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So one of the items I desire the most, is to own a Destroyer Tank hunter but since they are long OOP its getting hard to get the hold of one. But this item appeared and I thought I finally got lucky and would get a change (if the price was right), but on further inspection it seems more and more its a recast (resin and plastics components).
Spoiler:
First the plastic has a weird soft edge look but that could be nothing,
Secondly the handguards at the top seem to be missing material and none of them looks like they have rivets.
Thirdly the HB has solid barrel and unless this is a rare production misstake by GW it points towards a simplified mold.
Finally the seller has also a siege tank up for sale with multiple mold lines on a single items which im guessing is a giveaway of recast (along with the classic giveaway of double mold line)?
Spoiler:
If it would have been just the resin kit I would have grabbed it but the rest (one cant see the undersides so who knew what quality they will be). Would you chance on that the quality of the recast is good enough or wait?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/21 22:34:02
The plastic, being plastic won't be a recast. Plastic is very expensive to tool, and simply wouldn't be worth it for a recaster, so that's going to be genuine.
The resin certainly LOOKS genuine, but I'm not as hot on that
hard to say looking at it, but I would also bet that once painted, even if it was recast, noone would know. In all fairness, I would not be bothered buying a recast (but i wouldnt pay fw prices for it) because I dont care to play in GW broom closets anyhow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 22:44:26
I may just not be looking at the right thing, but I'm not seeing any double mould lines. And if this is an old tank design from GW, then even the old official ones probably had mould lines and such. I remember a lot of things I've put together over the years that have required cutting or sanding down the lines to get a smooth finish. All of it was official GW models.
I would say it depends on the price. If it's selling for the full RRP of the original item, I wouldn't bother (unless it's something you really, really want). If it's cheap, like half price, then I'd probably get it.
It'll be a lot easier using a remould in the right general shape, and cleaning it up with greenstuff and a craft knife, than trying to build one from scratch.
If it's a recast, they copied it down to the FW resin gates, and managed to keep double mold lines.
The fact is, it's a very old kit, so you're dealing with the old plastic casting, hence what you're seeing with it. How long ago were those sprues discontinued?
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
That component that looks to be like the weapon mount for the sponsons? The one that's broken away at one end, but still attached to the sprue?
That's the best clue that the sprue is genuine. If the plastic components were recast resin (which does happen) then there's little chance, due to the different nature of the two materials, that it would stay connected.
Equally, the sprues don't tend to get sent whole like that, they're normally cut up to reduce size for shipping, and will frequently break up further in transit, to get a whole sprue through China Mail in that condition is highly unlikely.
My biggest note of caution is that recasters will frequently offer the resin parts of hybrid kits separately, so you could have a legitimate GW plastic element and still have a recast resin one. I can't see enough detail to make that call on those images.
EDIT
Fwiw, this model's available for purchase from at least one major recaster as of a few weeks ago, but only as a complete kit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 00:39:21
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I recognise that picture and am pretty certain that seller deals in a lot of recast forgeworld stuff based on their other listings. Some of their other stuff has had obviously resin tracks in the pictures, or resin the wrong colour.
Likely a genuine russ sprue with recast resin parts.
Looks like the genuine article. It happens a bit- a lot of dudes I've known have bought a ton of FW stuff and then just got out of the hobby or been hard up for cash before they could put it together.
And a lot of recasts are hard to spot if the person buying it knows what they're doing.
LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote: The real question is, who cares?
If I see a good deal on some FW or other GW stuff on ebay I buy it.
Ask no questions, be told no lies.
That's a fairly tunnel-vision statement on recasting. Whether people agree on selling recasts as an acceptable behaviour or not (it will always be illegal either way), I certainly wouldn't want to buy something advertised as genuine FW, only to find out it isn't
Echoing those before me - that doesn't look like it's a recast. The sides of the hull and tracks are definitely a regular Leman Russ sprue, but the bits on the right are either genuine FW, or an extremely good recast of FW.
Because a fair price for genuine FW and a fair price for a second hand recast are very different?
Because someone knowingly buying recasts for their own use from a recasters is a different prospect than someone knowingly deceiving another hobbyist?
Because if you know who to buy what from, recasts can be near indistinguishable from the real thing, but in other cases can be utterly gak quality?
Because some people have a problem with the morality of buying recasts and want to avoid it if at all possible?
Plenty of reasons to care.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Unless my experience with FW is an utter exception to the rule, if you have ordered enough product from FW you won't care whether something is a recast or not as long as the product in question is good quality.
I have gotten simply terrible quality models from FW over the years and have been recieved what I am fairly sure were recasts that are some of the best quality models in my army. The opposite is true too.
