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Forgeworld knights and big bugs have the following rule, relevant portion bolded:

Knight Titan/Titanic Monster:
A XXX can Fall Back in the Movement phase and still shoot and/or charge during its turn, When a XXX Falls Back, it can even move over enemy INFANTRY models, though at the end of its move it must be more than 1" from all enemy units. A XXX can shoot if there are enemy models within 1" of it, as long as all of the enemy models have the INFANTRY keyword. In this case, it can shoot the enemy unit that is within 1" of it or any other visible enemy unit that is within range and more than 1" away from any friendly models. In addition, the XXX can move and fire Heavy weapons without suffering the penalty to its hit rolls. Finally, the XXX only gains a bonus to its save in cover if at least half of the model is obscured from the bearer.

Overwatch states:

Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

When picking a unit to shoot in the shooting phase, you can't pick one with enemies within 1". This rule clearly overrides that.
However when firing overwatch, the Overwatch rule separately states that you can't select a unit to fire if there are enemies within 1".

Would you say the restriction on firing overwatch is the same as the restriction on picking a unit to shoot? Allowing these superheavies to fire overwatch when enemy infantry are within 1"?
Or is the restriction on firing overwatch a separate rule, that would require explicit permission to override?

Hmm, that is an interesting one...definitely something to ask on the community site, however, i would personally err on the side of caution and count them as separate rules until we get a clarification though if you ask an opponent beforehand and agree i cant see the problem with allowing it either. For tournament play i would certainly treat them as separate rules until official clarification.

Actually, having read it again and noticing it does not say "can shoot IN THE SHOOTING PHASE if there are enemy models......." then i can`t see anything preventing the overwatch, after all some of the buff auras that simply state "when attacking" can be used in both shooting and melee as a result

100% separate rules. The Forge World Rules don't apply to overwatch.

As written, they don't apply to Overwatch. This is a definitional issue. Despite the fact that, from a fluff perspective, we think of Overwatch as shooting, it's a separate rule from Shooting.

ForgeWorld's mistake is not capitalizing the 's' in their rule. If it was written:

A XXX can Shoot if there are enemy models within 1" of it, as long as all of the enemy models have the INFANTRY keyword.

Or they could have written "A XXX can Shoot in the Shooting Phase...".

Anyway, the short version is that 'shoot' in the rule is referencing the Shooting phase and not step 3 of the Charge Phase. We're just getting confused because thematically things are 'shooting'.

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules..."

It is a rule that FW knights can make shooting attacks if they are within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't that carry over to Overwatch?

 mrhappyface wrote:
"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules..."

It is a rule that FW knights can make shooting attacks if they are within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't that carry over to Overwatch?

If we really want to nitpick I'd say that since Overwatch only explicitly says it uses the normal rules for shooting thus it can't use special shooting rules in Overwatch, but I don't think anyone adheres to that anywhere.

My take is that the Overwatch rule is borrowing the Shooting phase rules but clearly calls itself out as a separate entity in the first sentence. Since the Forgeworld ability is referring to modifying the Shooting phase and not the thematic act of shooting it doesn't apply to Overwatch. That said it IS grey and they should FAQ it.

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules..."

It is a rule that FW knights can make shooting attacks if they are within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't that carry over to Overwatch?

If we really want to nitpick I'd say that since Overwatch only explicitly says it uses the normal rules for shooting thus it can't use special shooting rules in Overwatch, but I don't think anyone adheres to that anywhere.

My take is that the Overwatch rule is borrowing the Shooting phase rules but clearly calls itself out as a separate entity in the first sentence. Since the Forgeworld ability is referring to modifying the Shooting phase and not the thematic act of shooting it doesn't apply to Overwatch. That said it IS grey and they should FAQ it.

Why is the FW ability referring to modifying the shooting phase? The rule makes no reference to which phase to use it in. Saying that the rule only applies in the shooting phase is making up extra bits to the rule that don't exist to support your arguement.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules..."

It is a rule that FW knights can make shooting attacks if they are within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't that carry over to Overwatch?

