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Unintentional pun aside, I don't see the point of reinforcement points (RP for my writings sake) in many cases. For summoning I basically see it as a "deep strike tax" of sorts. You are most likely always going to use them in order to summon in a unit of daemons that you don't want to footslog up the battlefield, and that's fine. You pay for the units you add, makes sense.

However, for other cases I don't see why you would ever pay for a unit in RP instead of ordinary points. Take Magnus for example; his Blade of Magnus can horrifically flesh-change a Character into a Chaos Spawn if killed in melee. I think this is an awesome, fluffy and fun ability that I will never use. Why? Because why would I ever set aside points for an ability that might not see play? If I need to set aside points, I might as well just purchase the model(s) normally and have full control of them from turn 1. If I set the RP aside, and don't ever actually kill a character with the ability, then those are just wasted points. All this also applies to the Bolt of Change that Tzeentch daemons get.

Same thing with Pink Horrors. Why would I set aside points for their Split ability, when I could just buy those Blue Horrors separately and use them all game, instead of waiting until the Pink Horrors start taking casualities?

If RP aren't being used for things like "healing" a squad of Termagants for Tyranids or Scarab Swarms for Necrons, why is it so for these above examples? Sure, you are adding a new unit, yes, but if you "heal" a termagant squad up from 1 model remaining to full squad size, isn't that basically the same thing? If the Split ability would just add the Blue/Brimstone horrors to the unit instead of creating a new one, then would it not cost RP anymore?

I just find the whole system inconsistent, and I am having a hard time finding any reason why you would ever pay for these examples using RP instead of regular points. Thoughts?

Split does have a use in the sense that it allows you to essentially stack horrors on top of each other; the point of the unit is to be trash that screens for more important models, so theoretically a constantly splitting unit of horrors just ensures that character you really don't want targeted will not get targeted. Now I say all this despite believing that it's not worth the cost of paying for the pinks, but hey, I at least understand where they were coming from.

Things like the Blade of Magnus I agree are pretty silly; it makes me feel like they don't want the ability to be used in matched play, but if that was the case they should have come out and said that it's just a fluffy thing intended for narrative play.

You said it yourself; the difference is returning models to an existing unit (which has it's own cap), versus adding an entirely new set of models/units onto the board.

Plus, this restriction is only in matched play - in Open/Narrative, all of those units you're creating are free; which can lead to significantly more troops on your side than the enemies.

As far as paying points for potential reinforcements? It's probably not worth it since it's not reliable - but I think there was a BAO list that did use the pink/blue horrors spawning rules; I think it did ok.

Reinforcement points, what's the point?
Reinforcements!

fe40k wrote:
You said it yourself; the difference is returning models to an existing unit (which has it's own cap), versus adding an entirely new set of models/units onto the board.

Plus, this restriction is only in matched play - in Open/Narrative, all of those units you're creating are free; which can lead to significantly more troops on your side than the enemies.

As far as paying points for potential reinforcements? It's probably not worth it since it's not reliable - but I think there was a BAO list that did use the pink/blue horrors spawning rules; I think it did ok.

My point is I don't really see a difference in adding a new unit and "healing" an already existing one. You are still getting free models, so why should those be exempt from paying RP? Since you can (in multiple turn probably though) return a unit from 1 model left back to full strength, I don't really see the difference.

Also, matched play is in my eye the only thing that really matters. Anyone can make any rule they want for any game, without needing an "official" way of playing. Open play has always existed in 40k, anyone could always play whatever they wanted with their friends. Matched play is what will be used in all tournaments and any serious match, so that's what I go after.

Like Arachnofiend says, it almost feels like abilities like Blade of Magnus was not meant for matched play at all, which is sad.

Reanimating models cant jump across the board wherever they want like summoned demons can (to an extent). They are restricted to the unit they came from.

Magnus kills something at x point on the board, now you get another unit in your army. This unit didnt take up a detachment slot nor did it add to your units your deploying (to reduce your chance of going first by increasing your drops). Additionally, you've already literally paid for units that heal, in the initial cost/negatives I've already stated, while you have't for summoned/reinforced units.

