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I know this is non fluff but...
Sorcerers are not able to take a mark of Khorne
When selecting a mark you do not have to declare one.
World Eaters must be marked of Khorne, if able to do so.

Does the escape claus of the World Eaters "if able" allow for World Eater legion sorcerers? I don't see anything stopping this. Can someone point out if I missed something?

Ref. Pg. 116 of codex

World Eaters must pick KHORNE if they have the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword. Since a Sorcerer does and can't be KHORNE, he also can't be a World Eater.

RAW ,you are right.

"All world eater units must have mok, if they are able to do so" is the complete rule.
So sorcerers are not able so can take another mark.


But fluff is dead if you do that, and I am not sure why you would not just take a vanilla chapter if you wanted to do so as the World eater-only abilities are not what they should be. I even get the feeling GW is saying with this new codex, "don't play world eaters for a couple of years until they get there own codex" because those berzerkers would benefit way more from a sorcerer (warptime) and run+charge then they would from the world-eater only abilities.
Also now that Berzerkers are no troops anymore the world eater point of existence is only left in the fluff and for fluffy games... And as for kharne... His pts in berzerkers + dark apostle will benefit you more then he does.

No. Sorcerers cannot take the Mark of Khorne, thus they can't take the WE chapter because it would cause them to take the MoK.

The complete rule is: World Eaters must take a mark of Khorne if they are able to do so. So it is not 100% mandatory.

 Goat wrote:
The complete rule is: World Eaters must take a mark of Khorne if they are able to do so. So it is not 100% mandatory.

Is it "if able to do so" or "if able to take a Mark"?

Without having the full rules properly quoted it's hard to help here.

Fluff-wise, hell naw, but you know that. ;-)

From the Chaos Space Marine Codex it says, albeit just the important parts:

You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to
...
The exceptions are units from the World Eaters or Emperor's Children Legions:
all WORLD EATERS units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so
...

So, any unit that has <Mark of Chaos> must take Khorne if it is also a World Eater, it isn't a player choice to not take it in this instance.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Goat wrote:
The complete rule is: World Eaters must take a mark of Khorne if they are able to do so. So it is not 100% mandatory.

Is it "if able to do so" or "if able to take a Mark"?

Without having the full rules properly quoted it's hard to help here.

Fluff-wise, hell naw, but you know that. ;-)

"The exceptions are units from the World Eaters or Emperor’s Children Legions: all WORLD EATERS units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so..."

Therefore, since a Sorcerer is incapable of taking a Mark of Khorne, it cannot be of the World Eaters legion, as World Eaters MUST have the Mark where there is the ability to have a mark.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Goat wrote:
The complete rule is: World Eaters must take a mark of Khorne if they are able to do so. So it is not 100% mandatory.

Is it "if able to do so" or "if able to take a Mark"?

Without having the full rules properly quoted it's hard to help here.

Fluff-wise, hell naw, but you know that. ;-)

"The exceptions are units from the World Eaters or Emperor’s Children Legions: all WORLD EATERS units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so..."

Therefore, since a Sorcerer is incapable of taking a Mark of Khorne, it cannot be of the World Eaters legion, as World Eaters MUST have the Mark where there is the ability to have a mark.

Well the rule itself says "World eaters must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so"

"Psychers cannot have the Khorne keyword" => so is unable to do so, So he can have another/ no mark.

I cannot find something about not being able to include a unit that cannot have the mark of khorne in a world eaters army. only that it must take khorne if it can.

The misunderstanding here is how to correctly read the term "if they are able to do so" and deliberately using the term "Psykers can not have the Khorne keyword".

The two things are mutually exclusive.

If a unit or character has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword, it IS ABLE to take one of the marks.
In the case of World Eaters, this mark MUST be Khorne.
Psykers can not have Khorne, so can NOT be World Eaters.

The rule itself, in plain simple English, means any unit that does NOT have <Mark of Chaos> as a keyword can be a World Eater without taking the Mark of Khorne.

It is elementary simple logic:

If <Legion> is "World Eaters", <Mark of Chaos> is ALWAYS Khorne.

I will agree that it is poorly worded, and will almost definitely be clarified at some point, even though it shouldnt need to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whilst looking over the Chaos Index FAQ, I noticed it says the following

Page 63
– Servants of Slaanesh
Add the following to the end of this paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children Legion.’

Which would strongly suggest that, although not explicitly in the FAQ yet, such an amendment will be added for World Eaters.

Comes down to RAI.

"If they are able to"

Camp A. If they are able to take mark of khorne they must. If that can't then they were not able to and are exempt from that rule

Camp B. If they are able to take a mark they must take mark of khorne to be a world eater.

blaktoof wrote:
Comes down to RAI.

