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Are berzerkers never able to be troops in the new CSM codex? I'm looking for an option for WE (or anyone for that matter) to make them troops, but I dont see it. Am i just missing something or are they staying in the elites slot this edition?

Staying Elite. All of the 4 Dedicated guys are staying as non-troops, to trade off for the advantage of troops getting Objective Secured. They're a tad fanatical.

You'll need to take 1 HQ 3 Elites formation or the like to load up on the special marines.

Is there an FAQ or something that states we cant use the Index's version of Berzerkers? They are troop chioces with the World Eaters keyword, not <Legion> like the elite version in the new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, in the index, under the World Eaters army rules, it allows berzerkers to be troops for World Eaters only. I cant find any rule like it in the codex, but i also cannot find anything disallowing it. Since GW already said things found in the index but not in the codex are still valid, wouldnt that mean the World Eaters rule still works?

The Index/Codex exception is explicitly for things not found in the Codex. This is almost entirely equipment options, so no, probably not, and, as mentioned, there are FOC options that allow you to work around it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Index/Codex exception is explicitly for things not found in the Codex. This is almost entirely equipment options, so no, probably not, and, as mentioned, there are FOC options that allow you to work around it.

This is correct, they've stated before that whatever the latest printing is overrides the older ones.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Index/Codex exception is explicitly for things not found in the Codex. This is almost entirely equipment options, so no, probably not, and, as mentioned, there are FOC options that allow you to work around it.

The rule allowing World Eaters to take berzerker troops is not in the codex, its not mentioned one way or the other. Since nothing says they cant be, wouldnt it seem that its still allowed? My thinking is that they would have stated in the codex if they wanted to remove a rule that is the index, right? Could just be an oversite, i will hit up GW facebook page and post their response here.

The website says that the Index is only to be used in the case where there isn't a valid datasheet for an existing model combination. Given that's the wording and their stated intention (so your older models remain valid and have rules), I'm guessing no, the legion rules don't get to benefit from this.

However since it's not officially stated, you technically can. But I don't think a lot of people are willing to agree to it (they're always free to refuse a game, and TOs have their own rules) and GW will probably come out with another Designer's Commentary or FAQ stating their exact intentions (like with the whole "Call my Chaos Marines Blood Angels" thing).

IMHO this is definatly worth asking GW about.

I didnt realize it stated datasheet specifically. Before I thought it was a valid question, but now I am not so sure. However, I already emailed them so we shall see.

I would be genuinely surprised if the answer was yes. However I have been wrong before.

After looking at the codex some more, there are very few restrictions in regards to what you can take with each legion. The only thing I can find says that World Eaters units must have the Mark of Khorne "if they are able to do so." Same goes for Emperor's Children and Slaanesh. So from what I can tell, any legion can take any unit, World Eater Noise marines or Emperoers children Berzerkers are totally legal. They wouldnt benefit from Lord auras or mark related bonuses, but the all four of the cult marines can be given any legion keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So AL infiltrating Berzerkers would be a thing!

They also specifically mentioned they removed cult troops as being troops because they did NOT want them having ObSec.

If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

 Arkaine wrote:
If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

..Of course a datasheet is replaced when a new one is released.

IFC_Casting wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

..Of course a datasheet is replaced when a new one is released.

There are two of them in the Index, in separate sections, with specific legion construction rules, troop slots, and World Eater specific keywords. None of which has been replaced in the new codex. If a datasheet universally replaces old ones, the new datasheets for transports do as well and by the codex bans the special snowflake SM factions from using theirs until they get their own codex allowing them to use their Legion keywords once again with those datasheets.

The topic title should be "No Rhinos as Dark Angels".

It definitely seems like it could go either way, but I am starting to think the intent was for the cult troops to stay elites.

But I assume that Plague Marines will still be troops in the Death Guard codex, and if that's the case then surely the cult marines will eventually be troops in their respective codex.

The issue, then, seems to be that they didn't want people taking a WE/EC detachment for good troops, and then fill it out with the rest.

But if that's the case, all this could have been solved by them just saying: "Berzerkers and Noise Marines count as troops if all detachments in the army are WE/EC." Problem solved. No cheese. Cult troops.

For heaven's sake.

 Arkaine wrote:

IFC_Casting wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
If people wanna argue that the troop datasheet is replaced rather than separate from the cult legion ones then all the SM players except the Grey Knights can't ride in their transports.

..Of course a datasheet is replaced when a new one is released.