Summoned Daemons I have stated from the start that I get, it's when adding a new unit due to a special rule that I think is silly.

I buy the argument that you get a new unit that didn't take up a detachment slot though, and going first etc. These are good points, but I don't think they make up for the cost.

How have you paid for healed models? If you have a 10 man Termagant unit, you pay for 10 models. If 9 die, and you heal them back up you get 9 free models. Sure, they take up a detachment slot, but I wouldn't say that's a fair cost compared to acutally having to put points aside for them, as is the case for the Chaos Spawn or Horrors.

I would have preferred if the Split ability worked like Reanimation protocols, i.e you get a chance for the Horror to split, and then it gets added to the unit (not create a new one). Right now I would never pay the points for these, and I haven't really met anyone who disagrees. Same for Magnus and Bolt of Change.

Reinforcements points are made out of balancing reasons. That way summoning/spawning armies don´t get a points advantage.
You are not forced to hold some points for reinforcements back.
But if you want all advantages (like turning slain enemies in own units of some kind) then of course you have to pay for it.

So with Magnus it is best as it is. You are free to decide if you going for a chaos spawn hunt with him and thus reserving points.
Or drop that and use that points on other things.

Yes i am with you that RP should also be needed for "healing" single models not just replacing units.
With that in mind Necron Reinforcement Protocols is the most OP thing in 8th edition. Yes i know the counter is focus fire, but still sometimes your dice rebel and won´t let you kill the last of the 20 warriors, and next turn are all back.

If we follow this logic then also healing wounds to a model should cost points, otherwise it is an "unfair" advantage, who cares if your models already paid the cost for that healing!
Then while at it we should make it so every time Robby G allows a reroll you pay points, otherwise he is handing out an unfair advantage!

Sillyness aside, the only thing that matters is "Do i have already paid points for that ability?"

Apothecaries do
Tervigons do
Necrons do
Magnus doesn't
Horrors don't
Any kind of summoning doesn't

Why do we have those distinctions? Easy, because there are cases where you can more or less have an estimated impact of the ability in a match and calculate a point cost accordingly, and cases like the summoning where this is impossible, so you don't pay anything upfront, but pay when you use it.

The disction is NOT in generating or not a new unit, the chaos stratagems can generate a demon prince and it doesn't cost any point.

Oh, I don't disagree that RP is a good thing, I do think it is. However, in these cases I fail to see why you would ever go for that choice.

Magnus is the most glaring example. If you decide to put the RP aside, you are sort of obligated to try to get that Chaos Spawn summoned, or it will be a waste of points. There might be a point in the game when Magnus is very hurt and need to be a bit more passive in the late game, but maybe you still haven't gotten that Chaos Spawn yet, and never will. Then those are wasted points.

So my point is, why would i ever use RP instead of regular points if I really want that Chaos Spawn? If it doesn't matter to me, of course I will just not pay for it at all, but why would you ever chose to use RP instead of regular points? That's my question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
If we follow this logic then also healing wounds to a model should cost points, otherwise it is an "unfair" advantage, who cares if your models already paid the cost for that healing!
Then while at it we should make it so every time Robby G allows a reroll you pay points, otherwise he is handing out an unfair advantage!

Sillyness aside, the only thing that matters is "Do i have already paid points for that ability?"

Apothecaries do
Tervigons do
Necrons do
Magnus doesn't
Horrors don't
Any kind of summoning doesn't

Why do we have those distinctions? Easy, because there are cases where you can more or less have an estimated impact of the ability in a match and calculate a point cost accordingly, and cases like the summoning where this is impossible, so you don't pay anything upfront, but pay when you use it.

The disction is NOT in generating or not a new unit, the chaos stratagems can generate a demon prince and it doesn't cost any point.

Are you seriously saying that a Tervigons point cost has any healed Termagants worked into it? Don't be silly. A Tervigon can theoretically heal hundreds of points worth of Termagants. They should be much more expensive if that was the case, same thing with Necrons.