If we really want to nitpick I'd say that since Overwatch only explicitly says it uses the normal rules for shooting thus it can't use special shooting rules in Overwatch, but I don't think anyone adheres to that anywhere.

My take is that the Overwatch rule is borrowing the Shooting phase rules but clearly calls itself out as a separate entity in the first sentence. Since the Forgeworld ability is referring to modifying the Shooting phase and not the thematic act of shooting it doesn't apply to Overwatch. That said it IS grey and they should FAQ it.

Why is the FW ability referring to modifying the shooting phase? The rule makes no reference to which phase to use it in. Saying that the rule only applies in the shooting phase is making up extra bits to the rule that don't exist to support your arguement.

Not quite. We actually have to make something up one way or the other.

In the rulebook, there's no such thing as 'shooting' a stand alone concept. We have a 'Shooting Phase' which allows us to pick a unit to 'shoot' with, but the selected model then 'attacks', not 'shoots' ("First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with...Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with" which is followed by the section "Number of Attacks"). Thus, "shoot" gets used in two contexts: a phase and as part of a shooting attack.

Overwatch also ties into this because it specifically only speaks to "shooting attacks" and makes no mention of the phase.

So when Forgeworld says "A XXX can shoot if there are enemy models within 1"" the immediate question, at least to me, is whether Forgeworld meant "shooting attacks" or "shooting phase". You're inferring it meant "shooting attack", but we can't do that without adding. The same is true for 'shooting phase'. See how it reads with both:

A XXX can make a shooting attack if there are enemy models within 1"

A XXX can shoot in the the Shooting phase if there are enemy models within 1"

Now, the Overwatch rules clearly say you only do the former for Overwatches, not the latter:

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...

My personal take is that Forgeworld was attempting to modify the shooting phase of its models and was not intending to make an exception to all shooting attacks.

As I said before, however, it's a big grey area and should be FAQ'd.

If the rules resolve in order, you cannot make overwatch.

The problem to do so is not the wording of shooting, it is the overwatch rule itself:

"Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the attacker can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it"

So you would fail to comply with this first part of the rule that does not even refer to the "shooting attack".

Only If you would comply to this first part (having no models within 1") , you would go further to:

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack etc..."

So no matter if it can "shoot at units when enemy models are within 1" " the rule has nothing to do with overwatch, as you missed the first check that allows you to go to the part of the rule where you would get an exception.

Core Rules:

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

Datacard Rule:


Knight Titan/Titanic Monster:
A XXX can Fall Back in the Movement phase and still shoot and/or charge during its turn, When a XXX Falls Back, it can even move over enemy INFANTRY models, though at the end of its move it must be more than 1" from all enemy units. A XXX can shoot if there are enemy models within 1" of it, as long as all of the enemy models have the INFANTRY keyword. In this case, it can shoot the enemy unit that is within 1" of it or any other visible enemy unit that is within range and more than 1" away from any friendly models. In addition, the XXX can move and fire Heavy weapons without suffering the penalty to its hit rolls. Finally, the XXX only gains a bonus to its save in cover if at least half of the model is obscured from the bearer.


Nothing in the special rule says it specifically applies to shooting in the shooting phase. Additionally, it would be baffling if they had intended to not have it apply to overwatch when its such a combat-centric rule and not say anything about it.

This would mean RAW that the Titan can continue firing overwatch for example against all oncomers, even if a unit was already in combat with it.

The Index rules supersede the core rules. Where there is a conflict with the rule as written and a core rule, the special rule takes precedent.

In this case, a titan could be in CC with a unit already, and 3 other units charge it. The Titan would resolve overwatch on each of the 3 units, which would then be allowed to roll for charge distance, as the combat phase is written.

Per RAW, the Titan cannot fire Overwatch in this instance. Its rule grants it the ability to shoot when within 1" of the infantry models. It does not grant it the ability to Overwatch.

The issue is specifically with the Overwatch rule.

"Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the attacker can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it"

The model is not being selected to shoot, it's being selected to fire Overwatch. The second sentence is quite clear.

"A target can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it"

It's stating that a target CAN fire Overwatch several times but CANNOT fire Overwatch if enemies are within 1" of it.

