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The rule about Toxin Sacs say that "for each 6+ roll to wound the creature add an additional damage"

My question is what is the "profile" of that extra damage?

Let say a hive tyrant (with toxin sacs) roll to wound with his scything talon and roll some 6's. Are those extra wounds considered caused by the talons (S6, AP-3, D - d6) or regular wounds (S6, AP 0, D1)?

It's simple. Take the weapon that the model with the Toxin Sac is using to attack with and add an additional point of damage to it for each roll of a 6+ on the 'To Wound' roll Therefore a Fleshborer now does 2 Damage if it rolled a 6+ To Wound. An Impaler Cannon which normally does D3 Damage would now do D3+1 Damage.

Since you apply damage after all Strength, Toughness, and Save considerations, it's irrelevant. Whether the weapon is a fleshborer or a venom cannon if it wounds on a result of 6+ the shot will resolve an additional point of damage provided that wound is not saved against. So, you and your opponent should be mindful of this when fast-rolling any dice that they declare clearly when they are checking armor saves against 6+ successful wound rolls and not your standard to-wound successes.

 Overheal wrote:
Since you apply damage after all Strength, Toughness, and Save considerations, it's irrelevant. Whether the weapon is a fleshborer or a venom cannon if it wounds on a result of 6+ the shot will resolve an additional point of damage provided that wound is not saved against. So, you and your opponent should be mindful of this when fast-rolling any dice that they declare clearly when they are checking armor saves against 6+ successful wound rolls and not your standard to-wound successes.

It can be relevant-Calgar, for instance, halves damage taken.

So if it's 1d6+1, and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 2 damage ([3+4]/2=2).

But if it's 1d6 AND 1 and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 3 damage ([3/2]+[1/2, minimum 1]=3).

For what it's worth, it's the first situation. It's added onto existing damage, NOT made a separate damage thing.

If you take d6 damage and get the toxic sac bonus of adding a damage I would say it works like the first scenario you wrote, (1d6+1) / 2 = wounds, or 2 wounds. I would think you do everything on your end first (figure out how much damage was done) then his halving of the damage go's into effect (divided by 2 rounded up).

I understand that it could be done either way from the way it's written but the other way is actually this

1d6 / 2 + 1 / 2 = wounds rounded up. Or 3/2 (1.5) + 1/2 (.5) = 2 wounds. It's the same in the end. If you halved the first wound why wouldn't you half the second? And all wounds are applied at a single time from a single source except for mortal wounds, which can spill over so are done one at a time I thought.

I hope my argument makes sense. Long night lol. Gl and happy war gaming.

3+1=4, half of 4 is 2. The model takes 2 points of damage.

3, half of which is 1.5, rounded up to 2. 1, half of which is 0.5, rounded up is 1. The model takes 3 points of damage.

Damage from an attack is applied all at once. So it would be (x+1) / 2 = total damage.

Using Ghaz's example it would be the 3+1 = 4. 4 / 2 is 2

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Overheal wrote:
Since you apply damage after all Strength, Toughness, and Save considerations, it's irrelevant. Whether the weapon is a fleshborer or a venom cannon if it wounds on a result of 6+ the shot will resolve an additional point of damage provided that wound is not saved against. So, you and your opponent should be mindful of this when fast-rolling any dice that they declare clearly when they are checking armor saves against 6+ successful wound rolls and not your standard to-wound successes.

It can be relevant-Calgar, for instance, halves damage taken.

So if it's 1d6+1, and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 2 damage ([3+4]/2=2).

But if it's 1d6 AND 1 and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 3 damage ([3/2]+[1/2, minimum 1]=3).

For what it's worth, it's the first situation. It's added onto existing damage, NOT made a separate damage thing.

Calgar doesn't change how Toxin Sacs function. Your question is how does Calgar interact with it. What does his rule say?

edit: FWIW The former situation sounds like it would happen, there's no wording in Toxin sacs to suggest its applied after initial damage or as a 1-point of damage pool.

Yep. It's not separate damage, it increases the damage caused.

Calgar would kick in after Toxin Sacs. Damage of 1 would become 2 due to Toxin Sac, Calgar would halve 2 down to 1. Simples.

 Overheal wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Overheal wrote:
Since you apply damage after all Strength, Toughness, and Save considerations, it's irrelevant. Whether the weapon is a fleshborer or a venom cannon if it wounds on a result of 6+ the shot will resolve an additional point of damage provided that wound is not saved against. So, you and your opponent should be mindful of this when fast-rolling any dice that they declare clearly when they are checking armor saves against 6+ successful wound rolls and not your standard to-wound successes.

It can be relevant-Calgar, for instance, halves damage taken.

So if it's 1d6+1, and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 2 damage ([3+4]/2=2).

But if it's 1d6 AND 1 and he rolls a 3, Calgar takes 3 damage ([3/2]+[1/2, minimum 1]=3).

For what it's worth, it's the first situation. It's added onto existing damage, NOT made a separate damage thing.

Calgar doesn't change how Toxin Sacs function. Your question is how does Calgar interact with it. What does his rule say?

edit: FWIW The former situation sounds like it would happen, there's no wording in Toxin sacs to suggest its applied after initial damage or as a 1-point of damage pool.

The point is, it IS relevant. Some other people's rules make it relevant.

And yes, I explicitly said it was the first situation, not the second. It's d6+1 damage, not d6 damage AND 1 damage.

Why are you both completely changing the formula?

Nowhere does it ever tell you to do anything other than basic pedmas.