Why wouldn't Magnus fall into this category? Since you say it's not about the summoned thing being a new unit or not, then surely those one or two Chaos Spawn that Magnus will summon should be part of his cost.

One thing for daemons for csm is that you can take them and not break your legion trait if they are renforcements.

Also as i understand it yo just set aside pts, so you can effectively summon 'anything' ok it involves carting a case full of every unit but its a massive difference than simply buying a specific unit.

With the horrors thing you have these considerations:
1. You don't have to summon the replacements and if you are in combat and using your horrors as a tarpit (esp with the changeling) it can be a right PITA for the opponent. Yes they can leave combat but i'v seen it work in a BR as a mass of horrors start sucking in units.
2. Its still one Killpoint in missions instead of two or more if you buy the replacements separately
3. With LD being a issue for daemons say you loose 4 horrors from shooting from a 10 horror unit, you add in 8 blue horrors you then take a ld test say you roll bad and get a 6, 6+4-7 = 3, you can remove 3 blue horrors instead of 3 more 'better' pink ones.

 Latro_ wrote:
One thing for daemons for csm is that you can take them and not break your legion trait if they are renforcements.

Also as i understand it yo just set aside pts, so you can effectively summon 'anything' ok it involves carting a case full of every unit but its a massive difference than simply buying a specific unit.

With the horrors thing you have these considerations:
1. You don't have to summon the replacements and if you are in combat and using your horrors as a tarpit (esp with the changeling) it can be a right PITA for the opponent.
2. Its still one Killpoint in missions instead of two or more if you buy the replacements separately
3. With LD being a issue for daemons say you loose 4 horrors from shooting from a 10 horror unit, you add in 8 blue horrors you then take a ld test say you roll bad and get a 6, 6+4-7 = 3, you can remove 3 blue horrors instead of 3 more 'better' pink ones.

The versatility is good for RP, that can't be denied. Even if I planned on summoning a unit of Horrors, maybe halfway through the game I notice I should summon a different unit. Sure, that is a valid point, but again; I haven't complained about this when talking about summoning Daemons using a psychic power. I think that is fine the way it is.

1. Sure, but those Blue Horrors could be on the table from turn 1 and also shoot stuff before tarpitting (which really isn't a thing anymore, is it?).
2. Are killpoints counted that way? I would assume that if you kill a summoned unit, you still get a killpoint.
3. I don't think this works. Since the Blue Horrors make a new unit when the Pink Horrors split, the Pink Horror unit would still take the morale check and risk losing more models. If you added the Blue Horrors to the unit, that would be one thing, but then they probably wouldn't cost RP either, just like with Termagants.

All these are good points, if they work, but I am still not convinced that using the RP to pay for the models are more effective in any way than just buying them as a part of your army. Detachments are so generous that you can basically take whatever you want without much issue. I could see this being a thing if you're playing a tournament that only allows a set amount of detachments, specifically one.

3. They are added to the unit, the new unit thing was from 7th in 8th they are added to the same unit of horrors! (and they specifically cost points)

2. Makes more sense what i was getting at now? e.g. the blue horror reenforcements pump into the original horror unit so its all one kp.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPEwaVguLk
This guy managed it, fun lil BR.

When you have a good chunk of pink horrors the multitude of blue ones you can add in kinda makes this extendable footprint which you can add to on any front. BR above is a great example.

 Latro_ wrote:
3. They are added to the unit, the new unit thing was from 7th in 8th they are added to the same unit of horrors! (and they specifically cost points)

Oh, so they are. Was not aware of this, but this only makes it even more inconsistent. So these aren't even added as a new unit, but still cost RP? This is wacky.. feels like GW doesn't really have a concrete opinion on what should and shouldn't cost RP.

You also might think, well why not have 15 horrors and x blue horrors from the start in the same unit and just pay the pts if you dont want the dynamic footprint benifit. But again the RP system comes into play say those 15 horrors camp a backfield obj one game untouched and you never need that big of a unit, well now you have the RP ands can if you like summon a whole unit of blues somewhere else or anything else you like say a screamer etc.