The Knight's rule does not override this restriction. It only grants it the ability to shoot, which overrides the restriction mentioned in the Shooting Phase area. It would need to specifically grant it the ability to "fire Overwatch" as well for this Knight rule to apply.

Hasn't GW traditionally come down on the "rules that modify how you shoot" affect your behaviour in overwatch side of the argument? Ie. MC firing 2 guns Tau suits firing 2 guns etc.

 Arkaine wrote:
Per RAW, the Titan cannot fire Overwatch in this instance. Its rule grants it the ability to shoot when within 1" of the infantry models. It does not grant it the ability to Overwatch.

The issue is specifically with the Overwatch rule.

"Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the attacker can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it"

The model is not being selected to shoot, it's being selected to fire Overwatch. The second sentence is quite clear.

"A target can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it"

It's stating that a target CAN fire Overwatch several times but CANNOT fire Overwatch if enemies are within 1" of it.

The Knight's rule does not override this restriction. It only grants it the ability to shoot, which overrides the restriction mentioned in the Shooting Phase area. It would need to specifically grant it the ability to "fire Overwatch" as well for this Knight rule to apply.

I would say what was presented in the post before yours shows that you can Overwatch.

""Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

". A XXX can shoot if there are enemy models within 1" of it, as long as all of the enemy models have the INFANTRY keyword. In this case, it can shoot the enemy unit that is within 1" of it or any other visible enemy unit that is within range and more than 1" away from any friendly models. "

So, if it's only infantry within 1" of you, you could fire Overwatch since you are given an exemption to not being able to fire because of having models within 1". If there are enemy models that don't have the INFANTRY keyoword within 1", then you wouldn't since you've been given permission to fire only if it's infantry that close to you. It means that if you don't want that knight firing overwatch at all your units coming in, send up something that isn't INFANTRY first.

 doctortom wrote:

I would say what was presented in the post before yours shows that you can Overwatch.

""Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch. It explains how to calculate the effect of it. It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting nor does being granted permission to shoot grant permission to Overwatch. As it's even stated within that text, buffing your models with +1 to hit or granting them double fire in the Shooting Phase does not carry over to Overwatch because modifiers are disallowed and it does not actually occur in the shooting phase. It's distinct enough with its own rules, wording, and exceptions that it's a completely different term.

 doctortom wrote:
So, if it's only infantry within 1" of you, you could fire Overwatch since you are given an exemption to not being able to fire because of having models within 1". If there are enemy models that don't have the INFANTRY keyoword within 1", then you wouldn't since you've been given permission to fire only if it's infantry that close to you. It means that if you don't want that knight firing overwatch at all your units coming in, send up something that isn't INFANTRY first.

No again, you are not being given an exemption to fire Overwatch, you're being given an exemption to shoot. These are not the same things and I'll disagree with anyone who claims they are. You're merely using a looser interpretation of the rules to justify equating shooting with firing Overwatch even though the two even carry distinctly separate rules and exceptions along with explicitly worded differences in how they are permitted. If they wanted to equate Shooting and Overwatch, then the 1" rule that applies to shooting would obviously already apply to Overwatch. Yet they made a point to establish the rule twice as these are distinctly separate ideas.

You can play it HYWPI but RAW I don't find it acceptable.

" It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting "

Except that Overwatch even says its identical to shooting:

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

Additionally, Codex rules supersede the BRB

 Arkaine wrote:
I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch. It explains how to calculate the effect of it. It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting nor does being granted permission to shoot grant permission to Overwatch. As it's even stated within that text, buffing your models with +1 to hit or granting them double fire in the Shooting Phase does not carry over to Overwatch because modifiers are disallowed and it does not actually occur in the shooting phase. It's distinct enough with its own rules, wording, and exceptions that it's a completely different term.

Surely that's +1 in favour of the Knight being able to fire Overwatch when within an 1" of an enemy model? Overwatch has to specify that certain things from the shooting phase are not in effect in overwatch: modifiers, this would mean that all other things that affect the shooting phase affect Overwatch since Overwatch had to specify which things from the shooting phase don't affect it.

