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Edit

I've found Sternguard and Grav Cannon/Melta Devastators to be the best targets. They're more likely to eliminate their chosen targets and therefore get their objectives.

Edit

Imperial Space Marine is one per army. Also his ability can hide entire units, it's a waste to use it on a single model.

(Going by old Index here so correct me if you can't take these units like this anymore)
Issodon
10 Devestators with 4 Multimeltas with an Armorium Cherub and plasma pistol.
5 Company Veterans with combi plasmas
Company Ancient with combI plasma

Use the Signum and Cherub on one multimelta so it gets 2 shots hitting on 3+ with re rolls.
You have 3 more multimelta shots hitting on 4+ with rerolls.
The unit will also have 1 plasma shot and 10 bolter shots hitting on a 3+ with rerolls.
The company veterans and ancient will put out 12 Plasma shots and 12 bolter shots hitting on a 4+ with re rolls.
Issodon has Malice.

Now the opponent HAS to deal with that much firepower in their flank or rear and when they do, for each model you lose, half the time they get to fire again before they die, punishing the opponent for dealing with you. Can you imagine the opponents dismay after killing a vet when the dying vet puts 2 more plasma and 2 more bolter shots into a unit, rerolling hits?

Should be brutal.

Kudos if you have a Rhino Primaris in range to boost a squads shooting too.

Could always drop some Termis, Scouts or ASMs to back them up too.

Multimeltas are a bizarre option for devastators, who can take lascannons for less. Lascannons are better. The benefit of getting into melta range is outweighed by being right by the enemy, where you're likely to be charged and the ravenguard CT doesn't work.

Lias is 3 free drop pods, effectively. Things that would be good in drop pods are good with him. Grav cannon devastators, guys with lots of special weapons or sternguard are probably your best options. Loads of plasma guns would be a decent option, since Lias himself gives them rerolls to hit.

Sternguard 3x10.

Really not much else you need, since you have to keep half your army on the table you can put your anti-tank into Las Devs or something like that. So you just need them to come in and shut down infantry. Even Special Ammo RFing at 15" is going to be rough. Add to that the likelihood of them being able to take Raven Guard CTs and Strategems and it gets real nasty. Strike from the Shadows a few Aggressors (six, lol) and you wind up with a disgusting Alpha strike army with a solid backfield.

Mandragola wrote:
Multimeltas are a bizarre option for devastators, who can take lascannons for less. Lascannons are better. The benefit of getting into melta range is outweighed by being right by the enemy, where you're likely to be charged and the ravenguard CT doesn't work.

Lias is 3 free drop pods, effectively. Things that would be good in drop pods are good with him. Grav cannon devastators, guys with lots of special weapons or sternguard are probably your best options. Loads of plasma guns would be a decent option, since Lias himself gives them rerolls to hit.

However, we can expect Devastators to die no matter what. So in this situation, going all out with the Melta when you can get them in range is pretty good.

Mandragola wrote:
Multimeltas are a bizarre option for devastators, who can take lascannons for less. Lascannons are better. The benefit of getting into melta range is outweighed by being right by the enemy, where you're likely to be charged and the ravenguard CT doesn't work.

Lias is 3 free drop pods, effectively. Things that would be good in drop pods are good with him. Grav cannon devastators, guys with lots of special weapons or sternguard are probably your best options. Loads of plasma guns would be a decent option, since Lias himself gives them rerolls to hit.

Multimeltas are absolutely devastating to vehicles and MCs in half range. They are hugely more destructive than a Lascannon (due to the reliability of a high roll). The downside they have is their range which Issodons special rule gets around. Yes it means theoretically they have to be in charge range, but remember you can choose where you are putting them and you can also focus down any nasty assault threats of your opponents with the rest of your ranged support. If you put them near a Bezerker unit, Ork mob or Conscript blob without having enough in the locker to focus the unit down, then you deserve for them to be charged and wrecked :-p.

Edit: Forgot to discount the lowest.

Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

RG is probably the more dickish of the options anyhow.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

RG is probably the more dickish of the options anyhow.

Depends the scenario. If you're planning on doing a full 10 man Devastators squad drop, Ultramarines would be more attractive for the falling back ability alone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

RG is probably the more dickish of the options anyhow.

Depends the scenario. If you're planning on doing a full 10 man Devastators squad drop, Ultramarines would be more attractive for the falling back ability alone.

Devs would be a waste. Sternguard all the way. Devs go backfield to help enable the deployment shenanigans. No point putting them up front when they are pretty garbage vs Sternguard with the re-roll bubble from Lias. Especially with the Strike from the Shadows giving you potentially more nastiness up front on T1, because no one wants a stationary squad of 6 Aggressors unloading on your T1. I mean really, that is just rude.

