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I'm about finished with a new eldar list, I have one slot left to fill, a faster moving anti-meq oriented unit. I was settled on shining spears, but having received the new forgeworld index, the shadow spectres are really amazing. After doing a close analysis of the two units, they seem to be neck and neck, and I'm finding it difficult deciding a winner. On the one hand I have a unit of 5 shining spears, and on the other, for roughly the same points, 9 shadow spectres. The shining spears bring 10 total wounds to the spectres 9, toughness 4 to the spectres toughness 3, a 16" move over a 12" move, 4++ against range attacks, 4 shuriken shots plus one shot from the laser lance, and then two laser lance attacks on the charge, with the laser lance bringing damage 2 and -4 ap. The spectres on the other hand carry heavy flamers that auto-hit, have a second firing mode that gives them extra game against stronger infantry with str 6 ap -3, only 1 damage, but with the ability to chain hits together, and have a universal -1 to hit them; both have the fly keyword and a 3+ save. I can't really settle on which one wins out, and I'm not really sure what to give more weight, the -1 to hit them, or the 4++ against shooting attacks. Community please weigh in!

Are you considering bringing Exarchs in the Spectre units, and/or Irilyth?

How many units will your army have before this consideration? If it's a small number, then the Shining Spears would be beneficial, as they would make you more likely to go first.

If you have a ton of units already, then the Spectres will complement the target saturation you already have going on.

Baha thats funny because my army is basically made of both Shining Spears and Shadow Spectres

They really are neck and neck and in a vacuum neither one wins out. Especially with the way you are looking at things.

Try looking at the problem from a different angle and ask yourself these questions.

1.Which of the two units synergize with your army better? (Farseer guide + Shadow Spectres = WIN the synergy is AMAZING) (Do you have any units meant to support your Spears after the initial assault?)
2. What type of armies do you normally play against?
3. Are you going Ynnari? (This is a big one)
4. What type of playstyle do you like? Shadow Spectres are a little bit more defensive and counter attack oriented (If the opponent charges or gets too close they get hit in the face with 10 heavy flacers) Whereas Shining Spears are all about taking the initiative and striking at the heart of the enemy (Smack the heavy weapons ASAP and you wont have to worry about them the rest of the game) .

Whichever unit you should choose should will boil down to the answers to those questions.

Edit: Typos

Well I am going Ynnari, so I assume that tips things strongly in favor of shining spears. The rest of the army is completely mechanized, elite heavy hitters (fire dragons, wraithguard, dark reapers) inside wave serpents. My fear is that in that scenario the spectres will get shot to shreds as the wave serpents are so durable against so many things, it may just funnel all the small arms fire into whichever I choose. And losing battle focus feels problematic for the spectres to be sure.

peteralmo wrote:
Well I am going Ynnari, so I assume that tips things strongly in favor of shining spears. The rest of the army is completely mechanized, elite heavy hitters (fire dragons, wraithguard, dark reapers) inside wave serpents. My fear is that in that scenario the spectres will get shot to shreds as the wave serpents are so durable against so many things, it may just funnel all the small arms fire into whichever I choose. And losing battle focus feels problematic for the spectres to be sure.

Thats funny, because I was thinking that considering your list I would have chosen the opposite and gone with the Spectres


Your heavy hitters seem like they are a bunch of already Anti-Tank weapons. Dark Reapers + Yvraine is a gak load of anti MEQ already with her WoP ability. The way your list looks is that it will have a hard time against horde armies. Q in the Shadow Spectres and you get an anti MEQ/horde unit creating flexibility for your army if incase you come across a horde list. The downside is that if you don't have a Farseer to use guide on these guys, they lose a lot of their potential as an MEQ hunting choice. If you crunch the numbers correctly, their disperse beam is actually better at MEQ than their focus beam if you don't have a Farseer available. If a Farseer is available, then you have a great MEQ hunting team that doesn't need to charge and risk their necks getting counter charged. If they do get charged by horde or MEQ, then their disperse beam gold as half their unit can be obliterated by overwatch.

If you really are hell bent on sticking to only MEQ then yes Shining spears wreck every marines' day and while they aren't as good at anti-horde, they'll be very potent at wiping entire units of marines if you get off a good soul burst in the assault phase. They're a lot more Alpha strikey than Spectres. Be warned, the best way to use these guys is with overwhelming force to smash anything they come across and therefore it would be best to take them in high enough numbers. So if you're only using them to support the rest of your army or you're only going to take a small unit of them, then Shadow Spectres would be a better option. On the other hand, if you like smashing enemies flanks with just one devastating charge and you plan on using these guys as a large piece of your army, Spears + Soul Burst is just tasty.

I find spears better at anti tank and spectres better at anti everything else.

Both are very strong in this edition tho. And will be targeted first.
As is mentioned the rest of the army matters. Shining spears with inbuilt reroll wounds against big stuff make them a bit more self reliant. Spectres backed up by psychic are extremely dangerous. Guide benefits them incredibly. Then they become an awesome target for wotp as well. And they love conceal also.

I'd try to fit in both!

What's the optimal unit size for the spectres? How many would you take in a 2k list?

I agree with most of whats been said here. The pivotal unit of the list is 10 dark reapers with yvraine in a wave serpent, I have to imagine that must be the opponents focus. The wraithguard are going with scythes, and I've actually kitted the fire dragon exrachs with dragons breath flamers, all for the sake of giving me better game against hordes, since, as you've pointed out, the army is well covered against MEQ/TEQ and tanks. I completely agree with the inclusion of a farseer with the spectres as a fantastic combo, however I'm kind of holding back on that till the codex - I may be wrong, but 170 points for a bog standard farseer skyrunner feels...incorrect, it's just to expensive, I think the point cost is wrong and will come down in the codex; I mean a basic farseer skyrunner costs more than almost every phoenix lord. I think the point that swings it for me is probably unit size, I agree that I probably want a larger unit of spears than the 5 I currently have, and I agree dedicated anti-horde is more important given the contents of my list - I think for now I'll go with the 10x spectres, with an eye toward perhaps including a farseer skyrunner in the future if the points are adjusted.

peteralmo wrote:
I agree with most of whats been said here. The pivotal unit of the list is 10 dark reapers with yvraine in a wave serpent, I have to imagine that must be the opponents focus. The wraithguard are going with scythes, and I've actually kitted the fire dragon exrachs with dragons breath flamers, all for the sake of giving me better game against hordes, since, as you've pointed out, the army is well covered against MEQ/TEQ and tanks. I completely agree with the inclusion of a farseer with the spectres as a fantastic combo, however I'm kind of holding back on that till the codex - I may be wrong, but 170 points for a bog standard farseer skyrunner feels...incorrect, it's just to expensive, I think the point cost is wrong and will come down in the codex; I mean a basic farseer skyrunner costs more than almost every phoenix lord. I think the point that swings it for me is probably unit size, I agree that I probably want a larger unit of spears than the 5 I currently have, and I agree dedicated anti-horde is more important given the contents of my list - I think for now I'll go with the 10x spectres, with an eye toward perhaps including a farseer skyrunner in the future if the points are adjusted.

I'm glad I could help

You can always just grab a regular Farseer if the Skyrunner is too expensive.

For a budget option, you could take the autarch with warp jump generator. It's obviously not as versatile as a Farseer, but gets you halfway to rerolling misses, can easily keep up with the shadow spectres, and costs almost 100 fewer points.

Great point