"If they are able to"

Camp A. If they are able to take mark of khorne they must. If that can't then they were not able to and are exempt from that rule

Camp B. If they are able to take a mark they must take mark of khorne to be a world eater.

This isn't even a RAI issue. The RaW is clear and only muddied if you're intentionally trying to twist it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Comes down to RAI.

"If they are able to"

Camp A. If they are able to take mark of khorne they must. If that can't then they were not able to and are exempt from that rule

Camp B. If they are able to take a mark they must take mark of khorne to be a world eater.

This isn't even a RAI issue. The RaW is clear and only muddied if you're intentionally trying to twist it.

I agree with you that they cannot take the Mark or khorne, and cannot be world eaters. However I can see how some people read that line and think they can take emperor's children Lord of skulls, or world eater noise marines.- as fluffwise silly as that is, because those units cannot take the mark of khorne so they are following the if able to by not being able to.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Comes down to RAI.

"If they are able to"

Camp A. If they are able to take mark of khorne they must. If that can't then they were not able to and are exempt from that rule

Camp B. If they are able to take a mark they must take mark of khorne to be a world eater.

This isn't even a RAI issue. The RaW is clear and only muddied if you're intentionally trying to twist it.

RAW is clear. You can take a World Eater's Sorcerer.

Edit: That's not to say the RAW isn't DUMB, but it is clear.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Comes down to RAI.

"If they are able to"

Camp A. If they are able to take mark of khorne they must. If that can't then they were not able to and are exempt from that rule

Camp B. If they are able to take a mark they must take mark of khorne to be a world eater.

This isn't even a RAI issue. The RaW is clear and only muddied if you're intentionally trying to twist it.

RAW is clear. You can take a World Eater's Sorcerer.

Except, you can't, because Sorcerers may not take the Mark of Khorne. World Eaters must take a Mark of Khorne. Therefore Sorcerers can't be from the World Eaters. It's an AND gate, not an OR gate. To say otherwise is simply incorrect, as incorrect as saying "Conscripts are Toughness 20".

World Eaters must take Mark Of Khorne if they are able to.

Sorcerers cannot, so they don't have to, and can still be part of it.

I agree that it's not RAI, I agree that it's dumb, and I agree that you should not play it. RAW, though...

 JNAProductions wrote:
World Eaters must take Mark Of Khorne if they are able to.

Sorcerers cannot, so they don't have to, and can still be part of it.

I agree that it's not RAI, I agree that it's dumb, and I agree that you should not play it. RAW, though...

Again, you are assigning a totally incorrect meaning to the term "if they are able to." Sorcerers are not able to take the Mark of Khorne, so they can't be from the World Eaters. If you knew anything about me I am a staunch RAW activist. I point out that RaW you can't fire assault weapons after advancing all the time. The RaW is clear and only by deliberately misreading what the rule says can it mean anything else.

What definition would you assign to it? Because common English is on my side here.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What definition would you assign to it? Because common English is on my side here.

Is a model from the World Eaters able to take any other mark? No. Is a Sorcerer able to take a Mark of Khorne? No. Therefore, No Mark of Khorne for Sorcerers. It's simple, basic Boolean logic.

It's an AND gate.

Can a sorcerer have a mark of khorne? No (so 0)
Does a World Eater have the Mark of Khorne if it has the <MARK> keyword? Yes.

No AND Yes result in No.

You are thinking "if able to" to mean ALWAYS MUST HAVE IT, but it's actually meaning if you can pick a mark, you have to pick Khorne, not the other 3 or no mark.

If able refers to whether they can take a mark at all
Nothing to do with whether they can take mok.

So what does the "if able" mean? It has to mean something.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If able refers to whether they can take a mark at all
Nothing to do with whether they can take mok.

Do you have a reference for that? Because it doesn't say "If able to take a Mark", it says, "If able to be marked Khorne".

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what does the "if able" mean? It has to mean something.

It means "if they have a <MARK> keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So what does the "if able" mean? It has to mean something.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If able refers to whether they can take a mark at all
Nothing to do with whether they can take mok.

Do you have a reference for that? Because it doesn't say "If able to take a Mark", it says, "If able to be marked Khorne".

The basic English you are lauding. By your logic we could have World Eater Rubric Marines, which is not true because they can't take the Mark of Khorne.

In any case this discussion has run it's course and I believe you are arguing in bad faith. Hopefully we'll get this locked soon enough.

Reference for that? Because that's not what it says.