I guess you are gettin a 2 fr 1 and if they were free then horrors would be flat out silly in 8th

Also imagine this tactic:
Keep a lot of RP aside
'Summon' 10 P horrors once you get close, small footprint as 10 models
now they just expand and expand consolidating more and more units into combat

What about armies that just have no options for RP like eldar, we have to start with everything paid for and dont even get the option to use RP and no unit can heal. Id gladley use a little RP to heal a wraith unit with a spiritseer.

Spoletta wrote:
If we follow this logic then also healing wounds to a model should cost points, otherwise it is an "unfair" advantage, who cares if your models already paid the cost for that healing!
Then while at it we should make it so every time Robby G allows a reroll you pay points, otherwise he is handing out an unfair advantage!

Sillyness aside, the only thing that matters is "Do i have already paid points for that ability?"

Apothecaries do
Tervigons do
Necrons do
Magnus doesn't
Horrors don't
Any kind of summoning doesn't

Why do we have those distinctions? Easy, because there are cases where you can more or less have an estimated impact of the ability in a match and calculate a point cost accordingly, and cases like the summoning where this is impossible, so you don't pay anything upfront, but pay when you use it.

The disction is NOT in generating or not a new unit, the chaos stratagems can generate a demon prince and it doesn't cost any point.

In your opinion how much of their points have Tervigons (217) or Canoptek Spyders (76) paid for their ability? A Tervigon can "heal" up to 40 points worth per turn and a Canoptek Spyder can "heal" 13 points per scarab unit within 6".

IMHO 60 or 70 for the Tervigon. That's the average number of points of termagants you will get to spawn before you lose the Tervigon or the termagants. Sometimes you will get 3 full spawns (120 points), sometimes none.

For Canoptek i have no idea, i don't play Necrons, but i'm sure that any Necron player can easily tell you.

What i'm surprised is that you asked about those two that are by far the easiest to assess, and you didn't ask for the apothecary which is a real challenge.

Horrors on the other hand are extremely easy to assign an RP cost, but that would bring them to 24 points each. Do you really want to play with 24 point pink horrors? No? Then the solution implemented by GW is way better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alleus wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
3. They are added to the unit, the new unit thing was from 7th in 8th they are added to the same unit of horrors! (and they specifically cost points)

Oh, so they are. Was not aware of this, but this only makes it even more inconsistent. So these aren't even added as a new unit, but still cost RP? This is wacky.. feels like GW doesn't really have a concrete opinion on what should and shouldn't cost RP.

Reinforcement points in AoS are wacky, where we still don't have a definite answer if a Phoenix being reborn cost points since it not a NEW unit being set up.

In 40K the definition is absolutely clear. It tells you to pay on the datasheet? Pay for it. Being a new unit or not has nothing to do with it.

Edit: No ok, there are some wacky parts in 40K too, the Tervigon does not tell you to pay points for new Termagants, but it was covered by a FAQ.

18pts

PH went down to 8 and BH 5 in new faq

edit: oh you were counting brims too

 alleus wrote:
Summoned Daemons I have stated from the start that I get, it's when adding a new unit due to a special rule that I think is silly.

I buy the argument that you get a new unit that didn't take up a detachment slot though, and going first etc. These are good points, but I don't think they make up for the cost.

How have you paid for healed models? If you have a 10 man Termagant unit, you pay for 10 models. If 9 die, and you heal them back up you get 9 free models. Sure, they take up a detachment slot, but I wouldn't say that's a fair cost compared to acutally having to put points aside for them, as is the case for the Chaos Spawn or Horrors.

I would have preferred if the Split ability worked like Reanimation protocols, i.e you get a chance for the Horror to split, and then it gets added to the unit (not create a new one). Right now I would never pay the points for these, and I haven't really met anyone who disagrees. Same for Magnus and Bolt of Change.

You have paid initially for the unit, so I pay 240 points for 20 warriors. If you summon in 240 points of demons/spawn/whatever it is, without paying for it, its literally for free. How is it fair that you get free units each and every turn in the game?

