Sisters Tactica.

It is easy enough for an opponent to make sure to charge from beyond the 8" range if they are that worried about overwatch from a randumb S4 ap0 weapon.

Whatever the statline of flamers, good or bad, the points should reflect that. As it stands, flamers need to go down in points or up in lethality.

Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

CplPunishment wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
You have access to flamers? Must be nice...

In all seriousness though, the one army that can spam flamers en mass, are sisters. And they rank at either #1 or #2 of every teir/comp meta list that's out there so far.

They auto hit. Making it 3+ D6 now makes them even more scary. No ones charging wraithguard with the flamers anyway. No ones charging any flamer squad.

They're fine as is.

Are you saying that Sisters are winning by spamming flamers? I doubt that, because flamers are terrible right now: they went up in price and down in lethality. I could be wrong of course, because I don't keep track of Sisters Tactica.

It is easy enough for an opponent to make sure to charge from beyond the 8" range if they are that worried about overwatch from a randumb S4 ap0 weapon.

Whatever the statline of flamers, good or bad, the points should reflect that. As it stands, flamers need to go down in points or up in lethality.

So you want a stat increase on basic flamers but no changes to the stronger ones? Or across the board. Because while basic flamers might not be the hotness, the rest are certainly very painful, especially when it's just not 1 or 2 in a squad.

Ever charged wraithguard with d-scythes?

I haven't, I don't want to soak 5x D3 s10 ap-4 auto hitting shots. If basic flamers get 3+D6 hits, it's basically advocating these get D3+1 hits.

No thanks.

And I've never found it 'easy' to make 9"+ charges, maybe that's my bad dice rolling, but it's not statistically likely either.

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

Please explain how they got better. They are more expensive, have a lower potential for shots, don't deny cover, and units that didn't get armor saves against them suddenly do (IG, Orks, Tyranid infantry, etc) By all accounts they are worse.

CplPunishment wrote:


Are you saying that Sisters are winning by spamming flamers? I doubt that, because flamers are terrible right now: they went up in price and down in lethality. I could be wrong of course, because I don't keep track of Sisters Tactica

I can attest that yes I have been spamming flamers and I'm currently 5-2 out of 7 games. Admittedly they aren't winning the entire game for me (that honour goes to ST Celestine and my Seraphim) but they're a massive deterrent especially when you have a Retributor heavy flamer squad jump out of a repressor....

 Klowny wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
You have access to flamers? Must be nice...

In all seriousness though, the one army that can spam flamers en mass, are sisters. And they rank at either #1 or #2 of every teir/comp meta list that's out there so far.

They auto hit. Making it 3+ D6 now makes them even more scary. No ones charging wraithguard with the flamers anyway. No ones charging any flamer squad.

They're fine as is.

Are you saying that Sisters are winning by spamming flamers? I doubt that, because flamers are terrible right now: they went up in price and down in lethality. I could be wrong of course, because I don't keep track of Sisters Tactica.

It is easy enough for an opponent to make sure to charge from beyond the 8" range if they are that worried about overwatch from a randumb S4 ap0 weapon.

Whatever the statline of flamers, good or bad, the points should reflect that. As it stands, flamers need to go down in points or up in lethality.

So you want a stat increase on basic flamers but no changes to the stronger ones? Or across the board. Because while basic flamers might not be the hotness, the rest are certainly very painful, especially when it's just not 1 or 2 in a squad.

Ever charged wraithguard with d-scythes?

I haven't, I don't want to soak 5x D3 s10 ap-4 auto hitting shots. If basic flamers get 3+D6 hits, it's basically advocating these get D3+1 hits.

No thanks.

And I've never found it 'easy' to make 9"+ charges, maybe that's my bad dice rolling, but it's not statistically likely either.

I'm talking about Imperial flamers, not xenos weaponry. The example I provided was a standard flamer, but heavy flamers could use tweaking too.

Yes you are correct that a 9"+ charge is statistically unlikely. (although, they really need to roll an 8 to reach the 1" threshold--that 1" increases the odds a bit, since 7 is the most common roll followed by 6&8) But that's what Command Rerolls are for. Maybe I just have terrible luck on the receiving end of charges, because thus far my flamers have been duds on overwatch. They have done nothing for me, even the few times that they were in range of the charging unit.

They just need to be cheaper.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
You have access to flamers? Must be nice...

In all seriousness though, the one army that can spam flamers en mass, are sisters. And they rank at either #1 or #2 of every teir/comp meta list that's out there so far.

They auto hit. Making it 3+ D6 now makes them even more scary. No ones charging wraithguard with the flamers anyway. No ones charging any flamer squad.

They're fine as is.

Are you saying that Sisters are winning by spamming flamers? I doubt that, because flamers are terrible right now: they went up in price and down in lethality. I could be wrong of course, because I don't keep track of Sisters Tactica.

It is easy enough for an opponent to make sure to charge from beyond the 8" range if they are that worried about overwatch from a randumb S4 ap0 weapon.

Whatever the statline of flamers, good or bad, the points should reflect that. As it stands, flamers need to go down in points or up in lethality.

So you want a stat increase on basic flamers but no changes to the stronger ones? Or across the board. Because while basic flamers might not be the hotness, the rest are certainly very painful, especially when it's just not 1 or 2 in a squad.

Ever charged wraithguard with d-scythes?

I haven't, I don't want to soak 5x D3 s10 ap-4 auto hitting shots. If basic flamers get 3+D6 hits, it's basically advocating these get D3+1 hits.

No thanks.

And I've never found it 'easy' to make 9"+ charges, maybe that's my bad dice rolling, but it's not statistically likely either.

I'm talking about Imperial flamers, not xenos weaponry. The example I provided was a standard flamer, but heavy flamers could use tweaking too.

