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Is it me or are greater daemons quite lame this edition, compared to daemon princes not only do they have in my opinion an inferior aura (leadership 10 bubble vs re-rolling 1s to hit) they can also be shot at unlike the daemon prince who has character protection.

They also don't seem to be as good at dealing damage vs the vast range of targets a talon prince can reliably take out with there 7/8 attacks. So how would you guys fix greater daemons, personally I think they may need there invulnerable increased and to be given a better aura ability that makes them worth taking.

I hope they'll get better once the Daemon Codex comes out. But in the meantime, I have a few ideas.

All four cost more than they should, for what you currently get – they all need point adjustments. The Bloodthirster(s) and Lord of Change should go down by 30 points, to 310 base. The GUO should be 280 base, while the KOS should be 270 base [as they both get new stuff, below]

One of the weakest things about them is their 'Greater Daemon' Rule. I've found that, most of the time, either Daemons are so big and so few that only one would die in a turn, or are so small and fragile that so many die that the extra leadership won't matter.

I feel a good replacement for this would be something a bit better, like Daemons of the same alignment in 6” Auto-pass morale [but can never trigger Icons].

Bloodthirster: He doesn't seem that bad. He has 3+/5++, 16Ws, so he's decently survivable. But he does cost a LOT of points. With the points reduction proposed above, he'd be quite good.

The Lord of Change: He's not that bad. He has a 4++.

Great Unclean One: One of the weaker ones. I feel he should be Toughness 8, 14 wounds, Price hiked as above, and an option to increase his save. I was thinking something like a 'Nurgling Shield' – before the game begins, you can have him trade the Nurgling's ability to attack, and get a 4+ armor save in return. Maybe a 3+ armor if it costs extra points [25?].

Keeper of Secrets: Likely the weakest of the four. It was weak last edition, too – it was only useful when I could use a reward to give it 3+ armor, and back then the Witstealer Sword healed it. Now, it has very little in the way of protection.

So, I would:
-Reduce it's Toughness to 6 [to reflect it being Slaanesh]
-Allow it to Charge after Advancing
-Add 2” to it's Movement at all levels
-Give it 'A Taste For The Delicate': If a Keeper of Secrets destroys an enemy Aeldari unit, by any means, it heals d3 wounds. It got bonuses vs Eldar last edition, and this mirrors that.
-Give it 'Monstrous Dance': If a Keeper of Secrets Advances and does not charge, it gets a 4+ Armor Save until it's next Charge Phase.

What do you think? Do these make them better? I tried to make them more powerful, but not too much.

Very underpowered and over costed. Dropping a few point will do nothing. A thirster gets shot off the table in one round with all the Las on the table now. Thirsters needs like a 24" movement/advance and can charge mechanic or something like that to make them playable. They can't hide, they move just as fast as a rhino and they are easier to hit with anti flyer weapons. I LOVE my thirsters but they will never see the table anytime soon. Lost every single game I played with them because of the same reason-they get shot to death by the time they make it to combat (I suck as a player in a VERY competitive meta).

I see where you're coming from, Boski51. But they - Bloodthirsters in particular - are only a bit more vulnerable to high-strength, high-AP weapons as they were in 7th. They weren't taken all that often then either - except for the odd Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury, with his cool D-strength Axe, or the occasional Lord of Change to back up special Characters. Even then, it was usually when the list was build to help the Bloodthirster survive, with things like the Grimoire, Invisibility, or the Warp Storm table.

The Greater Daemons occupy an odd niche between Daemon Princes and Titans/Primarchs. They can't hide behind other units, and don't have the sheer number of wounds that LoWs do. So I tried to add more value to them.

But maybe they should become Lords of War? Outside of Forgeworld, Daemons technically don't have any. If they became LoWs, they could have all the 3+ saves and cool powers they want. Plus, it would free up Daemon's overcrowded HQ ranks.

Edit: Daemons as a whole became quite a bit less survivable with the Index, compared to 7th. I feel the Codex will do something to ameliorate this - such as a return of the Warp Storm bonuses in a slightly different form, like how CSM got Boons back.

On the other hand, everything in the game became less survivable and a bit more expensive than before - which was on purpose, as the game designers wanted things to die faster, the game to play faster and the game to be more balanced. Making those bigger changes like you mentioned might make them TOO powerful.

Boski51 wrote:
Very underpowered and over costed. Dropping a few point will do nothing. A thirster gets shot off the table in one round with all the Las on the table now. Thirsters needs like a 24" movement/advance and can charge mechanic or something like that to make them playable. They can't hide, they move just as fast as a rhino and they are easier to hit with anti flyer weapons. I LOVE my thirsters but they will never see the table anytime soon. Lost every single game I played with them because of the same reason-they get shot to death by the time they make it to combat (I suck as a player in a VERY competitive meta).

I completely agree. Love my blood thirster, but the only exciting thing that has happened in 8th is in 1 out of 3 games I've played him where he moved 12" then charged for another 12" on a crazy roll right into melee and stayed in melee for 2 more turns while enemy wasted tons of attacks on him. In melee Thirsters can be vicious, but getting them into melee is the issue. If we could drop them in, would change everything. I miss playing mine now.

I would say make the Thirster 20pts less and +2 or +4 to his move and you got something that can be quite worthwhile.

They are very powerfull in close combat so obviously aren't the most cost effective tough guy out there but they really are quite tough with 16 wounds @ T7 3+/5++ and that you can give them a 6+ FnP as a warlord trait which makes them survivable enough, as long as they can reach combat by second turn which with a 12 inch range is not guaranteed at all. adding just a bit more mov will go a long way and the minor point decrease will make you feel less bad if you lose him to a focused fire battery.

I wouldn't mind a different aura too though, maybe re-roll failed wound rolls

I'm thinking Stratagems will make the difference in the new Codex. If they can get something that allows non-summoning deep strike and some sort of invulnerable bonus they'll be fine. Look to the Chaos Space Marine Codex for an example of what could be done. They' also be more relic and daemonic gifts. Sure would be nice to have Etherblades again on Heralds and unit champions or Soulstealer on a KOS.