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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




There's a lot conflicting views about this. I still find them to be useless crap. Thoughts?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 00:35:05


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Made in ca
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

I think they are the best SM troop unit at the moment, but unfortunately that bar is not set very high.

Intercessors serve as something of a middle ground between the offensive nature of Tacs (compared to Ints and Scouts) and defensive nature of Scouts (bubble wrap, scout deployment, cheapest cost). In general, you don't want a middle ground though, especially if it's costing you more points than the more focused options.

Our troops still can't hold a candle to specialists, I think for the higher end competition it's 15 Scouts then move on to better slots.

On the subject of Tac performance, my personal favorite Tac squad loadout has been doing okay. I usually run 2-3 at 1500-2000 points. 5 Marines, Plas, Combi-Plas, either out of a Razorback or two squads sharing a Rhino. Almost always in range of both a Captain and Lieutenant for max damage. Even so, I'd never take more than three troops in any competitive Marine list, they just can't compare to our fliers, razorbacks, or dreadnoughts point for point.

I think my Tacs end up doing more damage than expected because they are almost always the last thing targeted unless they are blocking a charge, so the most aggressive option of the three troops makes a bit more sense if you're not expecting them to be shot anyway. Again though, probably not worth it over Scouts if you don't have another source of bubble wrap, which you need for harder matches.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 01:58:11


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sorry there's no way they're the best troop choice. Don't listen to the above post.

Scouts got good movement on their own and can be kitted offensively just as fine. Intercessors hold objectives better and have a better range to do that task just fine.

CaptainStabby wrote:
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 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

A guy here runs tacts with plasma gun plasma pistol in assault cannon razorbacks and they do very very well for their points, and now theyre obsec! Its lots of shots in a sturdy well priced package with good mechanized back up. Whats to complain about?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

I've only had one game as Space Marines in 8th so far, but my tacticals did good work. I ran them in 5 man squads with a heavy weapon each (lascannon seemed to be the most effective, but it may have just been that particular game). Dug them into cover and used them as fire support and objective holders.

My sniper scouts were largely a disappointment on the other hand. But that could have been bad rolling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 02:42:11


 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.

   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Oshawa Ontario

Malifice wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.



Fair enough...but enough success that 270+ points of something else wouldn't do it better? I mean, a missile/twin-lascannon dread and 3 aggressors will double your bolter fire, and give you better heavy weapons, with better toughness.

A Storm Raven almost? I mean...a Raven throws out MAD fire power.

My experience with troops is.....why bother? Why bother with objective secured when you can spend those points on better damage output and table your opponent? It's never been easier than it is now.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I really like them for getting in the way and controlling the tempo of battle. You can combat squad a 10-Marine unit so the decent weapons (I like Plasma Guns and Grav Cannon) can hang back and the other 5 rush forward and capture objectives, force back deep strikers, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't expect them to kill much but every army needs disposable infantry to dictate how and where the game is played. Tactical Marines are pretty good at this as they are resistant to small arms fire and have objective secured. If the enemy tries to hammer you with direct attacks you can use the Tactical Marines to deflect and dilute the strength of his assault.

Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

I just played a game with my World Eaters against a tournament list with 4x5-man Tactical Squads, with melta/combimelta in each of them. They were placed in a pair of Rhinos for mobility. They did just fine in that game, although personally I prefer plasma rather than melta on tac squads.

And while the argument can be made for trying to table your opponent rather than leverage ObSec, against some lists that is just not possible. Durable ObSec units are a good thing to have handy. I think Tacticals are more flexible than Intercessors and can provide a greater variety of things to a list depending on how they are kitted out, whereas Intercessors pretty much just have one job, which they do really well. Perhaps the problem is that Tacticals are generalists in a game ruled by specialists.

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Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




The main issue is that they are too squishy without any relevant advantages. I have been up against Kastelan Robots with triple heavy phosphor blasters, at 110 pts each kills ~4 tac marines per shooting phase at 36'' and ignores cover. An admech player will bring 4-8 of those. Cawl adds another 50% to their hit rate. This basically means that either you get tabled or they get tabled by turn 5 and tac marines are not exactly helping you in this equation. AM HWTs with mortars are similarly efficient, they and many other units in the AM list are good at taking tac marines off the board. Obsec doesn't help if they are not alive to use it.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




 Carnage43 wrote:
Malifice wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.



Fair enough...but enough success that 270+ points of something else wouldn't do it better? I mean, a missile/twin-lascannon dread and 3 aggressors will double your bolter fire, and give you better heavy weapons, with better toughness.

A Storm Raven almost? I mean...a Raven throws out MAD fire power.