Edit: Thousand Sons have a set Legion, don't they? That would prevent them from being World Eaters.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Reference for that? Because that's not what it says.

Edit: Thousand Sons have a set Legion, don't they? That would prevent them from being World Eaters.

So you don't have the codex or didn't read it? Rubrics are generic <LEGION> Troops.

I don't have the Codex on me.

And that being the case, then yes, you can have Thousand Sons World Eaters, by RAW. It's incredibly dumb, should not happen, and I would not play against that, but RAW is just that.

Edit: Do you understand the difference between "If you are able to take a Mark, it must be Khorne," and "If you are able to take a Mark of Khorne, you must,"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What definition would you assign to it? Because common English is on my side here.

Is a model from the World Eaters able to take any other mark? No. Is a Sorcerer able to take a Mark of Khorne? No. Therefore, No Mark of Khorne for Sorcerers. It's simple, basic Boolean logic.

It's an AND gate.

Can a sorcerer have a mark of khorne? No (so 0)
Does a World Eater have the Mark of Khorne if it has the <MARK> keyword? Yes.

No AND Yes result in No.

You are thinking "if able to" to mean ALWAYS MUST HAVE IT, but it's actually meaning if you can pick a mark, you have to pick Khorne, not the other 3 or no mark.

You first assertion is wrong. Is a model from the World Eaters able to take any other mark? Sure? Why not? We just know that IF THAT MODEL IS ABLE, it must take the Mark of Khorne. Nothing in that statement tells me that I can't take a different Mark (or no Mark) if the model is unable to take the Mark of Khorne for some reason.

Is a World Eaters Chaos Lord unit able to take the Mark of Khorne? Yes. Therefore, it is required to.
Is a World Eaters Chaos Sorcerer unit able to take the Mark of Khorne? No. Therefore, it is not required to.

The requirement only exists when the World Eaters unit is ABLE to take the Mark of Khorne. The real question is whether or not a Chaos Sorcerer can select the World Eaters keyword. If not, this is a moot issue. I see no restriction preventing a Sorcerer from belonging to the World Eaters Legion. I also see no restriction saying that only units which can select the Mark of Khorne can be given the World Eaters keyword.

Honestly, this doesn't really bother me. The pre-Heresy World Eaters had Librarians. It's not unreasonable to think that a Librarian turned along with the rest of the Chapter and his control of the warp has prevented him from falling to Khorne. He'd likely be unmarked at that point. Hell, I could see Tzeentch marking him and giving him the tools to appear Khornate. Forge that narrative!

My take: It's pretty clear that when the codex says, "All World Eaters units must have the Mark of Khorne, if they are able to do so", it means that if a unit has the <MARK> keyword, then that mark must be designated as KHORNE for that unit to be in the World Eaters. If a unit does not have the <MARK> keyword to begin with, then it can still be in the World Eaters. Sorcerers have the <MARK> keyword, but they cannot designate it as KHORNE. Therefore, they cannot be in the World Eaters.

And really, why would Khorne permit psykers in his pet Legion, even assuming any remained in the Legion after the Council of Nikaea? He usually sics Karanak on psykers.

It's a Chicken or the Egg issue, as it is entirely dependent on the order that you read it in.

If you read it in the order that the unit (Sorcerer) must take a Mark or No Mark, and that Psykers can't be Khorne, and then read that World Eaters must be Khorne if able, then World Eaters can get Khornate Sorcerers. In this way, it's like you're choosing your entire army first, and then choosing the Legion afterwards.

The other way is to read the two rules in reverse, starting with "I am taking a World Eaters Legion" and making selections at that point. In this way, you would first make your army list a World Eaters army, then you start making the selections to include the Sorcerer, but would be unable to do so, as you couldn't select Khorne, which is a requirement for being in the World Eaters detachment. At that point, you have to give up on selecting the unit.

Thankfully, everyone knows the you can't. If you brought this to tournament I was running and said due to a technicality that your Sorcerer could still be a World Eater, even without the Mark of Khorne, then I'd laugh at you and say to fix your list.

Oh yeah. This is not RAI, HIWPI, or something most TOs would allow.

It's RAW, but RAW can be very dumb.

So is everyone ignoring the rule that says "Note that PSYKERS cannot have the KHORNE keyword"? Because all I see are people ignoring that rule and arguing in bad faith.

You cannot have the Mark of Khorne if you're a Psyker. World Eaters must pick the Mark of Khorn "if they are able to". The Sorcerer, being a PSYKER has a special rule saying it "cannot have the KHORNE keyword". Therefore, you cannot pick World Eater because you cannot pick the Mark of Khorne. "If they are able to" does not permit you to ignore all other special rules.