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Are the space marines native to the Horus Heresy better fighters and tacticians than their 40k counterparts? Or has 10k years of war against chaos made the latter honed weapons?

Who would win between a 1 on 1 battle if technology difference was negated.

(Inspiration for this topic was brought on due to the fact that the early tech was more superior than what the imperium of man has right now. So why not the astartes.)

Apperantly Dark Imperium says something about gene seed degradation causing g 40k Era marines to be inferior to the legion marines. I disagree though, the Legions were steam rolling the galaxy with gangs of ~100,000 (used to be around 10,000 per legion) men while 40k marines are defending the Imperium in chapters of ~1000 and only had trouble holding because of lack of numbers. Chapters also rarely deployed in full strength, and they still got gak done, *although* that's probably because writers don't take into account the numbers of any forces. For example: a book can be written about space marines at war, and if the author plans on the Marines winning, then it wouldn't matter weather there are 100 or 1000 marines in the book, the outcome is that they still win.

Individually, Marines of the 40k era are superior to those from the HH.
A Marine in 40k is a revered demigod of war, a member of a small elite brotherhood selected from the best of the best warriors humanity has available. He has been selected and constantly trained since childhood and wields sacred weapons and armour that have been made, maintained and improved over millennia by the best craftsmen in the Imperium. He has fought on many battlefields across many different worlds over a period of hundreds of years.

By contrast, a Marine in the Heresy era is mass-produced cannon-fodder, a mere number in an army of many thousands. Recruitment standards are low due to the need to create so many Space Marines and rates of attrition are incredibly high. The constant need for manpower sees them being thrown into battle without much in the way of training. A Space Marine in the Heresy is lucky if he survives his first battle. Those who manage to survive several years are already veterans. Meanwhile, his weapons and armour are either mass-produced without much individual care, or improvised from whatever was available.
The Heresy was a meat grinder of massive proportions. The Legions did not have the luxury of the decades of training and expensive equipment that 40k's Chapters can provide to their warriors. They valued quantity over quality.

Is that actually the case? It seems like all the most revered technology is the older stuff and that "modern" 40k stuff is apparently difficult and time consuming to build. I always thought the marines of the Great Crusade area were superior, but less diversity in their weapon loadout.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Individually, Marines of the 40k era are superior to those from the HH.
A Marine in 40k is a revered demigod of war, a member of a small elite brotherhood selected from the best of the best warriors humanity has available. He has been selected and constantly trained since childhood and wields sacred weapons and armour that have been made, maintained and improved over millennia by the best craftsmen in the Imperium. He has fought on many battlefields across many different worlds over a period of hundreds of years.

By contrast, a Marine in the Heresy era is mass-produced cannon-fodder, a mere number in an army of many thousands. Recruitment standards are low due to the need to create so many Space Marines and rates of attrition are incredibly high. The constant need for manpower sees them being thrown into battle without much in the way of training. A Space Marine in the Heresy is lucky if he survives his first battle. Those who manage to survive several years are already veterans. Meanwhile, his weapons and armour are either mass-produced without much individual care, or improvised from whatever was available.
The Heresy was a meat grinder of massive proportions. The Legions did not have the luxury of the decades of training and expensive equipment that 40k's Chapters can provide to their warriors. They valued quantity over quality.

I would say yes and no to this.

Yes to the fact that in 30k, Marines were produced far quicker then their 40k counterparts. The reasons for this were two fold.
1. The Legions DID need new troops as fast as they could. They needs of the Great Crusade began to out pace the ability of the various Legions to replenish their numbers. The Luna Wolves and Night Lords in particular did the mass conscription approach with the WORST their homeworlds had to offer, and the Iron Warriors and Death Guard basically used their home worlds as breeding pens for recruits.
2. The Geneseed that was being used was far more stable, and the process of implantation was better understood. The Legions did not have to use children but could also induct young men and adults up to their late 20's with a nominal risk of rejection.

In terms of equipment, the MK 5 Heresy Armor WAS mass produced and not exactly great but that is because it was being made out of left over parts in the middle of a massive civil war. Up until that point Armor MKs 2,3, and 4 were very advanced for what they did, as were the suits of terminator armor. By the time of 40k a lot of that information is lost and what is made is done so with more reverence but far less understanding as to HOW it works, only that it does work.

An original Legion Marine wasn't as carefully selected as his 40K counterpart is, but the process of making him a Marine was better understood and the gear he received was in some cases, especially weapons, superior. He might have a slightly tougher body and better guns, maybe ones the 40K Marine isn't used to defend against.