Demon summoning was cancer in 7th, they addressed it by bringing in reinforcement points. They got rid of all the free stuff, as bringing a 1850pt army and fighting a 2k+ army wasnt fair. This way its fair for both parties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Firefox1 wrote:

With that in mind Necron Reinforcement Protocols is the most OP thing in 8th edition. Yes i know the counter is focus fire, but still sometimes your dice rebel and won´t let you kill the last of the 20 warriors, and next turn are all back.

Hilarious overstatement. RP is weak, ive yet to roll for it more than 3 times in my games, and you dont get all back, you get (at buffed best) 50% back, and usually only 1/3 (if you roll well). Can you credibly say that RP is stronger than brimstones/conscripts/guilliman? Not realistically.

If you have killed 19 warriors and your opponent spends 2cp so the unit doesnt run away, and he rolls for RP, he will get, on average, 5 models back, from 19 rolls. Not OP at all, especially considering 6 warriors isnt that hard to kill...........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Firefox1 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If we follow this logic then also healing wounds to a model should cost points, otherwise it is an "unfair" advantage, who cares if your models already paid the cost for that healing!
Then while at it we should make it so every time Robby G allows a reroll you pay points, otherwise he is handing out an unfair advantage!

Sillyness aside, the only thing that matters is "Do i have already paid points for that ability?"

Apothecaries do
Tervigons do
Necrons do
Magnus doesn't
Horrors don't
Any kind of summoning doesn't

Why do we have those distinctions? Easy, because there are cases where you can more or less have an estimated impact of the ability in a match and calculate a point cost accordingly, and cases like the summoning where this is impossible, so you don't pay anything upfront, but pay when you use it.

The disction is NOT in generating or not a new unit, the chaos stratagems can generate a demon prince and it doesn't cost any point.

In your opinion how much of their points have Tervigons (217) or Canoptek Spyders (76) paid for their ability? A Tervigon can "heal" up to 40 points worth per turn and a Canoptek Spyder can "heal" 13 points per scarab unit within 6".

Have you rolled for 3 units of scarabs from a spyder? very likely to have to blow CP to not kill it. Its not like it a broken mechanic, you get 1 base back per turn. The spyder is T6 4W. Dies to a stiff breeze.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For armies with healing abilities, the points are included in their base cost. So RP is included in warriors etc and the canoptek stuff that doesnt get RP has it included in their base cost. This is why Necrons are an incredibly expensive army to field. Everything is ridiculously costed due to the perceived strength of an underwhelming mechanic. Does any army that uses reinforcement points have these costs included in their prices? No, hence why reinforcement points exist. Its to remove the cancerous aspects of 7th. Remember endless demon summoning spam?

I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, and I'm glad for RP in that sense, but I'm afraid you aren't convincing me with your "healing is included in the cost" argument. Summoning entire units of Daemons I have agreed with from the beginning should be payed for, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

Like mentioned before, even if a Tervigon "only" heals one squad during the whole game, that is still up to 10 models that are just placed. That's up to 40 points every single turn, so if you heal a squad every turn for a full game, that adds up.

A Tervigon isn't that expensive, and it has 14 wounds with T8, which is pretty hardy. It will survive a long time and keep healing units.

So I ask you the question before that you didn't answer, how much of the Tervigons point cost would you say is the "healing cost" that you mention?

Magnus is almost 500 points, and I think a Chaos Spawn or two could absolutely be included in that cost, if that's the case.

I feel single spawn maybe shouldn't be paid for. But then you run into the problem so long as you aren't getting more than 2-3 a game, and it's not abuseable. I feel they just went with a blanket "no free points" when they were designing 8th. It's a respons to 7th and a blanket change like this is obviously going to have units/rules that lose out.

 alleus wrote:
I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, and I'm glad for RP in that sense, but I'm afraid you aren't convincing me with your "healing is included in the cost" argument. Summoning entire units of Daemons I have agreed with from the beginning should be payed for, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

Like mentioned before, even if a Tervigon "only" heals one squad during the whole game, that is still up to 10 models that are just placed. That's up to 40 points every single turn, so if you heal a squad every turn for a full game, that adds up.

