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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

In my ever ongoing journey into creating a particular army list / build / conversion, I have been going back and forth between the transport choices to get my Bullgryn into the fray. For a while the Chimera seemed the ideal choice, as I could fit either 4 Bullgryn or 3+ some support characters, and it's pretty survivable for a metal bawks.

But I'm now considering the merits (and fun conversion choices) of my first ever flyers. And a Valkyrie seems like an idea choice (or a vendetta, but that's a discussion for another day).

But I have a feeling that fielding just a single flyer is not a good idea... even though I mostly just want it to get the Bullgryn to their target, it would be nice if it then survived long enough to do a bit of damage on the side. So I was thinking of pairing it up with a Vulture gunship, to give an extra target for the enemy to worry about...

Even so, just two flyers seems like slim pickings, but I'm not honestly sure on how survivable these flying bawkses are these days. Would a lone valkyrie (with other threatening ground targets still drawing some fire obviously) be a waste of points? Would a Valk/Vult combo still not be enough?

The rest of the list is made up of some artillery, some fast charging units, and a small gunline, so there are some other threats on the board (if that helps, or even makes a difference)

I know this is probably very subjective too, but I just wanted some thoughts from people who use the models before I make a decision. If it's not worth it, I will probably just go back to my (much cheaper) chimera option!
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean, the most threatening thing is going to get shot. If you move a Valkyrie loaded with Bullgryn right in front of my army, and I'm not playing something that can just pick up and move away, and it'd be really bad for me if the Bullgryn come out and charge, then the Valkyrie is getting shot no matter how many Vultures you have.

The main thing you want to do is distribute threat evenly. If you have one thing that's going to hurt me a lot relative to how durable it is, and then a bunch of other things that will hurt me less relative to their durability, I'm shooting the scary and fragile thing. Even if all of your stuff is roughly equally scary, I'm obviously still shooting something, but at least this way you're not paying for offense and defense you're not getting use out of.

I would say that if you go with a Valkyrie transport, you might as well go with fairly kitted-out Vultures and Vendettas. The cheap gatling cannon Vulture has a place, and you may want one, but it's not going to draw fire from the Valkyrie. A Vendetta might. Though, again, if I'm shooting your Vendetta it's because I think it's more important to kill the Vendetta, so you're not aiming to just give me something that I want to shoot at even more than the Valkyrie. You're aiming to make me make a hard choice, where I feel like I don't have a clear target priority.

As for how survivable they are: this kind of flyer is about as survivable as a Land Raider. It depends what you're shooting at it, of course. -1 to hit is not a huge deal for BS3+ shooting, and is more-or-less compensated for by the lower toughness and wounds and worse save. They can go down pretty quickly if someone can bring melta guns to bear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 02:17:53


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

Niiru wrote:
In my ever ongoing journey into creating a particular army list / build / conversion, I have been going back and forth between the transport choices to get my Bullgryn into the fray. For a while the Chimera seemed the ideal choice, as I could fit either 4 Bullgryn or 3+ some support characters, and it's pretty survivable for a metal bawks.

But I'm now considering the merits (and fun conversion choices) of my first ever flyers. And a Valkyrie seems like an idea choice (or a vendetta, but that's a discussion for another day).

But I have a feeling that fielding just a single flyer is not a good idea... even though I mostly just want it to get the Bullgryn to their target, it would be nice if it then survived long enough to do a bit of damage on the side. So I was thinking of pairing it up with a Vulture gunship, to give an extra target for the enemy to worry about...

Even so, just two flyers seems like slim pickings, but I'm not honestly sure on how survivable these flying bawkses are these days. Would a lone valkyrie (with other threatening ground targets still drawing some fire obviously) be a waste of points? Would a Valk/Vult combo still not be enough?

The rest of the list is made up of some artillery, some fast charging units, and a small gunline, so there are some other threats on the board (if that helps, or even makes a difference)

I know this is probably very subjective too, but I just wanted some thoughts from people who use the models before I make a decision. If it's not worth it, I will probably just go back to my (much cheaper) chimera option!