Yes you are correct that a 9"+ charge is statistically unlikely. (although, they really need to roll an 8 to reach the 1" threshold--that 1" increases the odds a bit, since 7 is the most common roll followed by 6&8) But that's what Command Rerolls are for. Maybe I just have terrible luck on the receiving end of charges, because thus far my flamers have been duds on overwatch. They have done nothing for me, even the few times that they were in range of the charging unit.

Ah okay, I assumed you were talking about flamers overall, not imperium ones.

To be frank there are a lot more things that need serious attention *cough* most xenos factions *cough*. Imperium have most of the toys currently.

Besides orks I cannot think of one xenos faction that can spam flamers, maybe t'au? Otherwise all of us non umies are relegated to one maybe 2 options in our entire index's

 JimOnMars wrote:
Would be great since ork flamers are D3. More than triples them.

You should look more closely at the burna rules to find out why they are like that.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

Please explain how they got better. They are more expensive, have a lower potential for shots, don't deny cover, and units that didn't get armor saves against them suddenly do (IG, Orks, Tyranid infantry, etc) By all accounts they are worse.

d6 shots regardless of number of targets
Full shots when in range of a single target

Flamers suck, they should ignore cover. You cant hide from fire. Instead of 1D6 they should be 2D3, heavy flamers should be 3D3, and have 12" range.

Just make ork flamers D6 instead of D3. People are complaining about flamers in general, imagine if the imperial flamer was only D3 hits like burnas.

No flamers are already the strongest template weapon as is they don't need a buff.

hobojebus wrote:
No flamers are already the strongest template weapon as is they don't need a buff.

There is no such thing as a template weapon.

I 110% support buffing Flamers, and the fact I am playing Salamanders and Just got finished painting a six man Aggressor squad is merely a coincidence.

Firmly in the camp that flamers are fine right now.

Flamers suck right now, the fact you can get 1 hit is dumb, 3D2 is actually better for their price.

 Talamare wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

Please explain how they got better. They are more expensive, have a lower potential for shots, don't deny cover, and units that didn't get armor saves against them suddenly do (IG, Orks, Tyranid infantry, etc) By all accounts they are worse.

d6 shots regardless of number of targets
Full shots when in range of a single target

Kudos for at least supporting your position with a rationale. Most people are just saying "they're great because they're the best".

That being said, flamers exist to fill a specific niche: flushing enemy units from cover. They no longer do that. Their secondary niche is roasting large mobs of enemy units. If you are concerned with killing a single multiple wound model at close range, melta weapons are the optimal choice. It's neat that flamers are better in that situation, but that is not why you take them, because other weapons are better in that role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Flamers suck right now, the fact you can get 1 hit is dumb, 3D2 is actually better for their price.

THIS.^
Autohit is a lie if 5 out of 6 potential shots are likely to not hit the target. Flamers need this tweaked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
Flamers suck, they should ignore cover. You cant hide from fire. Instead of 1D6 they should be 2D3, heavy flamers should be 3D3, and have 12" range.

Good suggestions.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
No flamers are already the strongest template weapon as is they don't need a buff.

There is no such thing as a template weapon.

Dont be obtuse.

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

That would make deepstriking flamers an imba win-button.

D3+3 hits, not to exceed the number of models in the target unit.

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

Still no flaming from deepstrike with 9" range.

Pancakey wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Flamers are pretty great right now

The only arguable buff that Flamers might need (or want) is to be buffed from 8" to 9"

Still no flaming from deepstrike with 9" range.

Yeah since you have to be set up "more than 9" away", which means you'll be 9"+ℓP at the very best

hobojebus wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
No flamers are already the strongest template weapon as is they don't need a buff.

There is no such thing as a template weapon.

Dont be obtuse.

Statement stands - they are not anywhere near the "strongest template weapon - as there are no template weapons, and they have suffered a downgrade.

Flamers are in a bad spot

1) Randomization of hits in a world where hordes are now a thing is bad.
2) Wall of death no longer being a thing is bad
3) Lack of cover pen is bad.

My only comment is cost and I am talking the heavy flamer. Against MEQ, for its cost, I don't like it. Hits 3.5, wounds 2/3, armor 50%=1.15 kills a shot which is not terrible, but once again pales in comparison to the plasma gun, because of range, cost, etc. Against 5+ and 6+ save armies, better, but even then its only 2-3 orcs for 17 points at their charge range. Masses of ANY weapon do lots of damage, so yes, 4 heavy flamers in a single unit on overwatch...brutal when they fire, but come on...shoot that unit already. The range is now a HUGE factor with many, many fast armies, first turn charges, and deep striking equivalent alpha strikes. Do I think it needs a huge point reduction? No. But right now those two heavy bolters for same cost, or 2.5 plasma guns seems far more tempting.
Now the issue may again not be the cost of the flamers. We might be back to plasma is way to cheap.

Anecdotal evidence...
I play Sisters of battle as my main army. Flamer spam is never the reason I win. Celestine, seraphim, and combined arms from battle squads. Yes, the jump out and flame death squad gets its one use, and does its job. But only a foolish opponent leaves them on the table to shoot again. I generally use them as a distraction for the rhino carrying repentia. In truth my 5 storm bolter squad does more overall (hey, 5 storm bolters...10/17th the cost of that one heavy flamer...at close range, more powerful. 20 shotsx2/3x1/2x2/3=4.35 dead marines and at long range, no need to compare...even on overwatch, they kill 1.089 (barely less than a heavy flamer...)

I mean ideally I'd like to see them be 2+D4 hits, but since GW are stingy I guess 3+D3 works if a little "too" good because it's a minimum of 4 hits instead of 3. Maybe 2+D6 to a maximum of 6?