How does the Guard fare without Scions and Conscripts?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Otto von Bludd**

As evidenced by various tournament Guard lists, these two units are currently the backbone of a competitive Guard army. Since it seems likely that both these units will be nerfed / adjusted in the future I would like to hear about the performance of Guard armies that do not include them. That is, how are Guard players who are choosing to run Infantry Squads over the aforementioned units, or running detachments without any Troops, doing? Is anyone doing this regularly? Are multiple Infantry Squads, perhaps in Chimeras, able to hold the line like a blob of Conscripts or are they not cheap enough / numerous enough per squad to do it?

**gungo**

Hmm since those are the two main troop slots. Not very well however guards still have taurox primes, vendetta/vulture, basilisk carriage platforms, manticore, medusa platforms, tarrantula lasers and you can get by with melta/plasma infantry.

**CplPunishment**

I personally prefer Infantry Squads over conscripts. I think the humble infantry squad is highly under-rated.

The main reason why I dropped conscripts was not because they were underperforming, but because they were making my games take too long! You can't win a game you don't finish, after all.

Scions are indispensable right now in my army. They allow me to drop in to exploit weak spots and snatch up objectives that have been cleared by artillery. Mechanized and Airborne infantry can fulfill this role, but transports are extremely expensive. Airborne drops are, quite frankly, the most cost-efficient way of taking the fight to the enemy.

**Colonel Cross**

I've won plenty of games with no conscripts and Scions haven't been required. Our infantry is plenty strong on their own. I don't even have a manticore or multiple Basilisks.

**vipoid**

CplPunishment wrote:
I personally prefer Infantry Squads over conscripts.

Same. I don't know if they're necessarily better, but I think they're more interesting and (since I don't take artillery) I find their special and heavy weapons very useful.

CplPunishment wrote:

Scions are indispensable right now in my army. They allow me to drop in to exploit weak spots and snatch up objectives that have been cleared by artillery. Mechanized and Airborne infantry can fulfill this role, but transports are extremely expensive. Airborne drops are, quite frankly, the most cost-efficient way of taking the fight to the enemy.

Yeah, as someone who uses infantry-IG, I find Scions invaluable for quickly reaching the enemy's back lines.

**broxus**

I think conscripts will get a nerf. I doubt the scions will get a nerf since they already had one. Their problem was just the command squad spam that is no longer feasible. The troop choices are fine.

Honestly I havent used conscripts and I have been struggling in many games since normal infantry squads are so fragile. Bolters shred them (as they are designed). Once the bubble wrapping is gone, my tanks are really challenged since they can't shoot after leaving combat.

**vipoid**

Plasmaguns might go up in points for Scions (perhaps to about 9-10), which would be reasonable.

**U02dah4**

I've done without scions but then I most use rough rider's to cover there role. The second a codex comes out you will probably see that more of a preference because rough riders are regiment where as scion wold stop you getting regiment bonuaes.

I haven't found conscripts to be that great a performer and prefer infantry squads as well.

Note conscripts are great if your opponent spammed anti tank and or spends 3/4 quarters of the game shooting the conscripts rather than the damage output in your list but that's your opponents stupidy. People keep telling me the units that are designed to deal with conscripts are bad so they don't take them so struggle to deal with conscripts

Personally plasma guns need to be 1-2 pts more melta needs +1dam across all codexs and commissar could probably do with a 5pt increase and lord commissar 10pt.

If you add 1pt to.conscripts they become unplayable because for an identical pts cost I can take infantry squads that are better if you nerf their shooting it makes little difference. You could make them T2 but that would be a break with tradition and again prob ably make them unplayable

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about it though having a rule that conscripts cannot be taken in detachments that contain scions might work. That way your not weakening either choice justo the combination

**Otto von Bludd**

How many Infantry Squads are you all running? I've been running 6 to fill out a Brigade but I'm not sure if it is enough, or if I just need to screen them better (perhaps with Scout Sentinels to get outside of my deployment) because usually none of them survive the game. That is their job of course because currently THEY are the screen, but I think it will become problematic when we get objective secured and all my troops are dead. I would like to mech them all up in Chimeras but that is a huge amount of points.

**MinscS2**

Haven't used Conscripts in 8th, and if I use Scions it's a 10man unit with Hotshot Lasguns.

I have yet to lose a game with my IG in 8th. Granted, I don't play in a WAAC-environment but still.

Edit: I run plenty of infantry squads though, usually 6.

**SilverAlien**

Perfectly fine. Infantry squads are still one of the better troops in the game (which says a lot about guards overall balance that they get ignored).

IG is generally undercosted across the board compared to most armies. With the exception of the leman Russ variants, and s few other things.

**vipoid**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
How many Infantry Squads are you all running? I've been running 6 to fill out a Brigade but I'm not sure if it is enough, or if I just need to screen them better (perhaps with Scout Sentinels to get outside of my deployment) because usually none of them survive the game. That is their job of course because currently THEY are the screen, but I think it will become problematic when we get objective secured and all my troops are dead. I would like to mech them all up in Chimeras but that is a huge amount of points.

Currently I run about 3 per 500pts - 2 with lascannons and plasmaguns and 1 with a Flamer as a screening squad.