But the 30K Marine wasn't given as extensive training as his later successor. Rank-and-file in the Legions were precious but still expendable shocktroops. Only the ones selected to become officers would have the same sort of education in warfare that any lowly 40K Marine reaching the rank of Scout has. The 30K Marines were Elites made for a specific purpose, which they might be better at than a 40K Marine - but the 40K Marines are SpecOps who have to know almost everthing since they're so few.

So yes, I suspect a 40K Marine would wipe the floor with his 30K counterpart despite geneseed degradation and using less exotic weapons. He has the training to recognize enemy specialization and the skills to shift his focus to better take advantage of some skills that particular Elite isn't suited for.

40k marines have the training. 30k are made with a much better process and have much better equipement.

Warhammer is all about degradation, nothing in 40k can compare with what the Empire had in 30k, thats a core part of the setting.

It has already been stated that 40k marines are inferior.
I even remember a Chaos marine calling 40k marines a shadow of what they were, thus they don't deserve to rule the galaxy.
However, this doesn't correlate well with the accelarated marine recruitement during the end of the Great Crusade.
One would thought that quicker marines were worst marine, but apparently not.

With the understanding, and genetic higher grade genes seed it was far easier to churn marines out by the thousand in 30k.

Armour was known how to be made.

40k..
It's a ritualised art, there more crafted than churned.
New Armour suits are in high demand and rare.

Regular marine. 40k
Named marines.... Well I might have to nudge to 30k

it REALLY depends on the task. are we talking a rapid pin point strike on a position I'd argue 40k Marines MIGHT actually have an edge due to experiance and training etc. for a wide battle across a large area? edge to the 30k marines. that said, eaither way it's proably too close to tell. It's worth noting that the chaos marines consist of many war bands that consist of original legionaries, and there's no evidance that they have superiority OR inferiority.

For the fun of it I'm making it a point by point contest.

Leadership and organisation:
The 40k marines has some very impressive chapter masters and new tactics that's been developped. The 30k marines where however lead by the primarchs so they take this one.
Point 30k

Individual warriors:
Basicly remove all the gear and give every dude a knife. I think we'd see the 40k marines come out on top more often then not. They're recruited in a much more intimate fashion and are often hardened killers even before the Astartes training. By contrast the 30k marines where mass produced
Point 40k

Succesfullness:
It's no discussion, the 30k marines managed to not only conquer the galaxy but also turned out to be the only thing that could shatter it at the time. The 40k marines have impressive victories but have been losing ground for many years. You can't really mention this without mentioning...
Point 30k

Opposition:
The 40k marines can honestly laugh at the enemies of 30k. Yes the beast can not be underestimated and of course the civil war made everything go to hell. However, look at how those events turned out. Both almost ended with the defeat of Terra. By contrast the 40k marines are dealing with chaos Marines, deamons, necrons and Tyranids (I assume Tau is more or less equivalent of old alien empires) and aren't close to "losing" even if things are looking bad.
Point 40k

Gear:
While all of the 40k marines things are hand crafted and they have access to artifacts that's stood the test of time, the 30k marines gear was just better as far as I understand it. Much technology has been lost since then so I'd assume 30k stuff is better then 40k stuff.
Point 30k

Experience:
This one is special. The 30k marines have some of the most impressive warriors ever seen, including dudes like Lucius, Kharn and the primarchs. However, it's very easy to forget that the great crusade only lasted for some 300 years. This'd actually make the oldest 40k marines more experienced then even the oldest veterans of the 30k marines, including the primarchs. Lorgar for instance is older then Guilliman. On top of that Dreadnoughts have wisdoms of ages undreamt of for 30k marines.
Point 40k

Morale:
What destroys armies is usually not the army being wiped out to a man but rather the army routing. In this I'd have to say 40k marines take the case in being more brave. It's actually a rule in the game "and they shall know no fear". The chaos Marines lack this rule. I would assume it's a religious reason, knowing that they fight for a god, that gives the 40k marines this ability. In my eyes the 40k marines are the brave, in many cases even foolhardy, soldiers.
Point 40k

So for me the 40k marines "win" for the above reasons by a single point. Comparing organisation, skills, experience, gear, morale, the Succesfullness of the organisation (as a whole) and the Opposition they have to overcome I'd say the 40k marines take the cake from the 30k marines. Of course this is highly opinion based and arguments can be made for both sides on every point.

 Galas wrote:
40k marines have the training. 30k are made with a much better process and have much better equipement.

Warhammer is all about degradation, nothing in 40k can compare with what the Empire had in 30k, thats a core part of the setting.

/thread

Yep, my money is on 30K all day.

If I want a mass army give me 30k.
If I want spec ops give me 40k.

The two different eras of marines exist to do totally different jobs and do them differently. They both reflect the time they live in.