Devs with Grav cannons have a 24" range. Long enough to be able to shoot what you want and still be far enough away to be in cover and sort of safe. I've played a few games with 2x5 devs and 10 sternguard dropping in, and the grav devs have out preformed the sternguard pretty much every time.

jcd386 wrote:
Devs with Grav cannons have a 24" range. Long enough to be able to shoot what you want and still be far enough away to be in cover and sort of safe. I've played a few games with 2x5 devs and 10 sternguard dropping in, and the grav devs have out preformed the sternguard pretty much every time.

Grav seems kinda bad now. Combi-Plasma and Plasma Gun Sternguard seem like they would be better. Especially with the re-rolling hits. Plus, 2A base on Sternguard so they can actually do something in combat, too.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Devs with Grav cannons have a 24" range. Long enough to be able to shoot what you want and still be far enough away to be in cover and sort of safe. I've played a few games with 2x5 devs and 10 sternguard dropping in, and the grav devs have out preformed the sternguard pretty much every time.

Grav seems kinda bad now. Combi-Plasma and Plasma Gun Sternguard seem like they would be better. Especially with the re-rolling hits. Plus, 2A base on Sternguard so they can actually do something in combat, too.

Maybe Grav Guns outside on Bikers (who can choose their targets), but Cannons are a solid pick. Outside on maybe Devastator Centurions (who really NEED a price cut. The current price is fething stupid, pardon my language).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Devs with Grav cannons have a 24" range. Long enough to be able to shoot what you want and still be far enough away to be in cover and sort of safe. I've played a few games with 2x5 devs and 10 sternguard dropping in, and the grav devs have out preformed the sternguard pretty much every time.

Grav seems kinda bad now. Combi-Plasma and Plasma Gun Sternguard seem like they would be better. Especially with the re-rolling hits. Plus, 2A base on Sternguard so they can actually do something in combat, too.

Even with a -1 to hit from deepstriking in, math says that the heavy grav is better than a plasma gun vs infantry and heavy infantry, but slightly worse vs tanks. So it probably depends what else you have in your list.

The issues i had were how expensive the sternguard where, and how close they needed to be to the enemy to be effective. Yes, they messed something up pretty good when they came in, but they all died horribly immediately afterwards. I deployed them fairly forward in rapid fire range of a target, with Lias 6" behind them, and the Devs about 6" behind him, all in range of rerolls and the targets i wanted to shoot.

And yes, the sternguard are decent when they get to swing, but since you arent likely to make a 9" charge most of the time, and when they get charged they swing second, I haven't actually got to experience much of this. Plus most of them just die to shooting. If i play the Lias list again i think i will drop of the Devs in turn one at max range of their targets, with Lias in range of them and some of my other forces, and then save the sternguard for turn 2-3 when things have softened up some and maybe that will work better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

They do, as they are a successor chapter of the Raven Guard.

Corresponding rule on pg 195 reads:
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Devs would be a waste. Sternguard all the way. Devs go backfield to help enable the deployment shenanigans. No point putting them up front when they are pretty garbage vs Sternguard with the re-roll bubble from Lias.

This is just not true... when doing the math you quickly realize that the Gravcannon is still the single most usefull weapon in the Space Marine arsenal. It rivals the Lascannon and Multimelta vs most vehicles/monsters and outclasses the Plasmacannon and Heavy Bolter vs. everything else. The only place it is lacking is multiwound models with a 4+ or worse safe... which arent to common.
Its huge drawback is the short range and that is exactly where the Ravenguard Stratagem comes into play



I usually use the Ravenguard Stratagem to deploy 2x 10 Devastators with Grav Cannons within 24" of high value enemy targets and then drop Lias with a Lieutenant aswell as 2x 10 Sternguards with Special Issue Boltguns right infront of them.

highwind01 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

They do, as they are a successor chapter of the Raven Guard.

Corresponding rule on pg 195 reads:
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Devs would be a waste. Sternguard all the way. Devs go backfield to help enable the deployment shenanigans. No point putting them up front when they are pretty garbage vs Sternguard with the re-roll bubble from Lias.

This is just not true... when doing the math you quickly realize that the Gravcannon is still the single most usefull weapon in the Space Marine arsenal. It rivals the Lascannon and Multimelta vs most vehicles/monsters and outclasses the Plasmacannon and Heavy Bolter vs. everything else. The only place it is lacking is multiwound models with a 4+ or worse safe... which arent to common.
Its huge drawback is the short range and that is exactly where the Ravenguard Stratagem comes into play



I usually use the Ravenguard Stratagem to deploy 2x 10 Devastators with Grav Cannons within 24" of high value enemy targets and then drop Lias with a Lieutenant aswell as 2x 10 Sternguards with Special Issue Boltguns right infront of them.