**CplPunishment**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
How many Infantry Squads are you all running? I've been running 6 to fill out a Brigade but I'm not sure if it is enough, or if I just need to screen them better (perhaps with Scout Sentinels to get outside of my deployment) because usually none of them survive the game. That is their job of course because currently THEY are the screen, but I think it will become problematic when we get objective secured and all my troops are dead. I would like to mech them all up in Chimeras but that is a huge amount of points.

6 infantry squads to fill up a brigade. I am contemplating running 9 barebones squads (since their special/heavy weapons suffer from bs4+ and 1st turn charges galore). Add to this a trio of scions and we can put troops wherever the big guns clear the space.

Sentinels are great for scouting ahead and denying the enemy prime drop zones for T1 charges. Save points and take the multilaser. This helps fill out a brigade's FA attack requirements for 135pts total. Remember that they are purely strategic in nature. That way their low firepower cannot disappoint you.

**U02dah4**

5 infantry with 1 conscript unit to bubble-wrap them from 1st turn charge.

Each infantry squad has heavy bolter+ plasma gun+bolt gun.

**NH Gunsmith**

I won't be using any Conscripts or Scions in my army. I am playing my first game with the Guard once Saturday, will let you know how it goes.

**CplPunishment**

NH Gunsmith wrote:
I won't be using any Conscripts or Scions in my army. I am playing my first game with the Guard once Saturday, will let you know how it goes.

You will definitely need a lot of infantry squads then! They aren't too bad, actually.

**Otto von Bludd**

One benefit of the IS is that you can generally get away without using Commissars. The Squad usually dies outright (what usually happens) or the Sarge's LD7 is enough to see them through.

**koooaei**

You can make a taurox + basilisk/manticore spam list and it'll work cause those are pretty powerful too. You don't even need any troops - though, it'd be better to at least have some bodies to bauble wrap and ward against charges.
Remember that you can take transports for any unit - not necesserily troops. So, your basilisks can have tauroxes as dedicated transports.

**U02dah4**

You don't need a commissar but yarrick doesn't hurt

**basedgigi**

Another thing to consider if you are worried about morale is inquisitors, for 55 points you get a psyker and a bubble of ld9, which should be enough for infantry squads.

**Klowny**

HWT spam is cancerto fight against. I'm talking 10-12 squads. Not fun, but effective

**pismakron**

They do very well. Imperial Guard is very strong across the board with the exception of most Leman Russ variants. But plasma scions are still crazy good.

**daedalus**

I do pretty good without conscripts, but I do bring scions. My winning combination so far seems to be 4 x 10 infantry with plasma pistol, plasmagun, and power sword. I'll also bring somewhere around 3 HWS to camp out in a Stormlord. I usually put about 20 or so Scions in on top of that, and then pad the rest out with support characters and basilisks.

I'm W/L 1/2 for the edition, which doesn't look good, but the first game was me getting used to the new edition against people who'd already had a few games under their belts, the second game was me tabling GK, and then the third game was when an Eldar player played conceal wrong. After we found out it wasn't supposed to include vehicles, he thought I would have had the game.

I don't honestly think conscripts need a nerf, but I suspect they will, though for want of all the first turn assault players not being able to let their gimmick work without getting shot at by tanks for a while. I totally think Scions are too good though. Or plasma is too good. Or both. To be honest, I'd probably take them still if plasma was 10-15 points. I guess we'll see how it goes though.

**necron99**

broxus wrote:
I think conscripts will get a nerf. I doubt the scions will get a nerf since they already had one. Their problem was just the command squad spam that is no longer feasible. The troop choices are fine.

Honestly I havent used conscripts and I have been struggling in many games since normal infantry squads are so fragile. Bolters shred them (as they are designed). Once the bubble wrapping is gone, my tanks are really challenged since they can't shoot after leaving combat.

Why isn't command squad spam feasible?

**vipoid**

necron99 wrote:
Why isn't command squad spam feasible?

Because you now need to take a 40pt Tempestor Prime for each Scion Command Squad you want to take.

**U02dah4**

2 reasons firstly they FAQ'd it so that you can only include 1 per officer which is kind of a large tax.

Secondly while a vanilla command squad or one with sniper rifles is viable and cost effective but its not gonna be hugely impactfull.

So to make it really work you add in plasma guns etc etc... which make it powerful. However with no squishy bodies to soak up those wounds it dies to anything that can see it making it a prime target.

This means either you need to stick it in something with firepoints which ups the cost till its no longer cheap and a lot of the time say with a bastion you might be better off with a veteran squad. Although the five plasma command squad baneblade is awesome for comedy value if you want an army of one unit.

or

Use it to deepstrike suicide as in tempestus scions. Which is very effective but the officer tax on a suicide unit means its no longer cost effective.

**CplPunishment**

Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

**vipoid**

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

I think if plasma goes up by a few points they'll be fine.

**necron99**

vipoid wrote:
necron99 wrote:
Why isn't command squad spam feasible?

Because you now need to take a 40pt Tempestor Prime for each Scion Command Squad you want to take.

Ah, ok, yeah that's a pain. What I've been doing is dropping two scion command squads within order range of 1 prime. Usually I can do that because 1 command squad isn't enough to take care of the target or there are multiple targets clumped up. If that happens then I'm left with two tiny models that I can deepstrike out of sight in their deployment zone so i can get line breaker.

**daedalus**

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

How do you define good then?