There are two of them in the Index, in separate sections, with specific legion construction rules, troop slots, and World Eater specific keywords. None of which has been replaced in the new codex. If a datasheet universally replaces old ones, the new datasheets for transports do as well and by the codex bans the special snowflake SM factions from using theirs until they get their own codex allowing them to use their Legion keywords once again with those datasheets.

The topic title should be "No Rhinos as Dark Angels".

except that's a bad comparison because dark angels, blood angels and space wolves get their own codices. wolrd eaters and emperor's children are specificly in codex space marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
except that's a bad comparison because dark angels, blood angels and space wolves get their own codices. wolrd eaters and emperor's children are specificly in codex space marines.

Just as they do in the index, an entire chapter devoted to World Eaters with legion-constructing rules that were not replaced and specific rules and entries making cult units into troops, a mini-codex for each of the four special legions. Please show me where in the codex these elements have been replaced. There is nothing in the new codex about how to construct a World Eaters army. People are simply focusing on the codex update of a sheet that exists in the CSM section of the Index along with the Legion keyword rules the permit the use of World Eaters and Emperor's Children as legion choices. That's all they're going off of. If I'm to be forced to accept Rubric updates then I'm forced to accept Rhino updates and so Thousand Sons are incapable of using transports along with half the Space Marine players.

No unit in this codex may choose the Thousand Sons or Death Guard keywords and the Rhino is in the codex. They either broke six of the factions in the game by banning them from using non-Forgeworld transports or people are reading WAY too much into what it states about datasheet updates. You'd think this was crystal clear given the fact that we have two datasheets for the same unit in the Index along with specific cult rules that grant them troop choices inherently, rules that were never updated or replaced. But hey, Death Guard should be releasing next month...

Anyone who wants to buy into this "RAW" is welcome to get those Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, Drop Pods, and Rhinos off the field in time for Chaos to conquer Konor.

If you really want to split hairs like that, then here's some things from the Q&A page that allows this:

1.) It's to be used for OPTIONS that are not available in the codex. The thing calls out specifically a "model and it's weapons", which means that unless the WE datasheet in the index can produce a combination that is not in the codex, you're using the codex.

2.) Again, it's representing individual models and their weapons, which legion rules have nothing on as the legion rules neither grants an additional, unavailable option, nor is a datasheet in of itself.

3.) The same document gives BA, DA and SW permission to keep using the index. They specifically call out "Space Marine Factions", and only space marine factions, no one else.

Of course, no one reads the document like that, especially since GW has become more open with their intent and told us what they expect us to do.

On a side note, as for DG and T-Sons if you decide to read RAW like that: Eh they've endured worse. T-Sons went 3 editions being the laughing stock of the entire codex while DG are currently bumming it out terminator-less.

Wakshaani wrote:
Staying Elite. All of the 4 Dedicated guys are staying as non-troops, to trade off for the advantage of troops getting Objective Secured. They're a tad fanatical.

Well no, the CSM codex doesn't override DG or tsons specific rules. Anyone saying otherwise isn't someone you should bother playing with. It's not like you were running either in a tournament right now.

If GW says you can't run a battalion of tsons or DG without using non CSM units then I can't even imagine purchasing any of the new stuff. My DG can just sit on the shelf till that worthless moron is fired and replaced with someone competent.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) It's to be used for OPTIONS that are not available in the codex. The thing calls out specifically a "model and it's weapons", which means that unless the WE datasheet in the index can produce a combination that is not in the codex, you're using the codex.

The Berzerker datasheet isn't what grants them the right to troops in World Eaters armies. It's the World Eaters army rules. They have their own army rules just like every other special snowflake faction and this new codex has done nothing to replace those, only to make certain options accessible to them. Death to the False Emperor and Daemonic Ritual are examples of CSM army rules and do not magically disappear just because you selected a legion trait. The legion rules for WE in the new codex stack with the old army rules from the index, which grant them Berzerkers as troops. The same index bans Thousand Sons and Death Guard from using normal CSM or other cult legions because our only marine troops ARE the Rubrics and Plague Marines.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
2.) Again, it's representing individual models and their weapons, which legion rules have nothing on as the legion rules neither grants an additional, unavailable option, nor is a datasheet in of itself.

Since you're arguing that legion rules do not affect the Rhino then the same section of rules do not affect World Eaters overall, which means the existing army rules for them that permit Berzerkers as troops (found on pg 45 of the index) still apply. Simply updating a datasheet, as you put it, does nothing for altering the rules given and there is NOTHING in the codex that says World Eaters no longer use their old army rules, which as mentioned above are more than capable of stacking with Legion traits. They are only mentioned to give them access to Stratagems now instead of whenever in the next millennium they get their own codex to replace the Index rules.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
3.) The same document gives BA, DA and SW permission to keep using the index. They specifically call out "Space Marine Factions", and only space marine factions, no one else.