You can play it HYWPI but RAW I find it acceptable.

I've been playing the same way with baneblade. Besides sponsons. If anything charges while in combat. It can overwatch as normal.

But maybe Im wrong.

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I would say what was presented in the post before yours shows that you can Overwatch.

""Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch.

"and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is ...always required" seems like it would apply all the time, not just for resolving.

 Arkaine wrote:
It explains how to calculate the effect of it. It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting nor does being granted permission to shoot grant permission to Overwatch.

Overwatch follows the rules for normal shooting except for what is noted in the Overwatch section. The noted exceptions are what make it not identical to shooting. Any rules that would override the normal shooting rules, such as being able to shoot when an enemy is within 1" of you, would also apply. to Overwatch.

 Overheal wrote:
" It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting "

Except that Overwatch even says its identical to shooting:

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

Additionally, Codex rules supersede the BRB

Read what you wrote and read what I wrote. These do not say the same things. It does not say it's identical to shooting, and since you didn't quote me correctly, I already said it's only comparable for resolving Overwatch.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch. It explains how to calculate the effect of it. It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting nor does being granted permission to shoot grant permission to Overwatch. As it's even stated within that text, buffing your models with +1 to hit or granting them double fire in the Shooting Phase does not carry over to Overwatch because modifiers are disallowed and it does not actually occur in the shooting phase. It's distinct enough with its own rules, wording, and exceptions that it's a completely different term.

Surely that's +1 in favour of the Knight being able to fire Overwatch when within an 1" of an enemy model? Overwatch has to specify that certain things from the shooting phase are not in effect in overwatch: modifiers, this would mean that all other things that affect the shooting phase affect Overwatch since Overwatch had to specify which things from the shooting phase don't affect it.

You can play it HYWPI but RAW I find it acceptable.

Surely not as you didn't quote what I said in the second half, which counters this claim that Overwatch is comparable. The fact that it has to specifically discourage 1" models separately from Shooting attacks supports the idea that it's different from Shooting attacks. Additionally, in all instances in the book it's referred to as "fire Overwatch" rather than "shoot" or "shoot Overwatch" and resolving the action as shooting functions does not PERMIT the action in the first place. You argued this very same logic that supported Sorcerers not being able to be World Eaters simply because they cannot take a mark of Khorne. One does not gain permission for being treated as a shooting attack simply because it uses the resolution of one. Similarly, Warp Time allows units to move during the psychic phases as though it were the Movement phase yet this does not get treated as movement does. Had it been, the unit could not have moved any further after deep striking at all (which as we know, GW disagrees with).

Again, as I said before, you can play it HYWPI but RAW I find it unacceptable.

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I would say what was presented in the post before yours shows that you can Overwatch.

""Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch.

"and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is ...always required" seems like it would apply all the time, not just for resolving.

Again you cut off the context of the same sentence to isolate a clause that refers back to how Overwatch is resolved. It does not work that way. Lacking any context without referring to the resolution clause does not open this up to being a separate rule but a conjunction that is meaningless without the first and that similar to this very sentence connects two clauses, the second of which results from the first.

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
It explains how to calculate the effect of it. It does not mean that Overwatch is identical to shooting nor does being granted permission to shoot grant permission to Overwatch.

Overwatch follows the rules for normal shooting except for what is noted in the Overwatch section. The noted exceptions are what make it not identical to shooting. Any rules that would override the normal shooting rules, such as being able to shoot when an enemy is within 1" of you, would also apply. to Overwatch.

Again, that's false, Overwatch does not follow the rules for normal shooting unless you resolving it. In fact, the second clause regarding the normal rules mention nothing of shooting to begin with and are without context otherwise.

If you're merely going to insist otherwise and repeat what's already been said that this becomes an irresolvable HYWPI issue and I'm done arguing with your point of view.

BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

Ironically though everyone could go round, and round because GW writes crummy rules. Example you only hit on a 6 in overwatch regardless of modifiers. Doesn't say natural 6 just says 6, and it doesn't say it ignores modifiers.