It also is doing additional damage, so lets go through the 2 ways that this can be read(mathematically):

3/2+1= 2.5 rounded up to 3.

-or-

3/2= 1.5 rounded to 2 and 1/2=.5 rounded to 1 which totaled is 3 damage.

3.

The answer is 3.

When you start randomly adding parenthesis and exponents you might as well just claim the rule for toxin sacs state that I can hit your model with a hammer every time I attack. In both cases you are changing the rules whole cloth

From Index Xenos 2:

Toxin Sacs: Any wound rolls of 6+ in the Fight phase for a model with toxin sacs cause 1 additional damage.

From Codex Space Marines:

Armour of Antilochus: Marneus Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save. In addition, all damage suffered by Marneus Calgar is halved (rounding up).

One occurs during the 'Make wound rolls' sub-step of the Shooting phase, the other occurs during the 'Inflict damage' sub-step of the Shooting phase.

And?

When the rules trigger have no bearing on when they are applied.

How many damage does calgar take when a 6 to-wound is rolled and he saves? 1.

Which really means that it is the second option: 3/2 rounded +1/2 rounded. For 3. The answer is still 3.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And?

When the rules trigger have no bearing on when they are applied.

Why doesn't it? Can you provide any rules support to back your claim?

If someone rolls a d6 for their damage and gets a 3, they do 2 damage to Calgar.

If they have Toxin Sacs, rolled a 6+ to wound, rolled a d6 for damage and got a 3, they would still do 2 damage to Calgar.

Because the damage formula is really simple. It's 1d6+1.

Ghaz: yes, I already did; with Toxin Sacs.

Toxin Sacs have an effect that is triggered on a roll to wound of 6+. That effect will not come into play until after the next 2 steps in the resolution sequence. First the opponent allocates the wound to a model of his choice(no choice in this instance as there is only 1 model); then the oppinent rolls for saves against the wound. Then you apply any damage incurred, adding 1 damagThfor the 6+ roll to wound 2 steps ago. This 1 damage from the 6+ to-wound will be applied irrespective of a successful save, as a successful save is functionally a value of zero damage and 0+1=1. This is for any unit that had a 6+ to wound and saves.

We use math. Multiplication and division happens before addition and subtraction. So if we are adding 1 damage it will occur after the armor halves the rest of the damage.

Even if we are taking the additional damage separately from the normal damage and also halving it; it is still going to be 1 additional damage because we are told to round up.

It is and will always be 3 in the examples given in this thread. The only way to have it be 2 is if you either do the math out of order or you add mathematical notation you are not told to add(which is literally making up rules in both senses).

No. For example, a Hive Guard with Toxin Sacs fires it’s Impaler Cannon at Marneus Calgar and scores two hits. One of the ‘To Wound’ rolls is a 4, and the other is a 6. You now allocate two wounds to Calgar, one which does D3 damage and one which does D3+1 damage. Calgar now has a chance to save each wound separately. If he fails to save to save the wound that inflicts D3 damage, he would lose 1 to 2 wounds (half of 1-3 damage, rounding up). If he fails to save the wound that inflicts d3+1 damage, he would also lose 1-2 wounds (half of 2-4 damage, rounding up).

No. You allocate 2 wounds to calgar that both do d3 damage and halve those. There is no additional damage because it did not occur in the fight phase.

Toxin Sacs as they are written are more akin to a single mortal wound. The additional damage triggers on a 6+ to wound and there is still the allocation and saves before the triggered effect is applied.

A successful save is always going to result in the additional damage. Because of this we must take it into account separately.

Now on to additional rules support: damage of a weapon is one of a weapon's characteristics(said under #8 for reading tbe datasheet: weapons); the sidebar "modifying characteristics", second paragraph tells us explicitly to multiply or divide all characteristics before addition or subtraction. So, yeah it is 3.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. For example, a Hive Guard with Toxin Sacs fires it’s Impaler Cannon at Marneus Calgar and scores two hits. One of the ‘To Wound’ rolls is a 4, and the other is a 6. You now allocate two wounds to Calgar, one which does D3 damage and one which does D3+1 damage. Calgar now has a chance to save each wound separately. If he fails to save to save the wound that inflicts D3 damage, he would lose 1 to 2 wounds (half of 1-3 damage, rounding up). If he fails to save the wound that inflicts d3+1 damage, he would also lose 1-2 wounds (half of 2-4 damage, rounding up).

I'm not sure if you're just using it as a weird hypothetical example. But just in case, toxin sacs do not apply to ranged weapons. They only work in the Fight phase.
No +1 damage on Impaler Cannons.

I got confused reading this. Does toxic sacks add ne wound to the weapon chara teristic og the weapon, or does it just add a seperate wound?

 Niiai wrote:
I got confused reading this. Does toxic sacks add ne wound to the weapon chara teristic og the weapon, or does it just add a seperate wound?

It adds to the damage characteristic.

The exact wording is "cause 1 additional damage", so RAW the base stat is not modified.

 Niiai wrote:
I got confused reading this. Does toxic sacks add ne wound to the weapon chara teristic og the weapon, or does it just add a seperate wound?

It does not add any wounds, only damage.

Could be a seperate damage(what I was saying about being dealt irrespective of save)

Or

Could be simply added to the damage characteristic(which is still added after multiplication or division as shown above)

Yeah I understood it after reading the wounding and the damage part. Damage from the toxic sacks does not 'spill over' in either reading of the rules. :-)