30k Marines have the superior geneseed and slightly superior equipment, but 40k have a wider range of experience and are zealots.

In a battle between the two in an equal numbered battle I would put my money on the 40k marines. They are each adept in all forms of warfare and have the major morale advantage. They are on average going to be far more zealous and I believe this will give them the edge. They will push on and they will endure where the 30k marines would falter.

If they had equal gear then it would come down geneseed versus knowledge and superior morale and when I doubt I put my money on the crazier of the two.

 Galas wrote:
40k marines have the training. 30k are made with a much better process and have much better equipement.

Warhammer is all about degradation, nothing in 40k can compare with what the Empire had in 30k, thats a core part of the setting.

Except, the nuMarines.
Primaris marines are... Better?
Their armor is.... Better?
Somehow, has this aspect of the setting been... Broken?

 jeff white wrote:

 Galas wrote:
40k marines have the training. 30k are made with a much better process and have much better equipement.

Warhammer is all about degradation, nothing in 40k can compare with what the Empire had in 30k, thats a core part of the setting.

Except, the nuMarines.
Primaris marines are... Better?
Their armor is.... Better?
Somehow, has this aspect of the setting been... Broken?

Yes, the fluff has been broken times and times again.
Just because some people wanted to "advance the story" when 40k was a setting because they lacked the imagination to make their own stories. Well done guys, well done GW.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If I want a mass army give me 30k.
If I want spec ops give me 40k.

The two different eras of marines exist to do totally different jobs and do them differently. They both reflect the time they live in.

30k Marines have the superior geneseed and slightly superior equipment, but 40k have a wider range of experience and are zealots.

In a battle between the two in an equal numbered battle I would put my money on the 40k marines. They are each adept in all forms of warfare and have the major morale advantage. They are on average going to be far more zealous and I believe this will give them the edge. They will push on and they will endure where the 30k marines would falter.

If they had equal gear then it would come down geneseed versus knowledge and superior morale and when I doubt I put my money on the crazier of the two.

None of this is true.

30k Marines Know no Fear, they just dont have the rule as it would cause a lot of issues in 30k ruleset, consult the fluff to see the repeated comments from the legionaries themselves.

30k marines are just as "spec ops" as 40k marines, each chapter in a legion, and by extension, company, has its own modus operadii, some legions are more specialised than others, world eaters have devestator Companies for example, which is quite a horrible thought.

30k marines have vastly superior equipment on the whole, or at least access to it, including specialist equipment that are now relics in 40k (solarite power fist, calabanite warblades etc.)

30k marines are just as zealous as 40k ones, if not more so, as the Big E is walking about and so are the primarchs, 40k simply has nothing on that level, most fanatically believed in the imperial truth, while others fanatically believed in the Big E or the primarchs, which sadly is what led to the heresy in the end, following blindly your primarch or having your utter faith in the imperial truth shown to be a massive lie....

So superior gear, equal or better morale (id edge to equal), better geneseed (sometimes, world eaters and emps children did some funky stuff, and raven guard), superior knowledge and morale.

Long story short, the fluff does not support the 40k marines being superior in any way.

40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Animus wrote:
40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Can you cite anything that supports any of that, I know primaris are designed to be superior, thats fine, but the rest is simply untrue.

The point is... Is training really that important? You have normal humans like Yarrick that are the top end of the human race, with hundred of years thanks to special threatments, and they cant compare with a space marine.
It isnt training what makes an Space marine. It isnt morale. Is the geneseed that made them superhumans, is their equipement.
Space Marines arent the only superhumans of the Imperium. Assasins for example, are biologically and cybernetically upgraded to be weapons even more powerfull than marines.
So, Ill repeat myself. Geneseed and equipement is what makes a Space marine, and both of those are much better in 30k.
And... Im gonna ignore Primaris in this.

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:
40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Can you cite anything that supports any of that, I know primaris are designed to be superior, thats fine, but the rest is simply untrue.

Of course. The latest Space Marine codex talks about it on page 9. The oldest occurrence that I know is codex Ultramarines also page 9.

Codex Space Marines wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in
the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions.
These defects had been exacerbated by the
accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques
needed to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed
that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the
resultant physical and mental corruption to
turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So
had the Emperor’s great plan contained the
seeds of its own downfall.

One of the key objectives of the new Codex
Astartes was to recognise and expunge these
genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex
Astartes decreed that Space Marines would
forever more be created and trained in a more
measured fashion. The genetic banks used to
create Astartes implants would be carefully
monitored and scrutinised for any defects.
Cultivated organs would be subject to the
most stringent tests of purity. Young initiates
would undergo trials of suitability before they
were accepted, and only those of the very
sternest character would be chosen.