So going by GW's example where plasma cannons with a -3 to hit will overheat on a 4. Then a model with +1 to hit will actually hit in overwatch on a 5+. Because that is a 6.
Similarly if a dreadnaught pops smoke and charges unless you have +1 to hit you cannot hit him. Because you need a 6 to hit, and if you roll a 6 he's -1 to hit becomes a 5 and you miss.

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

Ironically though everyone could go round, and round because GW writes crummy rules. Example you only hit on a 6 in overwatch regardless of modifiers. Doesn't say natural 6 just says 6, and it doesn't say it ignores modifiers.

So going by GW's example where plasma cannons with a -3 to hit will overheat on a 4. Then a model with +1 to hit will actually hit in overwatch on a 5+. Because that is a 6.
Similarly if a dreadnaught pops smoke and charges unless you have +1 to hit you cannot hit him. Because you need a 6 to hit, and if you roll a 6 he's -1 to hit becomes a 5 and you miss.

It says "irrespective of modifiers". Which can mean "ignoring". Overwatch rule is fine as written and your interpretation above isn't correct, I'm afraid.

Tesla with a +1 to hit will trigger on an Overwatch of 5 RAW, but normal shooting wont.

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I would say what was presented in the post before yours shows that you can Overwatch.

""Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

I would say not. That comes afterwards and applies to the RESOLUTION of Overwatch.

"and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is ...always required" seems like it would apply all the time, not just for resolving.

Again you cut off the context of the same sentence to isolate a clause that refers back to how Overwatch is resolved. It does not work that way. Lacking any context without referring to the resolution clause does not open this up to being a separate rule but a conjunction that is meaningless without the first and that similar to this very sentence connects two clauses, the second of which results from the first.

It's a compound sentence with the "and" - the part after the "and" does not have to be exclusive to the first part of the sentence. Overwatch using all the rules of normal shooting except for what they specify otherwise is perfectly fine. Permission to fire when enemy models are within 1" applies any time for the unit with that special rule gets to shoot. As an advanced index rule, it overrides the basic rule you are trying to cite. There would have to be an explicit statement saying that the prohibition about firing overwatch when enemy models are within 1" also applies to models that could normally fire when models are within 1". There is no such explicit statement, so the advanced rule (the Wraithknight getting to fire wihen enemy models are within 1") overrides the basic rule for Overwatch.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

Ironically though everyone could go round, and round because GW writes crummy rules. Example you only hit on a 6 in overwatch regardless of modifiers. Doesn't say natural 6 just says 6, and it doesn't say it ignores modifiers.

So going by GW's example where plasma cannons with a -3 to hit will overheat on a 4. Then a model with +1 to hit will actually hit in overwatch on a 5+. Because that is a 6.
Similarly if a dreadnaught pops smoke and charges unless you have +1 to hit you cannot hit him. Because you need a 6 to hit, and if you roll a 6 he's -1 to hit becomes a 5 and you miss.

It says "irrespective of modifiers". Which can mean "ignoring". Overwatch rule is fine as written and your interpretation above isn't correct, I'm afraid.

The ability to shoot or a prohibition to shoot is most certainly not a modifier. Modifiers are things applied when you do shoot.

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

No one said BRB rules override the codex. They said the codex rule does not override the BRB rule in question. It overrides a different rule, one pertaining to Shooting.

I feel like this circular argument is exactly like the Berzerker pages where people claim a single Codex entry overwrites TWO index entries, and now they are claiming a single Codex entry overwrites TWO rulebook entries. This is not how the world works unless these entries say they overwrite both.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Ironically though everyone could go round, and round because GW writes crummy rules. Example you only hit on a 6 in overwatch regardless of modifiers. Doesn't say natural 6 just says 6, and it doesn't say it ignores modifiers.

Actually, natural 6 is the way it is because of the no modifiers bit, and the fact that it's written as a 6, which GW even describes in the FAQ as being an exact roll. When they want to say any number 6 or higher, they write it as 6+ such as for Death to the False Emperor (which generates additional attacks on a 6+).

