Successors of Successors?

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**Yougottapaythetrolltoll**

I was wondering if there are any Space Marine Successor chapters that had managed to make successors themselves. So far the only ones I was able to come across was the Dark Sons who were Descended from the Novamarines.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Depends on what you define a "successor" chapter is.

In most usage of the term (at least in a Space Marine sense) it means that the successor chapter comes from the same genetic lineage as it's predecessor. By definition, this can only apply to the "big 9" loyalist Space Marine Legions of yore, as no other chapter has their own primarch.

However there have been instances where an elder chapter took on a younger one as a student, such as the Black Templars with the Celestial Lions, the Dark Sons and the Novamarines as you mentioned, and the Astral Claws with the Tiger Claws (although in the latter case, the Tiger Claws were eventually absorbed into the Astral Claws proper, before both eventually became the Red Corsairs).

In addition, I think there are instances of fluff where the geneseed of one chapter came solely from another Successor Chapter, technically meaning that the latter is the gene progenitor of the former. However both are also technically the successor of whichever legion their primarch belonged to. Obviously, in such cases both chapters are very close.

**BrianDavion**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Depends on what you define a "successor" chapter is.

In most usage of the term (at least in a Space Marine sense) it means that the successor chapter comes from the same genetic lineage as it's predecessor. By definition, this can only apply to the "big 9" loyalist Space Marine Legions of yore, as no other chapter has their own primarch.

However there have been instances where an elder chapter took on a younger one as a student, such as the Black Templars with the Celestial Lions, the Dark Sons and the Novamarines as you mentioned, and the Astral Claws with the Tiger Claws (although in the latter case, the Tiger Claws were eventually absorbed into the Astral Claws proper, before both eventually became the Red Corsairs).

In addition, I think there are instances of fluff where the geneseed of one chapter came solely from another Successor Chapter, technically meaning that the latter is the gene progenitor of the former. However both are also technically the successor of whichever legion their primarch belonged to. Obviously, in such cases both chapters are very close.

actually you're wrong. sucessor chapters can indeed be spring from sucessor chapters. the Tiger claws where quite specificly noted as being an astral claws sucessor

**MechaEmperor7000**

I said "in most cases" because I was aware there were instances where the term "successor" was used differently. This is pretty much the result of different GW writers using the terms however they see fit.

Again, sometimes a single successor chapter provides almost all of the geneseed samples for the founding or permanently "loans" warriors to another chapter. In some sources this constitutes them being a successor. Such sources still note which Legion the successor descends from (always identical to their "predecessor" chapter, for obvious reasons). This seems to be the case for the majority of successors of successors, since they almost all come from the Badab War supplement from Forge World (again, almost, not all. Skull Bearers are hinted to be a successor of a successor but noted this was suspect).

As for the Codex: Space Marine source, under "Unknown Foundings" it specifically states that a chapter traces it's lineage to one of the loyalist first founding legions by genetics which, again, is usually how the term "Successor Chapter" is used.

**kingleir**

Aren't there First founding chapters missing certain pieces of their geneseed or having flaws?

Certainly a second generation chapter could have similar failings that would make their geneseed distinct from their parent.

The successor of the successor would then be distinguishable as a Third generation chapter and not just another second generation chapter.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's implied that the geneseed between the different primarchs have some difference between them (possibly causing organ rejection), which is why the First Founding chapters who do have missing organs don't simply look to another chapter for replacements. So when they say "genetic lineage" they mean it quite literally; these marines have organs in them that are genetically identical (more or less, for a "hollywood" version of genetics) to that of their primarchs.

Plus it makes little sense to take the geneseed of a chapter that is missing more organs than it's parent chapter when the parent chapter still exists.

**kingleir**

It makes no sense to use any geneseed but that that has every organ intact, but they do, probably because they have to.

It is also possible that the defect that makes them individual also has a silver lining, any number of positive effects that would make using it again a viable option.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Whenever they found another Chapter, it is done so at Mars where they store the Geneseed Tithes. They don't go out and ask for the Geneseed from existing chapters. In such a vast library of geneseed, there's really no point in selecting one with even more known defects when, quite literally, a full set exist just down the shelves.