Space Marines are not special snowflakes and GW frequently cites examples to support their general rulings. These are not the only members the benefit. Rhinos have recently been updated in the Grey Knights codex and carry the Grey Knights chapter keyword only. According to GW, newer datasheets override old ones, and since the old Grey Knights Rhino was pulled from the Space Marine index, it's the same entry. Loyalists may not use Rhinos unless they are part of the Grey Knights chapter.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Of course, no one reads the document like that, especially since GW has become more open with their intent and told us what they expect us to do.

No, they haven't, they've provided two very different interpretations that have been warring over this for a while when the intent seems perfectly clear and it wasn't to remove them as troops but to expand on their options until a new codex arrives, which DG/TS and the loyalists don't need since they're getting their codex releases quite soon.

(If I were you I'd expect the "Berserkers as Troops" rule to come in a World Eaters add-on Codex at some vague and unspecified future date, around the same time GW gets around to updating the models.)

(You know, like the "supplements" business model from 7th that replaced a lot of the options that existed in Codexes in older editions.)

So the posts I was responding to both disappeared but.. Yeah you can't always use the most recent pricing for a unit/item regardless of origin. I mean, how would pricing for weapons across armies change? Everyone uses the most recent power fist price printed for any army?

WE/EC had a separate data sheet for their cult units, which means there needs to be some clarification. Hopefully during which they will muzzle the idiot designer from the stream (if someone wants to supply the name, feel free) and someone competent will faq it properly.

You always use the most recent rules. It's the only way the game can work, otherwise I could claim to want to use the points values from 3rd edition.

This is most likely intentional due to giving all Troops Objective Secured.

 Arkaine wrote:

Spoiler:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) It's to be used for OPTIONS that are not available in the codex. The thing calls out specifically a "model and it's weapons", which means that unless the WE datasheet in the index can produce a combination that is not in the codex, you're using the codex.

The Berzerker datasheet isn't what grants them the right to troops in World Eaters armies. It's the World Eaters army rules. They have their own army rules just like every other special snowflake faction and this new codex has done nothing to replace those, only to make certain options accessible to them. Death to the False Emperor and Daemonic Ritual are examples of CSM army rules and do not magically disappear just because you selected a legion trait. The legion rules for WE in the new codex stack with the old army rules from the index, which grant them Berzerkers as troops. The same index bans Thousand Sons and Death Guard from using normal CSM or other cult legions because our only marine troops ARE the Rubrics and Plague Marines.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
2.) Again, it's representing individual models and their weapons, which legion rules have nothing on as the legion rules neither grants an additional, unavailable option, nor is a datasheet in of itself.

Since you're arguing that legion rules do not affect the Rhino then the same section of rules do not affect World Eaters overall, which means the existing army rules for them that permit Berzerkers as troops (found on pg 45 of the index) still apply. Simply updating a datasheet, as you put it, does nothing for altering the rules given and there is NOTHING in the codex that says World Eaters no longer use their old army rules, which as mentioned above are more than capable of stacking with Legion traits. They are only mentioned to give them access to Stratagems now instead of whenever in the next millennium they get their own codex to replace the Index rules.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
3.) The same document gives BA, DA and SW permission to keep using the index. They specifically call out "Space Marine Factions", and only space marine factions, no one else.

Space Marines are not special snowflakes and GW frequently cites examples to support their general rulings. These are not the only members the benefit. Rhinos have recently been updated in the Grey Knights codex and carry the Grey Knights chapter keyword only. According to GW, newer datasheets override old ones, and since the old Grey Knights Rhino was pulled from the Space Marine index, it's the same entry. Loyalists may not use Rhinos unless they are part of the Grey Knights chapter.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Of course, no one reads the document like that, especially since GW has become more open with their intent and told us what they expect us to do.

No, they haven't, they've provided two very different interpretations that have been warring over this for a while when the intent seems perfectly clear and it wasn't to remove them as troops but to expand on their options until a new codex arrives, which DG/TS and the loyalists don't need since they're getting their codex releases quite soon.

Spoiler'd the quote because it's absolutely HUGE.

Anyways, For the first point, you're not listening to what I'm saying. The Document that grants you the ability to use legacy rules only applies to Options, which they state is models and wargear. This is because they don't want to cheese off the people who already have these models. It is not a blanket "Every rule is valid until replaced". I have no idea where people are getting this idea.

