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Wow does GW not know what to do with horrors or what? So they reduce the price of an obviously over priced pink horror by two points. Good, 8 points is still probably to much for what you got with pink horrors, but whatever. Then, in order to "fix" the brimstone issue, they make it so you need 10 to cast the smite for more than one damage. So, if your unit of 10 takes one casualty, then they lose the only redeeming ability the have. And did this affect people taking brimstones? Of course not, because the brimstones are taken because they are cheap chaff, which at one point more they still are. So now if I want my pink horrors to be effective I have to run large units, meaning more models and less of other units, which will be better. No thank you.

All these issues go back to the stupid split rule. Why can't they just bury this rule and make all the iterations of horrors exactly the same using the pink horror rules (probably at like 7 points). In an edition that prides it self on simplicity, the split rule is unnecessarily cluncky and complicated in both list creation and practice. If they want to have split type rule because horrors split in the fluff, just make it a stratagem like XCP "Split: use this when a horror model is removed. Immediately add D3 horrors back to the unit". There, and quite frankly I don't know how many people are wasting a CP on that. I know this issue has been raised before (I know i talked about it on a thread at one point) but the fact that they just made changes to horrors which did not even remedy the problem they set out to fix while making a bad unit less likely to be used is frustrating.

On a side note, while the above annoys me, I will still give GW credit for the quick FAQs etc. After playing 2nd-6th, they really have stepped it up a notch, just can't figure out the horrors (which have have like 5 or 6 different rule sets though the years mind you)

They made them cheaper while making the cost of split the same. It's garbage and I won't ever use them.

They should have made Pinks MORE expensive, but included Split for free. Let's say 15-16ppm for Pinks, 7ppm for Blues (only if taken from the start)
So instead of paying the current 24pts for 1 Pink, 2 Blues & 2 Brims, you only have to pay 15-16pts, essentially giving you a discount for taking Pinks in the first place.

I also think that at that points cost, you can make Brimstones "free" at the cost of not being valid to take on their own. Meaning you cannot purchase Brims to start with, but get them when a Blue 'splits".
That would make the minimum unit cost for Horrors 70pts for 10 Blues, at which point spamming tons of horrors is possible, but not "the default troop option for every list"

But I do agree that making the whole unit need 10 Pinks to cast D3 damage Smite is ridiculous. It should be regular Smite (2D6 to cast) at that point, and once you get less than 10 Pinks, then any Pink should still be able to cast D3 damage Smite on 1D6

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I dunno, they make a great tarpit assault unit. I've had a lot of trouble with them using elite assault units, the buggers just kept multiplying! That darn rolling 1s on 1D6 thing, hah it's so frustrating. They seem to keep adding more than I kill.

 Galef wrote:
They should have made Pinks MORE expensive, but included Split for free. Let's say 15-16ppm for Pinks, 7ppm for Blues (only if taken from the start)
So instead of paying the current 24pts for 1 Pink, 2 Blues & 2 Brims, you only have to pay 15-16pts, essentially giving you a discount for taking Pinks in the first place.

I also think that at that points cost, you can make Brimstones "free" at the cost of not being valid to take on their own. Meaning you cannot purchase Brims to start with, but get them when a Blue 'splits".
That would make the minimum unit cost for Horrors 70pts for 10 Blues, at which point spamming tons of horrors is possible, but not "the default troop option for every list"

But I do agree that making the whole unit need 10 Pinks to cast D3 damage Smite is ridiculous. It should be regular Smite (2D6 to cast) at that point, and once you get less than 10 Pinks, then any Pink should still be able to cast D3 damage Smite on 1D6

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The fact that literal living magic has a gakky smite is irony not lost on me.

Let's see

Pay 27+5 for a 1 damage Smite
Which means Pay 64 for a 2 damage Smite

Pay AT LEAST 80 for a d3 damage Smite

Yep... they failed again!

Sure it's "nerfed" which they needed to be... but the unit is still terribly balanced...

 Galef wrote:
They should have made Pinks MORE expensive, but included Split for free. Let's say 15-16ppm for Pinks, 7ppm for Blues (only if taken from the start)
So instead of paying the current 24pts for 1 Pink, 2 Blues & 2 Brims, you only have to pay 15-16pts, essentially giving you a discount for taking Pinks in the first place.