This is partially why Ultramarine Successors are so prolific; they had no flaws in them and the largest space marine legion during the second founding, hence their genestock is both the most plentiful and the most pure (the other reason being that the only other pure genestock, the Dark Angels, tend to interfere with any Successors they get, so they prefer Ultras just because they're less likely to get in trouble).

As for defects, it is considered heresy to have defected from the genetic norm, even for space marines and even if it's beneficial (just ask the Flame Falcons). A lot of Chapters have been exterminated despite their originally pure genestock simply due to mutations, and many more chapters go to great lengths (to the point of murdering inquisitors) to keep their genetic deviations a secret. The Imperium would not intentionally create marine chapters with even more known defects, especially after the debacle that is the 21st founding.

**Lord Perversor**

There can be a Sucessor of a sucessor if you accept that something can break a chapter apart and still allow each side to rebuild their numbers like it happened with the Sons of Medusa.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Medusa

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Sons of Medusa were kind of special in how they were founded, but the Iron Hands were a First Founding chapter so technically the Sons are no different than, say, the Black Templars.

I'm not aware of they further broke down later on. If you mean their organization, again the Sons were kinda unique and not something that's regularly done.

**Crimson**

Successor of successor is just confused terminology. You're successor of the first founding chapter your gene-seed is from. It doesn't matter if the specific progenoid glands used create the chapter came from Black Templars or Crimson Fists marines, it is still Imperial Fists gene-seed. Most chapters are Ultramarine successors, it doesn't meant that the Ultramarines chapter directly provided the gene-seed.

**kingleir**

Most 3rd+ founding chapters have ultramarines geneseed, but not all of them, why not? It's not because they are lacking the reserves, they are getting perfectly good ultramarines gene seed from the large majority of chapters. It's not to honour the other first foundings or there would a more even split. So that must mean there are other reasons.

An individualising defect in the gene seed could be as little as miscolouring of a single organ. The benefit could be anything. A 0.001% increase in the success of implantation. The same decrease in Geneseed Maturation rates. Thes could be just as easily be considered blessings of the emperor as they could the taint of chaos.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Which geneseed are chosen are usually done with consultation from the chapter masters of various chapters, and usually requires the petition from the Chapter Masters themselves and then be approved by the High Lords of Terra. They generally prefer making Ultramarine successors, but other chapters will often try and prod them to make other successors (this is the case with the Dark Angels; everyone knows that all Dark Angel Successors basically act like a single legion, which is why they don't actually like using their geneseed despite it also being pure). On other occasions, certain groups will try to influence the founding for their own purposes (the Exorcists were basically founded by the Inquisitors as Grey Knight lites).

Finally, only the majority of successors with known progenitors are ultramarines, the vast majority of marine chapters have unknown progenitors so it's unknown exactly what the percentage divide is (and indeed they may actually do try to honour the other first foundings, just that their progenoid glands have such defects or incompatabilities that they simply do not generate enough geneseed for another founding).

**Nightlord1987**

while researching possible successor chapters for myself on various fluff sites, i came across a few successors-of-successors.

Cant really remember most of them, but I'm sure one was a successor of the Executioners chapter. Didnt really think anything of it at the time, but now that I think of it.. does seem strange. Its not like a Codex chapter would be above strength.

Perhaps they claimed a recruitment planet and decided to start a new chapter?

Maybe a 'Promotion" of a successful Captain, to become his own Chapter Master?

a Patch-Over of an under-strength Chapter?

**MechaEmperor7000**

If you look at the publications, most (I think all but one actually, and the one is "alledgedly" a successor of a successor) of the "successors of successors" came from the Badab War series by Forge World. It may be due to canon conflicts, as the Warhammer40k wiki notes that originally it was the Tiger Claws that was noted to have started the badab wars when it was written by Rick Priestly, but later publications named the offending chapter "Astral Claws" and FW decided to reconcile the difference by listing one as the successor of another (the other chapters may have similar reasons for being listed as successors of successors).