The Valkyrie is tough, but not very threatening. A lot of people are just going to ignore it, especially once it drops the bullgryns. It is however, pretty expensive, especially once you toss in Bullgryns. If someone shoots it, they shoot it. You still have the rest of your army. Don't focus your tactics too much on any one portion of your army.

This is 8th edition, everything dies.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 argonak wrote:
Niiru wrote:
In my ever ongoing journey into creating a particular army list / build / conversion, I have been going back and forth between the transport choices to get my Bullgryn into the fray. For a while the Chimera seemed the ideal choice, as I could fit either 4 Bullgryn or 3+ some support characters, and it's pretty survivable for a metal bawks.

But I'm now considering the merits (and fun conversion choices) of my first ever flyers. And a Valkyrie seems like an idea choice (or a vendetta, but that's a discussion for another day).

But I have a feeling that fielding just a single flyer is not a good idea... even though I mostly just want it to get the Bullgryn to their target, it would be nice if it then survived long enough to do a bit of damage on the side. So I was thinking of pairing it up with a Vulture gunship, to give an extra target for the enemy to worry about...

Even so, just two flyers seems like slim pickings, but I'm not honestly sure on how survivable these flying bawkses are these days. Would a lone valkyrie (with other threatening ground targets still drawing some fire obviously) be a waste of points? Would a Valk/Vult combo still not be enough?

The rest of the list is made up of some artillery, some fast charging units, and a small gunline, so there are some other threats on the board (if that helps, or even makes a difference)

I know this is probably very subjective too, but I just wanted some thoughts from people who use the models before I make a decision. If it's not worth it, I will probably just go back to my (much cheaper) chimera option!


The Valkyrie is tough, but not very threatening. A lot of people are just going to ignore it, especially once it drops the bullgryns. It is however, pretty expensive, especially once you toss in Bullgryns. If someone shoots it, they shoot it. You still have the rest of your army. Don't focus your tactics too much on any one portion of your army.

This is 8th edition, everything dies.


While I know this to be true, there is also the matter of things being cost effective. I mean, I could just as easily spend some more points and use a Vendetta instead, which is also very tempting as even after dropping off the Bullgryns I would be left with 6 lascannons I could set up hovering somewhere. More threatening, but also even more expensive.

At the end of the day I know it's all about pros and cons. I just happened to have a fun conversion idea for a flyer, and so I wanted to find a way to actually put a flyer into my list without it being a huge weakness haha.

The choice is between a Valk, a Vendetta, or a Vulture.
For the price of the Vendetta, I could field a Vulture + a Chimera (well, there's like 30 points difference.) So transport wouldn't be an issue overall. Slower transport though.
For the price of the Vendetta, I could field a Valkyrie + ...not sure, I'd have 52 points to spend. Something with extra guns on it.
Or Vendetta does it all, one model for one price, which is a bit of an eggs in basket situation.

Edit: On original topic of two flyers, I don't think I can find points room for two vendettas. Would be a quarter of my list. Two valks, or a valk and a vulture, I could squeeze in I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 04:40:59


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Warbiker




Somewhere near Hamburg

As an owner of 2 valks, 2 vultures, 2 avengers and a vendetta and previous owner of an additional valk and vendetta i can tell you one thing:

DONT ever field more than one Vendetta. And even one ist too much below 2k Points. Those 6 lascannons may look scary but if you use them as transports they'll be at bs5+ most of the time. Which sucks. They're just too expensive for that. Most of the time you're better off with normal valks kitted out with multilaser, rocket pods and heavy bolters. While still very inferior to gatling vultures they are the go-to aerial transports.
Other than that valks pretty much guarantee a first turn charge and they are pretty tough. Bringing down 2 imperial flyers in one turn requires lucky rolls and all the heavy weapons one can bring at 1,5k points if you shield them to prevent melta-shocktroops from instagibbing them at turn one your flyers should be safe. Regardless which ones you choose. They are pretty much equally tough.

Valkyries are in a pretty bad shape in this edition. They are VERY expensive for the firepower they can bring. I've had too many occasions where my Vendettas wont hit a single shot. At least Valks with the kit I described have 9+2w6 shots a turn. Their Output is somewhat acceptable. The only thing they've got going for them is the Transport capacity and the grav chute Insertion Special rule which is great for raining down Bullgryns and Melta/flamersquads. If they weren't so ugly and expensive (moneywise) I'd scrap all of my valks and switch them out for Arvus Lighters which are pretty much flying Chimeras for a fraction of the points of a Valk.