I also think that at that points cost, you can make Brimstones "free" at the cost of not being valid to take on their own. Meaning you cannot purchase Brims to start with, but get them when a Blue 'splits".
That would make the minimum unit cost for Horrors 70pts for 10 Blues, at which point spamming tons of horrors is possible, but not "the default troop option for every list"

But I do agree that making the whole unit need 10 Pinks to cast D3 damage Smite is ridiculous. It should be regular Smite (2D6 to cast) at that point, and once you get less than 10 Pinks, then any Pink should still be able to cast D3 damage Smite on 1D6

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The problem with this is then I basically have to take blues and brimstones. And so it costs me like $100 just to build a troop choice of ten models to start on the field and carry 30 models to field 10 to start. And I don't think they are playable as Split does not apply to moral, so you lose a bunch, then the pinks run off because of moral. They are not work 16 points like that.

 Galef wrote:
They should have made Pinks MORE expensive, but included Split for free. Let's say 15-16ppm for Pinks, 7ppm for Blues (only if taken from the start)
So instead of paying the current 24pts for 1 Pink, 2 Blues & 2 Brims, you only have to pay 15-16pts, essentially giving you a discount for taking Pinks in the first place.

I also think that at that points cost, you can make Brimstones "free" at the cost of not being valid to take on their own. Meaning you cannot purchase Brims to start with, but get them when a Blue 'splits".
That would make the minimum unit cost for Horrors 70pts for 10 Blues, at which point spamming tons of horrors is possible, but not "the default troop option for every list"

But I do agree that making the whole unit need 10 Pinks to cast D3 damage Smite is ridiculous. It should be regular Smite (2D6 to cast) at that point, and once you get less than 10 Pinks, then any Pink should still be able to cast D3 damage Smite on 1D6

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What they should do is disable the Split Rule completely, limit squad size to always be 10 Pinks

Introduce 2 new items for the Pink Horrors

Locus of Creation ~30 points - Pink split into Brims
Greater Locus of Creation ~80 points - Pinks split into Blues who split into Brims

Also
Magic Made Manifest now ALWAYS kills the user
When used by a Pink it works on a 4+ and deals d3
When used by a Blue it works on a 5+ and deals d3
When used by a Brim it works on a 5+ and deals 1

I think taking 10 Pinks and then some Brims to take the hits in one unit could work okay. Not optimal by any means, but...eh. The Pinks don't just have Smite; they also have a shooting attack, albeit not a great one. And if the unit gets caught in CC they could become a massive tarpit if you paid points to split the big ones.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here (or Daemon's advocate ), but I'm trying to find a way that Pink Horrors could be useful. I've been toying with buying the Tzeentch Daemon Start Collecting box, but I'm not gonna do it if the Horrors are trash (we already know how bad Screamers are as well).

Why not:
24ppm for a Pink Horror, can't purchase other Horror types separately but they get Split for free

And

Remove the Pink Horror restriction on Smite, but add:
Every use of a psychic ability causes the selected 'casting model' to split (must use pinks if available, then blues, until only brimstone are left which die to cast it as it works currently).

GhostRecon wrote:
Why not:
24ppm for a Pink Horror, can't purchase other Horror types separately but they get Split for free

And

Remove the Pink Horror restriction on Smite, but add:
Every use of a psychic ability causes the selected 'casting model' to split (must use pinks if available, then blues, until only brimstone are left which die to cast it as it works currently).

So, to confirm, you want to make them even worse?

Not only are Pinks still bad but there's no reason to take more than a single Blue Horror ever - and even then now many players are just content taking Brim-only units now that their Smite has been nerfed.


GW just needs to rethink how they want Horrors to work.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
Why not:
24ppm for a Pink Horror, can't purchase other Horror types separately but they get Split for free

And

Remove the Pink Horror restriction on Smite, but add:
Every use of a psychic ability causes the selected 'casting model' to split (must use pinks if available, then blues, until only brimstone are left which die to cast it as it works currently).

So, to confirm, you want to make them even worse?

How would that make them worse?

Because now Pink Horrors cost as much as they do now after splitting, and are forced to die every time they cast smite?

Like the only buff you've given them is they can now smite D3 all the time... which is really nothing compared to tripling the cost and forcing a model to die (starting with Pinks no less) every time you smite.