My experience with troops is.....why bother? Why bother with objective secured when you can spend those points on better damage output and table your opponent? It's never been easier than it is now.


A Stormraven is also a big model, and prone to getting shot down in a single turn by concentrating half a dozen las cannon shots onto it.

Each 5 man squad spits out 8 bolter shots at rapid fire range and a missile (sallies re-roll 1 roll to hit and wound). Park them in cover and they're sitting on a 2+ save. Gotta kill the lot to take the objective.

They also rack up VP's meaning your opponent needs to table you or lose.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Sallimander 5 man tac with lascannon are pretty effective as the 4 cheap marines have to die before the lascannon does and since all the lascannon rerole to hit and to wound roles that pretty efficient AV.

Also it's 5 bolter shots because who wouldn't give a storm bolter to Sgt for an extra 2pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Carnage43 wrote:
Malifice wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.



Fair enough...but enough success that 270+ points of something else wouldn't do it better? I mean, a missile/twin-lascannon dread and 3 aggressors will double your bolter fire, and give you better heavy weapons, with better toughness.

A Storm Raven almost? I mean...a Raven throws out MAD fire power.

My experience with troops is.....why bother? Why bother with objective secured when you can spend those points on better damage output and table your opponent? It's never been easier than it is now.


I like this as argument and while if your building an alpha list I agree.... but the counter is what then happens when they seize the initiative or you come up against 300 conscripts (the list designed not to be tabled) you end up losing. Raw fire power isnt everything and that's why there are a lot of marine players upset about the power level of conscripts.

Just a suggestion but if you take a salamander list of pure lascannon tacs and devs consiting of cherubs 3 marines and one lascannon you can still have an alpha expectancy close to killing 2 knights and can hold your backfield quite nicely not to mention all those multidamage weapons your opponent paid for do nothing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/18 08:36:24


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Saber wrote:
I really like them for getting in the way and controlling the tempo of battle. You can combat squad a 10-Marine unit so the decent weapons (I like Plasma Guns and Grav Cannon) can hang back and the other 5 rush forward and capture objectives, force back deep strikers, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't expect them to kill much but every army needs disposable infantry to dictate how and where the game is played. Tactical Marines are pretty good at this as they are resistant to small arms fire and have objective secured. If the enemy tries to hammer you with direct attacks you can use the Tactical Marines to deflect and dilute the strength of his assault.


Why would you ever combat squad a 10-man unit. Why.

You can take two 5-man with the same options and get 2 sergeants... ?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






zerosignal wrote:
 Saber wrote:
I really like them for getting in the way and controlling the tempo of battle. You can combat squad a 10-Marine unit so the decent weapons (I like Plasma Guns and Grav Cannon) can hang back and the other 5 rush forward and capture objectives, force back deep strikers, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't expect them to kill much but every army needs disposable infantry to dictate how and where the game is played. Tactical Marines are pretty good at this as they are resistant to small arms fire and have objective secured. If the enemy tries to hammer you with direct attacks you can use the Tactical Marines to deflect and dilute the strength of his assault.


Why would you ever combat squad a 10-man unit. Why.

You can take two 5-man with the same options and get 2 sergeants... ?

Yeah, it seems like there's no good reason to combat squad now you can share transports. It'd be nice if there was some sort of advantage to it for people like me who are big spods about old-school fluff.
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




U02dah4 wrote:
Sallimander 5 man tac with lascannon are pretty effective as the 4 cheap marines have to die before the lascannon does and since all the lascannon rerole to hit and to wound roles that pretty efficient AV.

Also it's 5 bolter shots because who wouldn't give a storm bolter to Sgt for an extra 2pts


Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Carnage43 wrote:
Malifice wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.



Fair enough...but enough success that 270+ points of something else wouldn't do it better? I mean, a missile/twin-lascannon dread and 3 aggressors will double your bolter fire, and give you better heavy weapons, with better toughness.

A Storm Raven almost? I mean...a Raven throws out MAD fire power.

My experience with troops is.....why bother? Why bother with objective secured when you can spend those points on better damage output and table your opponent? It's never been easier than it is now.


I like this as argument and while if your building an alpha list I agree.... but the counter is what then happens when they seize the initiative or you come up against 300 conscripts (the list designed not to be tabled) you end up losing. Raw fire power isnt everything and that's why there are a lot of marine players upset about the power level of conscripts.

Just a suggestion but if you take a salamander list of pure lascannon tacs and devs consiting of cherubs 3 marines and one lascannon you can still have an alpha expectancy close to killing 2 knights and can hold your backfield quite nicely not to mention all those multidamage weapons your opponent paid for do nothing.