Rule of thumb is to make sure you get pictures of the actual model(s) you are ordering so you can make sure they look like good casts, if they do it doesn't matter in the slightest whether they are recasts. If you cared about supporting FW (the one reason I can think to care) you won't be ordering off EBay in the first place.
vonjankmon wrote: Rule of thumb is to make sure you get pictures of the actual model(s) you are ordering so you can make sure they look like good casts, if they do it doesn't matter in the slightest whether they are recasts. If you cared about supporting FW (the one reason I can think to care) you won't be ordering off EBay in the first place.
That approach still doesn't address the issue of morality or having something mis-sold to you; even if the cast is of comparable quality to FW, you've still bought something that you believed was something else, and that's not okay in most people's books.
Also, the OP probably would be buying from FW if he could. The whole reason this thread exists is because the model he wants is OOP.
If you don't have the original kit to compare it to (unassembled, unpainted), it's going to be hard to tell.
Some of the recasts have a blatant chemical STANK. Some are really, really greasy.
Normally, I'd say "Recasts look more distorted in detail areas than the original", but I took a look at Forge World's Gabriel Angelos and he has this weird warped Cro-mag head thing happening and that model had a ton of flaws. And I watched the guy order the model and then open the box.
If the lighter plastic is throwing you off, don't let it. I have an old Land Raider with lighter plastic. That's just an old model.
vonjankmon wrote: Rule of thumb is to make sure you get pictures of the actual model(s) you are ordering so you can make sure they look like good casts, if they do it doesn't matter in the slightest whether they are recasts. If you cared about supporting FW (the one reason I can think to care) you won't be ordering off EBay in the first place.
That approach still doesn't address the issue of morality or having something mis-sold to you; even if the cast is of comparable quality to FW, you've still bought something that you believed was something else, and that's not okay in most people's books.
Also, the OP probably would be buying from FW if he could. The whole reason this thread exists is because the model he wants is OOP.
I guess maybe I'm weird but if I am alright paying the price being asked, I don't care who or how it was made. If $50 for the DKoK Advancing Infantry squad is an acceptable price to me I don't care if it was made by the factory in China FW has paid to have make them or whether someone else over there has taken an extra mold and made the same thing or just recast it themselves.
You talk about believing that the item in question is something else but the resin model is still the resin model, there's no difference in the item in question beyond who made it. I guess if they seller is claiming something like "Direct from FW" and it's a recast it may upset some people...
Seriously? That worried it is a recast? You want it, get it. It's a dead ringer if or if it is not the real deal. Does your local GW store ask for validation your models are 100% real GW or FW models? Judging by the warp of the resin front plate, that is a FW model.
krazynadechukr wrote: Seriously? That worried it is a recast? You want it, get it. It's a dead ringer if or if it is not the real deal. Does your local GW store ask for validation your models are 100% real GW or FW models? Judging by the warp of the resin front plate, that is a FW model.
This is not the point.
I could have a recast of the full kit in my hand within around 2 weeks for less than $30.
If this guy is selling this OOP model as FW, do you think he's asking the same money, including fees and shipping?
If this is being sold as genuine and isn't, that's counterfeiting, which is a criminal offense in most countries, and at the bare minimum is likely priced at a significant premium and the OP would find themselves ripped off.
Lot of people ITT apparently struggling with the concept that there may be deeper issues beyond "it looks ok."
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
krazynadechukr wrote: Seriously? That worried it is a recast? You want it, get it. It's a dead ringer if or if it is not the real deal. Does your local GW store ask for validation your models are 100% real GW or FW models? Judging by the warp of the resin front plate, that is a FW model.
This is not the point.
I could have a recast of the full kit in my hand within around 2 weeks for less than $30.
If this guy is selling this OOP model as FW, do you think he's asking the same money, including fees and shipping?
If this is being sold as genuine and isn't, that's counterfeiting, which is a criminal offense in most countries, and at the bare minimum is likely priced at a significant premium and the OP would find themselves ripped off.
Lot of people ITT apparently struggling with the concept that there may be deeper issues beyond "it looks ok."
100% agree. Wrong is wrong. That's why I avoid buying from china or Russia. But my point is it's a toy. If you are stressing so much over ethical virtues over a toy that's a bit silly. Buy it or don't. Any doub? Leave it alone. It's silly to start 20 questioning over something like this. Imagine if we questioned everything we were about to buy.
vonjankmon wrote: I guess maybe I'm weird but if I am alright paying the price being asked, I don't care who or how it was made. If $50 for the DKoK Advancing Infantry squad is an acceptable price to me I don't care if it was made by the factory in China FW has paid to have make them or whether someone else over there has taken an extra mold and made the same thing or just recast it themselves.
You talk about believing that the item in question is something else but the resin model is still the resin model, there's no difference in the item in question beyond who made it. I guess if they seller is claiming something like "Direct from FW" and it's a recast it may upset some people...
It's an illegal practice, no matter which way you spin it. Funnily enough, not a lot of people like to endorse or support illegal activity.