Wagguy80 wrote:
So going by GW's example where plasma cannons with a -3 to hit will overheat on a 4. Then a model with +1 to hit will actually hit in overwatch on a 5+. Because that is a 6. Similarly if a dreadnaught pops smoke and charges unless you have +1 to hit you cannot hit him. Because you need a 6 to hit, and if you roll a 6 he's -1 to hit becomes a 5 and you miss.

Denied, you do not Overwatch on a 5+ even under your logic. By your logic, if modifiers applied, then you would HIT on 5 and MISS on a 6 because the +1 would make it a 7. As we already know, there are abilities in the game that only activate on the roll of a 7+ so it's not capped at 6.

@doctortom - Check out the other uses of the word 'and' as a conjuction on Google, and read what I wrote above concerning rule overwrites. It does not work the way you claim and you have no permission to fire Overwatch within 1" of infantry, only permission to Shoot within 1" of infantry. But seeing how we are literally reading the exact same message and you are now repeating the same exact responses, we cannot resolve this without new information or a different perspective. You are reading it one way and I'm reading it another and both are valid readings according to English. Also, the guy you quoted said nothing about the ability to shoot being a modifier, he was replying to the above poster who mistakenly applied actual modifiers to Overwatch without seeing the fault in it.

 Arkaine wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

No one said BRB rules override the codex. They said the codex rule does not override the BRB rule in question. It overrides a different rule, one pertaining to Shooting.

Rules which we are told by the Overwatch rules also apply to firing Overwatch.

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

No one said BRB rules override the codex. They said the codex rule does not override the BRB rule in question. It overrides a different rule, one pertaining to Shooting.

Rules which we are told by the Overwatch rules also apply to firing Overwatch.

No, they don't, and I've explained why already. I won't be repeating this again so if you have nothing new to add... then I guess we're not going to agree here.

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

No one said BRB rules override the codex. They said the codex rule does not override the BRB rule in question. It overrides a different rule, one pertaining to Shooting.

Rules which we are told by the Overwatch rules also apply to firing Overwatch.

No, they don't, and I've explained why already. I won't be repeating this again so if you have nothing new to add... then I guess we're not going to agree here.

Yes they do and we've all explained several times why they do, we won't be repeating the same arguements again if you won't listen.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
BRB rules do not override Index, Codex, or Forge World rules. So it can fire overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.

No one said BRB rules override the codex. They said the codex rule does not override the BRB rule in question. It overrides a different rule, one pertaining to Shooting.

Rules which we are told by the Overwatch rules also apply to firing Overwatch.

No, they don't, and I've explained why already. I won't be repeating this again so if you have nothing new to add... then I guess we're not going to agree here.

Yes they do and we've all explained several times why they do, we won't be repeating the same arguements again if you won't listen.

Why are you targeting me? And even using the collectivism as though you're correct? Several people in this thread have said the same thing I have. If you won't listen, then we're at an impasse.

I've completely lost track of what we are yelling about.

Overwatch is resolved exactly like shooting but in the Charge Phase in response to declared charges and only ever hits on a 6+ regardless of modifiers.

And I wanted to be sure about this so I double-checked with the YMDC community on a side-matter just for clarification,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736649.page


So, if Markerlights work during overwatch (but not modifiers to-hit) and so that you ignore cover and re-roll 1's, for instance, why are those rules allowed to apply to Overwatch and not Knight Titan/Titanic Monster?

Overwatch doesn't say "A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it regardless of any other abilities or modifiers" now does it? After all, we just assume that the firer in Overwatch needs line of sight but it's never implied? And what about flamers? Flamers automatically hit their target. Nobody would dispute AFAIK that flamers do not automatically hit in Overwatch. Why would the special rule for this weapon/shooting be treated differently than Knight Titan's ability to shoot with an enemy within 1" of it?

tl;dr the Knight can fire Overwatch even if he is within 1" of an enemy already.

a roll of six is required to hit in overwatch. No modifiers may be applied to this roll.

No to-hit roll is required since flamer by definition "always hit their target". It does not matter what they need to roll to hit, because they do not roll to hit. They hit automatically.