That list would also generally lose if the opponent seizes or if the opponent has 300 conscripts. Against the conscripts you lose on objectives if you just camp in cover or you lose your units if you try to take objectives. What makes it better than a stormraven-heavy list in that respect?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 10:57:58


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I'm not sure about other SM chapters but SW grey hunters are more than decent, and they're just tactical marines with one more attack but without many options that regular tacticals have and they cost 1 point more.

They're not amazing themselves but 3 units in razorbacks are quite cheap for what they do, very resilient and unlock 3 CP if part of a battallion. 70 points of grey hunters (5 dudes) are tipycally better than 11 ork boyz or 10 kabalite warriors, which are the other troops of my armies (I'm not even mentioning grots or wyches).

Troops should not be amazing, otherwise they would be elites. 3x6 grey hunters with a plasma gun in razorbacks with twin assault cannons and a stormbolter are just 597 points. They look a solid option for me.

I haven't played SW without 3 troops so far, and even if I prefer blood claws' background, grey hunters have proved to be a bit more reliable and versatile.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Storm raven list's lose when you kill the non storm ravens storm raven.
You nullify their multi damage weapons

if you sit or your objectives you have obsec they don't (chapter approved is not yet released) sure you will struggle to take theirs they will struggle to take yours and if you can kill their artillery with lascannons and hang back out of 24" they can't bring their massed Lasguns to bare.

What's the difference storm ravens wipe or bust here you can play for the draw
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




U02dah4 wrote:
Storm raven list's lose when you kill the non storm ravens storm raven.
You nullify their multi damage weapons

if you sit or your objectives you have obsec they don't (chapter approved is not yet released) sure you will struggle to take theirs they will struggle to take yours and if you can kill their artillery with lascannons and hang back out of 24" they can't bring their massed Lasguns to bare.

What's the difference storm ravens wipe or bust here you can play for the draw


ITC format already uses the obsec for all troops rule. Besides, most scenarios with objectives have neutral objectives that the AM player will get by default if you camp.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/18 12:17:03


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

ITC may-not everyone plays ITC and not every tournament uses ITC. I know at my local club it won't be approved till its released and I know the tournament I'm attending in two weeks is not using it. I don't doubt that it coming but where I play objectives can usually be = camped by both players. I do see any rule that says AM player you may camp and even if they do obsec bypasses

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 12:26:49


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

It depends a lot on your CT. Salamander tacticals are really quite good, due to their rerolls to hit and wound. Their CT makes very little difference to intercessors but lots to guys with plasma guns or heavy weapons.

On the other hand, for an army like ravenguard I think intercessors are the clear choice. They become an excellent objective-holder.

The main problem for me with tacticals is that they are not actually cheap, once you factor in the upgrades which are the only reason to bring them. A tactical squad with a special or heavy weapon, and maybe an upgrade or two on the sergeant, will cost close to the price of a squad of intercessors. I honestly think the intercessors are much better.

Razorbacks are of course quite good, so tactical squads are a decent option if you want to have a unit to ride inside one. But in that case I think you might be better off playing SW and having grey hunters. Their extra attack turns them into a very different kind of unit, with almost the hitting power of intercessors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tacs definitely have their purpose. Compared to "better" units with more firepower, they are cheap, can take some damage before being reduced in effectiveness, and still do pretty good damage. Obsec is really just an added bonus.

I've been giving my Tacs (always a 5 man squad) a combi-plasma and either a plasma gun or a grav cannon, depending on what points i can spare, and they certainly do some work.

I would always start them in a transport, and use them as a kind of counter offensive unit, getting between the enemy and my more valuable, more dangerous units. I also use scouts, but they do less damage, and are better for just keeping the enemy back. Tacs have the added bonus of being able to output some pretty good anti infantry fire. 2-3 tac squads in range of some kind of reroll aura put out good damage, and it takes a good amount of fire to chew through 10-15 marines, and you really only care about 2 guys per squad. Compared to just taking a "better" unit like VV or Devs, you start losing expensive firepower almost immediately.

I wouldn't compare them to intercessors, because i think tacs are actually useful offensively, while intercessors are only slightly good at staying alive, and not much else.

All that being said, there are better troop options if you want to dip out of the SM codex (i see scouts as good, but they fill a different role from tacs). Strike squads from the GK book, and some of the IG troops are probably more cost effective in their own ways, but you also lose out on some of the synergy from the SM book.


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






"while intercessors are only slightly good at staying alive, and not much else. "

Going to call BS on this statement.