For the second point, I said that legion rules don't "grant(s) an additional, unavailable option", I never said it didn't affect them at all. And if you're arguing that World Eaters can use their old rules because "ain't no one said they can't", then there isn't a rule saying they can either. Warhammer is a permissive game, not the other way around. The document says Index things, if they're valid, can benefit from Codex things, but they didn't give a blanket statement for the reverse.

For the third point, this is flat out ignoring another bullet point in the same document. If you must argue RAW then you must take the whole document, as written, into account. Unlike your example in point two, GW gave specific permission for those armies to use the older index entries.

For the last point, yes, they did. Which is spelled out so in the same document (they actually mention that you're allowed to do this "If you have these older models", so if you really want to split hairs about this, any models created after the publication of that document is also invalid, even if you have the index). And if the fact that they keep repeating "we assume you’re using the latest version." or something to that effect, I'm guessing their intention is for you to use the latest version unless in ultra special cases like above. GW expects a modicum of common sense from those that play it's games and my general rule is that if something sounds a little too good to be true, the polite way of doing this is to not do it. It helps you avoid situations like this as well as avoid OP combos. If you must do it, make absolutely sure your opponent is aware of the shenanigan-dry that's about to happen by twirling a handlebar mustache and cackling maniacally.

 Arkaine wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except that's a bad comparison because dark angels, blood angels and space wolves get their own codices. wolrd eaters and emperor's children are specificly in codex space marines.

Just as they do in the index, an entire chapter devoted to World Eaters with legion-constructing rules that were not replaced and specific rules and entries making cult units into troops, a mini-codex for each of the four special legions. Please show me where in the codex these elements have been replaced. There is nothing in the new codex about how to construct a World Eaters army. People are simply focusing on the codex update of a sheet that exists in the CSM section of the Index along with the Legion keyword rules the permit the use of World Eaters and Emperor's Children as legion choices. That's all they're going off of. If I'm to be forced to accept Rubric updates then I'm forced to accept Rhino updates and so Thousand Sons are incapable of using transports along with half the Space Marine players.

No unit in this codex may choose the Thousand Sons or Death Guard keywords and the Rhino is in the codex. They either broke six of the factions in the game by banning them from using non-Forgeworld transports or people are reading WAY too much into what it states about datasheet updates. You'd think this was crystal clear given the fact that we have two datasheets for the same unit in the Index along with specific cult rules that grant them troop choices inherently, rules that were never updated or replaced. But hey, Death Guard should be releasing next month...

Anyone who wants to buy into this "RAW" is welcome to get those Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, Drop Pods, and Rhinos off the field in time for Chaos to conquer Konor.

Apparently you don't understand how the indices work. yet again, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, 1K sons and death guard are all completely seperate armies with their own codices that share some units, as such the indices provided one sheet for rhinos etc and said "use this for all"

World Eaters and Emperor's Children have their rules in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. it's worth comparing the black templars here whom GW happily noted in codex space marines that they could not use psykers.

I'm certainly willing to accept this is a mistake and should be errated. but your argument that somehow space wolves should not be able to use rhinos is a false equivolance and you know it

You're going to have to bring this to YMDC if you wish to continue because we can go all day talking about this permissive ruleset and how the army rules present in the Index have not been supplanted yet as there is no new World Eaters codex to do. Merely existing in the CSM codex does not remove their entries and army rules as a standalone army and as you said it's a permissive ruleset. Something would have to. The new codex is heavily centered around giving legions extra benefits supplemental to what they had previously, even to the point that they still do not deny legacy items. You keep confusing what specific permission means and failing to understand what the rules for the Codex are actually replacing, which you can find in the very same FAQ we've all been discussing. Your interpretation is not right simply because you think it is.

Oh, you never touched on my Rhino example. I don't care about other armies that you think are entitled to use Index only, Space Marines in general have an updated datasheet in a newer codex that they may not use, and this codex does not include any wording prohibiting others from being affected. As you just finished ranting about, it's a permissive ruleset. You have no permission to use Rhinos now that they have a newer datasheet replacing the older one, especially given that Space Marines are not "other space marines factions" that are exempt from this rule. Yet funny how it does declare that Dark Angels are both a Space Marine faction and still their own faction simultaneously.

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."

There are so many things wrong with that argument that no longer even know where to start anymore.

For everyone else, I highly recommend reading the actual Q&A page first (Found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/ ). It's a lot less confusing and ambiguous as people make it out to be.

With that, I'm out.