Vultures however are insanely powerful. At 160 Points for 43 S5 shots they wreck face. Autoinclude for all of my lists! 2 Of them are scary as hell.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/17 19:18:20


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





I mean, if your heart is set of Bullgryns...

8 Bullgryn dropping from 2 Valkyries will, make their charge, which I guess is an improvement over 8 Bullgryn riding in Chimerae, but I won't call them impressive.


I am not impressed with any of the Valkyrie or Vendetta weapon options. The Vulture is good, but it won't carry Bullgryn. So, the question is, would mounting your Bullgryn in Valkyries or Vendettas be worth more than spending the points on other things, like Manticores or additional Bullgryn.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I mean, if your heart is set of Bullgryns...

8 Bullgryn dropping from 2 Valkyries will, make their charge, which I guess is an improvement over 8 Bullgryn riding in Chimerae, but I won't call them impressive.


I am not impressed with any of the Valkyrie or Vendetta weapon options. The Vulture is good, but it won't carry Bullgryn. So, the question is, would mounting your Bullgryn in Valkyries or Vendettas be worth more than spending the points on other things, like Manticores or additional Bullgryn.


Yeh, I'm considering the merits of running Vultures and having the bullgryn on foot. They'd be good gunline protectors I guess, and without worrying about transport capacity I can bump them up to 4 models and still have a Priest and Psyker nearby. Though the idea of dropping a squad of bullgryn behind enemy lines turn 1 did appeal haha
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Grav-chutes! Transport them all day long. I can pretty much guarantee your opponent won't have planned for it.

Someone did it to me, and it took me by surprise. In conjunction with the rest of his list, it worked really well.

These guys can do a fantastic job messing up a turn or two of tanks firing. That's enough to turn a game.

You won't see this strategy at the LVO but honestly I don't think many people here are qualified to give you serious competitive advice anyway

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Marmatag wrote:
Grav-chutes! Transport them all day long. I can pretty much guarantee your opponent won't have planned for it.

Someone did it to me, and it took me by surprise. In conjunction with the rest of his list, it worked really well.

These guys can do a fantastic job messing up a turn or two of tanks firing. That's enough to turn a game.

You won't see this strategy at the LVO but honestly I don't think many people here are qualified to give you serious competitive advice anyway



While I think it would be fun, I think I'd only end up with one Valk to use as a transport, and I'm not sure how effective it would really be for the points I'd be laying out. Still tempting to do it for the hell of it though.

My two conversions will be different sizes, one bigger than the other, so it would either need to be two different gunships, or one transport and one gunship. Did consider a SM one, like the Fire Raptor or Storm Eagle.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Since you only want the valks as an Ogryn delivery system then why not use a pair of Arvus lighters?

Plus you get cool guy points for pulling out a pair of models that most people have never seen in the flesh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 14:44:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Since you only want the valks as an Ogryn delivery system then why not use a pair of Arvus lighters?

Plus you get cool guy points for pulling out a pair of models that most people have never seen in the flesh.


If that's the chimera-sized transport that has no weapons on it, then they don't carry Ogryn. Unfortunately.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Niiru wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Since you only want the valks as an Ogryn delivery system then why not use a pair of Arvus lighters?

Plus you get cool guy points for pulling out a pair of models that most people have never seen in the flesh.


If that's the chimera-sized transport that has no weapons on it, then they don't carry Ogryn. Unfortunately.


And... he's right. That blows.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Since you only want the valks as an Ogryn delivery system then why not use a pair of Arvus lighters?

Plus you get cool guy points for pulling out a pair of models that most people have never seen in the flesh.


If that's the chimera-sized transport that has no weapons on it, then they don't carry Ogryn. Unfortunately.


And... he's right. That blows.


I'd almost be tempted by it otherwise, even though it has no weapons. I *think* you can still ram it into units... not sure about that. But yeh, not too useful unfortunately.
   
 
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