The very apologist views to counterfeit recasts on this thread really do worry me...
krazynadechukr wrote: Seriously? That worried it is a recast? You want it, get it. It's a dead ringer if or if it is not the real deal. Does your local GW store ask for validation your models are 100% real GW or FW models? Judging by the warp of the resin front plate, that is a FW model.
This is not the point.
I could have a recast of the full kit in my hand within around 2 weeks for less than $30.
If this guy is selling this OOP model as FW, do you think he's asking the same money, including fees and shipping?
If this is being sold as genuine and isn't, that's counterfeiting, which is a criminal offense in most countries, and at the bare minimum is likely priced at a significant premium and the OP would find themselves ripped off.
Lot of people ITT apparently struggling with the concept that there may be deeper issues beyond "it looks ok." ]
100% agree. Wrong is wrong. That's why I avoid buying from china or Russia. But my point is it's a toy. If you are stressing so much over ethical virtues over a toy that's a bit silly. Buy it or don't. Any doub? Leave it alone. It's silly to start 20 questioning over something like this. Imagine if we questioned everything we were about to buy.
You read the OP? The guy has wanted one of these for some time and they're OOP, that makes it a different thought process than if it was readily available. Limited opportunity to purchase makes the decision more important.
I bet you wouldn't be so sanguine if it were you with the opportunity to buy something you'd wanted for ages and had doubts over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 16:41:10
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Recast or not aside, I have a couple of Destroyer Tank Hunter conversions. They're not nearly as badass as the real thing, but it's all I could do in the absence of a model from Forge World (and they were rare, to say the least, on Ebay).
You can get a lot of mileage out of the Vengeance Weapon Battery battlecannon for Destroyer conversions - it lacks the muzzle break of a regular Battle Cannon while still having that IG look, making it a fair standin for a laser destroyer array imo.
I bought from Ebay a Tau army that direct from GW costed something like 1200€. I bought it for 230€. After having it in hand, I saw that it was all recast, some Crisis suits had very bad quality recast in their feets.
I didn't care that much because what I got for what I paid was a hell of a deal, but even then, I felt pretty cheated, and even now 2 years after that, it just don't feel right. If the seller on ebay said that it were all recast, I wouldn't have care and bought it anyway, but when they sell it as the legit thing and you are cheated... meh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 17:03:26
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
3. Ebay? Where is the seller located? Do they sell this item often? What's their feedback? Typically if you have a guy in a country that protects TMs or copyrights, the seller rarely sells identical items at the same time or back to back, and they have 99%+ positive feedback, you are pretty safe.
4. When in doubt, buy from the real source.
The line of questioning you could ask yourself over any item you might want to buy so you can sleep well at night is unending.
Is it fake? Was it made in a country that uses child labor? Is it earth damaging in the creation process? Is it toxic? Does the artist get credit? Is it offensive to people? Was it stolen? You see, you could go crazy over asking yourself all the "what if's" about anything you go to buy.
In this case, use common sense and "feel it out" by looking into the ebay seller and what they have sold recently and continually.
Thanks everyone for all the responses, however it seems some action has been happening in the background as the item in question has been removed along with all other items from said seller (4 days before the Laser destroyer bidding ended). Im guessing some kind of legal action happend.
Also to clarify this was the title of said item.
Destroyer Tank hunter Forgeworld Imperial Guard warhammer 40K astra militarum
Now should I post the sellers name or is it better to keep it away?
Im just mostly sad that I will not have to wait for most likely a long time before I can get the chance to buy a Destroyer
3. Ebay? Where is the seller located? Do they sell this item often? What's their feedback? Typically if you have a guy in a country that protects TMs or copyrights, the seller rarely sells identical items at the same time or back to back, and they have 99%+ positive feedback, you are pretty safe.
4. When in doubt, buy from the real source.
The line of questioning you could ask yourself over any item you might want to buy so you can sleep well at night is unending.
Is it fake? Was it made in a country that uses child labor? Is it earth damaging in the creation process? Is it toxic? Does the artist get credit? Is it offensive to people? Was it stolen? You see, you could go crazy over asking yourself all the "what if's" about anything you go to buy.
In this case, use common sense and "feel it out" by looking into the ebay seller and what they have sold recently and continually.
But any fake is wrong to knowingly buy
.
None of which really applies if it is being resold by a private seller.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Banelord300 wrote: Thanks everyone for all the responses, however it seems some action has been happening in the background as the item in question has been removed along with all other items from said seller (4 days before the Laser destroyer bidding ended). Im guessing some kind of legal action happend.
Also to clarify this was the title of said item.
Destroyer Tank hunter Forgeworld Imperial Guard warhammer 40K astra militarum
Now should I post the sellers name or is it better to keep it away?
Im just mostly sad that I will not have to wait for most likely a long time before I can get the chance to buy a Destroyer
There's not a lot of point in naming the seller, as if they're not legit they'll likely burn that account and create a new one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 17:27:21
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