Also you force Pinks to be the focus of the Smite if they exist, which limits flexibility of targeting.


So one slight buff and many large nerfs.

Ah. Was suggesting they'd Split not die - only the Brimstones would die and only when they were the only thing left to nominate as the casting model. Figured that plus the removal of the Pink Horror restriction on Smite would help preserve their 'splitting/expanding' tarpit theme while maintaining some semblance of the slightly toned down durability that GW seems to be aiming for.

So a unit of 10 Pinks casting Smite would lose one for two Blues - 9 Pinks and two Blues. But suffer no reduction in their ability to cast Smite for it... compared to now where, while they don't lose anything to cast Smite they also can't do so the instant they fall below 10 Pinks. If you bought enough Reinforcement points for every Split you're still paying 240pts either way; but the former pays for getting to cast Smite across all 50 wounds it gets (assuming no shooting/morale casualties) by forcing one Split each time... whereas the other loses the ability to Smite the moment you lose one Pink (of the starting ten).

I don't have any horrors yet, but I am going to have to at something point for my tzenchy deamon army I am working on. But to me it doesn't seem that bad the way they are now. I thought the way the rules worked is you didn't have to split if you didn't want to or didn't have the points to? I know mass smiting is a thing that to me seams unbalanced, just watch a few battle reports with Grey knights spaming it over and over, doesn't seem fair or right but then again that's why you take psychers to counter that stuff. :p

Off track of topic, sorry.

Don't these guys make incredibly awesome tarpits that act like quicksand? A squad of 10 pinks turns into 20 blues and 40 brimstone right? Or am I miscounting something? (Don't have index in front of me atm) That seems like a squad of terminators/necron warriors (good luck reanimating when there is no where to stand up) / anything not melee dedicated to the level of genestealers or beserkers would ever get out of it until the horrors wanted them to. The smite is a bonus beating I see them giving an opponent locked down.

Or am I misreading their purpose?

Just get rid of splitting. Period. It's a frustrating mechanic that's nigh impossible to balance.

That removes the mixed units, which in turn means you can remove the minimum 10 horrors to smite. Give blues the 1 wound version so they have a place, then brims remain as cheap chaff.

No comment on my suggestion at all?

Azuza001 wrote:

Don't these guys make incredibly awesome tarpits that act like quicksand? A squad of 10 pinks turns into 20 blues and 40 brimstone right? Or am I miscounting something? (Don't have index in front of me atm) That seems like a squad of terminators/necron warriors (good luck reanimating when there is no where to stand up) / anything not melee dedicated to the level of genestealers or beserkers would ever get out of it until the horrors wanted them to. The smite is a bonus beating I see them giving an opponent locked down.

Or am I misreading their purpose?

Pink into 2 Blues
Blue into 1 Brim
10 > 20 > 20

Gotcha. That's still a nasty tarpit.

I don't even know their current rules, but simply go back to the origins of the splitting rule (get rid of brimstones entirely that's stupid and unnecessary).

 Talamare wrote:


What they should do is disable the Split Rule completely, limit squad size to always be 10 Pinks

Introduce 2 new items for the Pink Horrors

Locus of Creation ~30 points - Pink split into Brims
Greater Locus of Creation ~80 points - Pinks split into Blues who split into Brims

Also
Magic Made Manifest now ALWAYS kills the user
When used by a Pink it works on a 4+ and deals d3
When used by a Blue it works on a 5+ and deals d3
When used by a Brim it works on a 5+ and deals 1

This is probably the best solution IMO. Don't even make blues and brimstones an option to take separately, but give pinks an option to upgrade at a set point value based on how far you split. Currently, there is no value in using the split to begin with, as most are just going to field the units/models they pay for up front (much like the spawn creation stuff, pointless in match at).

Brimstones are the new model.

They will be "better" until sales of brimstones flatten out.

Apply this logic to all these GW "mistakes" and everything falls into place.

Pancakey wrote:
Brimstones are the new model.

They will be "better" until sales of brimstones flatten out.

Apply this logic to all these GW "mistakes" and everything falls into place.

yes when you ignore the entire history of GW releasing new models with terrible rules and only look at the few times GW made broken rules then it would look like GW makes broken units for profit and not incompitence