That says it's what Girlyman thinks not that it's true. It could just be he doesn't want to admit that the corruption happened because of the various Marine-Primarch relationships.

pm713 wrote:
That says it's what Girlyman thinks not that it's true. It could just be he doesn't want to admit that the corruption happened because of the various Marine-Primarch relationships.

given the breaking up of the Legions it sounds to me like Gulliman admitted that aspect was in play too.

pm713 wrote:
That says it's what Girlyman thinks not that it's true. It could just be he doesn't want to admit that the corruption happened because of the various Marine-Primarch relationships.

Guilliman's belief was that the weaknesses led to corruption, not that the weaknesses existed.

Ask Bjorn the Fell-Handed what he thinks the Space Wolves have done to their legacy.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bjorn_the_Fell_Handed

The real question is, is the Guard and Navy better in 30K than 40K. A few thousand marines are irrelevant to the millions of regiments fighting, and the navies above them.

A chapter of one thousand 40k marines can hold back entire legions, of tens or hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines, whom most are 30k veterans.

I know it's just whimsical writing on GWs part, but it happens like all the time

Animus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:
40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Can you cite anything that supports any of that, I know primaris are designed to be superior, thats fine, but the rest is simply untrue.

Of course. The latest Space Marine codex talks about it on page 9. The oldest occurrence that I know is codex Ultramarines also page 9.

Codex Space Marines wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in
the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions.
These defects had been exacerbated by the
accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques
needed to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed
that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the
resultant physical and mental corruption to
turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So
had the Emperor’s great plan contained the
seeds of its own downfall.

One of the key objectives of the new Codex
Astartes was to recognise and expunge these
genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex
Astartes decreed that Space Marines would
forever more be created and trained in a more
measured fashion. The genetic banks used to
create Astartes implants would be carefully
monitored and scrutinised for any defects.
Cultivated organs would be subject to the
most stringent tests of purity. Young initiates
would undergo trials of suitability before they
were accepted, and only those of the very
sternest character would be chosen.

Thanks dude, That is just Guillians opinion and frankly, not worth much, we have first hand accounts of why the primarchs fell and it had nothing to do with the gene seed process, it was the primarchs and the zealous belief in them that dragged the legions down with them, the eaters fell because of Angron, the Children because of Fulgrim, Iron warriors, Perturabo etc.

The Codex attempted to rid the genetic weakness of legions that did not have a genetic weakness, it failed, the marine creation process degraded and fell into ritual (not all chapters) since the heresy, this led to a decline in aspirants passing and becoming marines, as the process was not fully understood anymore (not all chapters), the testing of the gene seed also failed as it still regressed.

Basically nothing in that statement contradicts any of the established fluff showing the legions as superior version of the space marine, until primaris came along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
The real question is, is the Guard and Navy better in 30K than 40K. A few thousand marines are irrelevant to the millions of regiments fighting, and the navies above them.

this one is easy, Hell to the yes they are, as they are one and the same thing, better equipment, more focused supply chain, insane tech available to them compared to 40k.

But the normal grunt on the ground is the same, fella with a lasgun, just everything else is dialled to 11

Nerak wrote:Gear:
While all of the 40k marines things are hand crafted and they have access to artifacts that's stood the test of time, the 30k marines gear was just better as far as I understand it. Much technology has been lost since then so I'd assume 30k stuff is better then 40k stuff.
Point 30k

 Galas wrote:
Warhammer is all about degradation, nothing in 40k can compare with what the Empire had in 30k, thats a core part of the setting.

jeff white wrote:
Except, the nuMarines.
Primaris marines are... Better?
Their armor is.... Better?
Somehow, has this aspect of the setting been... Broken?

Modern power armour has actually advanced steadily in the setting, Corvus is comparable to MKIV with a better electronics suite, which was improved upon in MKVII, which was improved upon in MKVIII. If anything the Tacticus armour may explain why the introduction of the Errant pattern seemed so stunted (combination of diverted resources and design bleed-through).

As for Primaris Marines themselves- they are a 30k era project, manned and maintained by someone who was alive during that era, one would also assume they were initially recruited in the manner that 30k marines were.

Meh, I'd say 40k space marines are better than the 30k ones. Mostly because of what the 40k ones face are much greater enemies than the 30k ones ever came across. Sure there was the heresy, but they never faced anything like the traitor marines, or demons, tyranids and so forth. The 40k marines are prepared, trained and are much more disciplined in their art of war. They are filled with much more wrath and hate than their ancient brothers. A standard 30k marines from the great crusade would not match up against a 40k marine who has seen the horrors of the current galaxy and lived.