In fluff that's true, but several FW Chapters are like this. It isn't written which Chapter Tactics the characters use in the rules.
So it makes sense to use Raven Guard anyway, but you don't have to.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fluff that's true, but several FW Chapters are like this. It isn't written which Chapter Tactics the characters use in the rules.
So it makes sense to use Raven Guard anyway, but you don't have to.

Did you not read the rule? It literally tells you that the fluff matters. if you wanna play Raptors, and use Lias, you are forced to use Raven Guard rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fluff that's true, but several FW Chapters are like this. It isn't written which Chapter Tactics the characters use in the rules.
So it makes sense to use Raven Guard anyway, but you don't have to.

Did you not read the rule? It literally tells you that the fluff matters. if you wanna play Raptors, and use Lias, you are forced to use Raven Guard rules.

To my knowledge, this is not stated anywhere for 8th Edition. Got a citation?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fluff that's true, but several FW Chapters are like this. It isn't written which Chapter Tactics the characters use in the rules.
So it makes sense to use Raven Guard anyway, but you don't have to.

Did you not read the rule? It literally tells you that the fluff matters. if you wanna play Raptors, and use Lias, you are forced to use Raven Guard rules.

To my knowledge, this is not stated anywhere for 8th Edition. Got a citation?

highwind01 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also remember that Raptors dont HAVE to be Raven Guard Chapter Tactics RAW. So if you want to be mildly dickish (though not by much) it's an option.

They do, as they are a successor chapter of the Raven Guard.

Corresponding rule on pg 195 reads:
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists.

That doesn't read as a rule as much as a suggestion because anyone can argue the point that some CT represents their Chapter best. Way too open to interpretation.

That being said, I do think they should go for RG, obviously. That is pretty well established. Some Chapters will be much less obvious though.

Several of them don't have founding Chapters. Carcharodons and Minotaurs are the most blatant example.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Several of them don't have founding Chapters. Carcharodons and Minotaurs are the most blatant example.

Well, Carcharodons can be traced to Raven Guard thanks to recent HH books. However, RG CT clearly are a terrible choice for them. They don't do stealth, they do in-your-face-oh-my-god-that-chainaxe-just-cut-me-in-half CC.

Minotaurs are truly unknown, so they are a good example of "pick what works best".

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Several of them don't have founding Chapters. Carcharodons and Minotaurs are the most blatant example.

Well, Carcharodons can be traced to Raven Guard thanks to recent HH books. However, RG CT clearly are a terrible choice for them. They don't do stealth, they do in-your-face-oh-my-god-that-chainaxe-just-cut-me-in-half CC.

Minotaurs are truly unknown, so they are a good example of "pick what works best".

It's all but flatout said, but as it's not confirmed Carcharodons are still out in the open.

Don't forget FW released Angelos with rules, which means we now have that issue the Bluhd Rehvens as well.

Carcharodons are an oddity, in that they probably aren't a successor to the Raven Guard as such. If they are in fact the descendants of the guys Corax sent away for being lunatics when he took over the legion then if anything they are predecessors. Anyway, whatever their origin, they don't follow the raven guard's chapter tactics. Nothing about them is confirmed.

The rule in the codex is pretty clear though. Where you do know that a chapter is a successor of a specific legion, you use that legion's CTs.

You can actually still find the 6th edition FW rules for their CTs online. Here it is: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Space_Marine_Chapter_Tactics_V2.pdf

I thought this could be a useful precedent. For Raptors it says to use a modified version of Ravenguard CTs.

Wouldn't Sternguards with SB be better than Special Issue Boltguns against hordes and not much worse against multi wound targets?

Anyway, the CT for raptors has to be the RG version. Could be way worse.

Dat forge world balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dat forge world balance.

Yup.

I reckon that if you randomly made an army out of Forgeworld stuff then it would be more or less balanced. Lots of their stuff is trash.

Unfortunately, a few units are outrageously good, and players can easily cherry pick them. They often provide game changing (if not game-breaking) special rules that exist nowhere else. So tons of AoS chaos armies include Sayl the Faceless, because he can catapult their units across the board, for example.

At least there's a model for Sayl. Lias Issodon doesn't have one - just a set of rules that are obviously OP.

It's particularly frustrating in the era of the new GW, with Errata and FAQ documents for indexes and codexes coming out regularly, fixing problems like flyer or brimstone horror spam. I don't see that happening with Forgeworld.

[/whine]