A Tervigon isn't that expensive, and it has 14 wounds with T8, which is pretty hardy. It will survive a long time and keep healing units.

So I ask you the question before that you didn't answer, how much of the Tervigons point cost would you say is the "healing cost" that you mention?

Magnus is almost 500 points, and I think a Chaos Spawn or two could absolutely be included in that cost, if that's the case.

Actually you did get your answer to that question. The Tervigon heal ability is coster around 60-70 points, because that is the average number of termagants you will be able to "heal".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Magnus is nowhere near 500 points and has stats and abilities that far justify his cost!

 alleus wrote:
I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, .

They could have cleared that up with a FAQ The points value of your army can never exceed the initial start value.

You want to spawn a hundred points of demons. you need to have lost a hundred points of models.
It isn't rocket science.

 loki old fart wrote:

 alleus wrote:
I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, .

They could have cleared that up with a FAQ The points value of your army can never exceed the initial start value.

You want to spawn a hundred points of demons. you need to have lost a hundred points of models.
It isn't rocket science.

I can't imagine many people are eager to get out a calculator every psychic phase though.

 loki old fart wrote:

 alleus wrote:
I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, .

They could have cleared that up with a FAQ The points value of your army can never exceed the initial start value.

You want to spawn a hundred points of demons. you need to have lost a hundred points of models.
It isn't rocket science.

That would be broken.

Spoletta wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 alleus wrote:
I also think the Daemon farm that was 7th edition was too much, .

They could have cleared that up with a FAQ The points value of your army can never exceed the initial start value.

You want to spawn a hundred points of demons. you need to have lost a hundred points of models.
It isn't rocket science.

That would be broken.

It wouldn't be broken if pinks were priced as a three wound model, blues as two wounds etc.

Sorry, i'm not following you. How does the summoning mechanic you proposed have anything to do with an increased price of horrors?

So the question still remains if the concept of RP is so that no army can bring extra models to the feild during gameplay without paying for them, why do tyranids and necrons get free healing. And facing 90 gaunts and 2 tervigons or 80 necrons with ghost ark and cryptek makes their healing ability stupid busted.

And who said warriors are easy to kill. On average a 15 eldar gaurdians are only going to get 10 wounds and then necrons saves negate most of that and now your in rapid fire range of not just 5 warriors but also the other 2or3 that stood back up. Thats fair...?

vaurapung wrote:
So the question still remains if the concept of RP is so that no army can bring extra models to the feild during gameplay without paying for them, why do tyranids and necrons get free healing.

Because healing is not the same as summoning new models.

Also, I can maybe see tyranids working without healing or spawning new models (kinda kills the point of the Tervigon and Old One Eye though . . .), but the whole point of Necrons is that they get back up. Do you want an already weak army to just be unplayable?

vaurapung wrote:

And who said warriors are easy to kill.

Someone with a basic grasp of maths and tactics?

vaurapung wrote:
On average a 15 eldar gaurdians are only going to get 10 wounds and then necrons saves negate most of that and now your in rapid fire range of not just 5 warriors but also the other 2or3 that stood back up. Thats fair...?

Er . . . what?

First off, how exactly does a 4+ save negate most of the damage? Barring incredible luck, it's ignoring half of incoming damage at best. And given that Guardians' weapons ignore their save entirely on 6s, it won't even be negating 50% of incoming damage.

Second, why are you shooting that squad with nothing but a crap troop choice with no special weapons?

Surely you're aware of the concept of focusing fire? Not to mention using the psychic buffs and debuffs that Eldar are famed for (consider these your answer to Crypteks).

Yeah, if you use a unit that costs half of what that unit of Warriors cost (not even including the ~250pts of Cryptek or Ghost Ark support), then of course you're going to lose. However, if you put a lot of fire into a single unit of warriors to wipe them out then the Necron player doesn't even get to make a single RPs roll.