Intercessors have 2 attacks in CC and ap-1 bolters. They are better offensively in lots of situations (including any CC situation). They are better at shooting units in cover. Better at surviving the game. Plus have better range for rapid fire and max range pop shots. It seems to me the only thing tacs do better than intercessors is specialize vs different targets.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




U02dah4 wrote:
Sallimander 5 man tac with lascannon are pretty effective as the 4 cheap marines have to die before the lascannon does and since all the lascannon rerole to hit and to wound roles that pretty efficient AV.

Also it's 5 bolter shots because who wouldn't give a storm bolter to Sgt for an extra 2pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Carnage43 wrote:
Malifice wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty near the bottom of effective troop units. Def a liability to put extra points into - and are pretty worthless without doing so serving no legit roll. I consider that bottom tier. A unit of intercessors by comparison is ready to go for 100 points and serves the roll you need them to serve. They are tough to kill and are exactly the kind of unit you want to use to defend your lines.


Yet I've been having a lot of success with 3 x 5 man Tac squads (1 x ML) on my Sallies list.



Fair enough...but enough success that 270+ points of something else wouldn't do it better? I mean, a missile/twin-lascannon dread and 3 aggressors will double your bolter fire, and give you better heavy weapons, with better toughness.

A Storm Raven almost? I mean...a Raven throws out MAD fire power.

My experience with troops is.....why bother? Why bother with objective secured when you can spend those points on better damage output and table your opponent? It's never been easier than it is now.


I like this as argument and while if your building an alpha list I agree.... but the counter is what then happens when they seize the initiative or you come up against 300 conscripts (the list designed not to be tabled) you end up losing. Raw fire power isnt everything and that's why there are a lot of marine players upset about the power level of conscripts.

Just a suggestion but if you take a salamander list of pure lascannon tacs and devs consiting of cherubs 3 marines and one lascannon you can still have an alpha expectancy close to killing 2 knights and can hold your backfield quite nicely not to mention all those multidamage weapons your opponent paid for do nothing.


Obj sec doesn't work with conscripts because they bar you from even being with 3" of the objective physically. That's why the marine players in my area consider that a useless rule vs our IG players.
   
Made in us
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Baltimore

I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.
Out of interest, which group is which? Do you think the people who know how to play like tactical marines, or find them a liability?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





zerosignal wrote:
 Saber wrote:
I really like them for getting in the way and controlling the tempo of battle. You can combat squad a 10-Marine unit so the decent weapons (I like Plasma Guns and Grav Cannon) can hang back and the other 5 rush forward and capture objectives, force back deep strikers, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't expect them to kill much but every army needs disposable infantry to dictate how and where the game is played. Tactical Marines are pretty good at this as they are resistant to small arms fire and have objective secured. If the enemy tries to hammer you with direct attacks you can use the Tactical Marines to deflect and dilute the strength of his assault.


Why would you ever combat squad a 10-man unit. Why.

You can take two 5-man with the same options and get 2 sergeants... ?


Because sometimes you don't want to combat squad them, so taking them as one big squad gives you some flexibility. It's easier to keep a single 10-Marine squad within range of command auras, and a big squad gets better use out of certain stratagems.

If you know you're going to be deploying them as separate units from the get go then of course you should purchase them as separate units. But if your battle plan is going to change from game to game then it's better to buy a full squad.

Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Baltimore

Mandragola wrote:
 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.
Out of interest, which group is which? Do you think the people who know how to play like tactical marines, or find them a liability?


I think the people that find them a liability are the ones who focus too much on numbers and not actually playing. I play close to 4 times a week if not more and the local meta has a decent chunk of marine players and almost all of them get some good mileage out of their tac marines, sometimes pulling miracles with them. Not saying they don't have their problems, but when you're actually at the table crunching numbers doesn't help you much if you're just getting outplayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that it maters because everybody just losses to the Sisters players anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 14:14:54


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




All roads lead back to "git gud", I guess. Tac marines have been victims since at least 2nd ed. Mostly because their offense/pt is bad in a game that's frequently about removing models. I didn't see a whole lot of tac marines being used as the backbone of 7th marine lists outside of gladius lists. I guess those tournament players need to git gud with their tac squads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 14:17:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.

Yeah it really doesn't.

Anything I really want Tactical Marines to do offensively I can get Scouts to do for the most part. If I want to camp or take objectives, Intercessors do that better. While not troops anymore, if I want special weapon spam I can still go with Bikers.

The only thing Tactical Marines do is be the cheapest source of Razorbacks. And honestly I would rather just do Sternguard and infiltrate them with either Lias or Ravenguard shenanigans, so I get my cake and eat it too.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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