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Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

[Haven't seen this posted anywhere else, so shared here for discussion]


POP Goes the MONKEY is a Shapeways storefront that sells not-GW shoulder pads, boarding shields, etc. (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/popbits)

In the last few days he's claiming that Shapeways are removing items from his store ("Latest count is 302 items taken down") and is blaming GW, despite "No official word yet for Shapeways" (https://www.facebook.com/POPgoestheMonkey/)


As expected, this has somewhat split our local community - some people are yelling at GW, others saying POP should have been more original, etc., but also people are pointing out that POP sharing images like this on Twitter (https://twitter.com/PopGoesMonkey) are likely to cause him more problems:

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/07 09:56:01


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

They're got over 1000 items. What have they lost?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're got over 1000 items. What have they lost?


They haven't listed anything yet, but going off this image they shared I'm guessing some not-TS stuff -
Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/07 10:00:17


 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Wales

I'm not surprised. POP brought this upon himself so my sympathy for him is rather low.

While he did use 'original-not-copyrighted-IP' names, his advertising of his items on twitter must have caught him out. Didn't help he specifically said 'I do bits for 40k' and had an actual display at NOVA with his stuff on actual GW models.

Don't get me wrong, GW legal can be arses, but I feel in this case POP was not helping himself and crying about it showed either his inexperience or just feeling that he could go bigger and bigger without covering himself correctly legally.

374th Mechanized 195pts 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Didn't help he specifically said 'I do bits for 40k' and had an actual display at NOVA with his stuff on actual GW models.


Which is all perfectly legal. The only thing that would be illegal in this context would be recasting.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Wales

Pseudomonas wrote:
 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Didn't help he specifically said 'I do bits for 40k' and had an actual display at NOVA with his stuff on actual GW models.


Which is all perfectly legal. The only thing that would be illegal in this context would be recasting.


He was advertising his items on GW models. If he was just advertising his items with nothing else, then it wouldn't be a problem. However, he's effectively using GW minis to advertise his items. That's where the problem is.
Also, I didn't use illegal. I said what it was. Using someone else's IP to demonstrate your IP.

374th Mechanized 195pts 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I'm not surprised. POP brought this upon himself so my sympathy for him is rather low.

While he did use 'original-not-copyrighted-IP' names, his advertising of his items on twitter must have caught him out. Didn't help he specifically said 'I do bits for 40k' and had an actual display at NOVA with his stuff on actual GW models.

Don't get me wrong, GW legal can be arses, but I feel in this case POP was not helping himself and crying about it showed either his inexperience or just feeling that he could go bigger and bigger without covering himself correctly legally.


You'll have to point out where he hasn't "covered himself correctly", because I've yet to see any examples. Using iconography that has historical roots going back thousands of years in some cases is not illegal. Stating you produce aftermarket components for another company's products is not illegal. Making things with a slight curve in them is not copyrightable.

This is Chapterhouse all over again, to the point I'm actually struggling to believe GW are behind it - are they not sick of having their farcical IP overreach explode in their own faces?

EDIT: Freddy, can you point to where the law actually says you can't do that? Because I'm pretty sure I've seen plenty of adverts for stuff like aftermarket car parts that prominently feature the cars the aftermarket parts are made for, their name, and the name of the company that makes them. You can't use *GW's* photos of their own models because they own the copyright on the images, but the models themselves? Fair game as far as I can tell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/07 10:58:16


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Don't forget Shapeways isn't a court of law. If they see a complaint, it looks legit, then it's not worth the trouble of fighting it out.

 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Don't forget Shapeways isn't a court of law. If they see a complaint, it looks legit, then it's not worth the trouble of fighting it out.


But Shapeways are *subject* to the law, and I'm fairly sure a copyright claim has to be legitimate to be enforceable. This could be some bullgak YouTube-style automated takedown system, but if they don't review the complaint and reinstate they'll surely be breaching their own contracts with the seller.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Wales

I'm just saying - I doubt in law terms anything has gone on that's wrong. I should have been clearer, that while he probably has taken every precaution and probably asked for guidance, someone, somewhere will STILL find something to strike.

@Yodhrin, you are correct on the car analogy, but what I was trying to point out that while taking photos of models with your parts on them isn't wrong, I'm betting the fact that it was on social media, at NOVA, etc. Which was probably used by somebody to create hassle for him. Also, I feel you might have hit the nail on the head - GW specifically targeting certain items is to clinical, they'd get the lot.

374th Mechanized 195pts 
   
Made in us
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

 Yodhrin wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Don't forget Shapeways isn't a court of law. If they see a complaint, it looks legit, then it's not worth the trouble of fighting it out.


But Shapeways are *subject* to the law, and I'm fairly sure a copyright claim has to be legitimate to be enforceable. This could be some bullgak YouTube-style automated takedown system, but if they don't review the complaint and reinstate they'll surely be breaching their own contracts with the seller.


Bodies often claim copyright/IP rights on lots of stuff, the law doesn't stipulate that X, Y or Z only the perameters of what you can hold. It take a legal case to establish hard boundaries in case law.

How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 notprop wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Don't forget Shapeways isn't a court of law. If they see a complaint, it looks legit, then it's not worth the trouble of fighting it out.


But Shapeways are *subject* to the law, and I'm fairly sure a copyright claim has to be legitimate to be enforceable. This could be some bullgak YouTube-style automated takedown system, but if they don't review the complaint and reinstate they'll surely be breaching their own contracts with the seller.


Bodies often claim copyright/IP rights on lots of stuff, the law doesn't stipulate that X, Y or Z only the perameters of what you can hold. It take a legal case to establish hard boundaries in case law.


But in this kind of online case claims typically relate to DMCA "safe harbour" provisions, which require the host/seller/provider to respond to copyright claims they recieve, however if the claim is disputed by the producer/seller it's *supposed* to bounce back and place the onus on the claimant to prove their claim is valid by choosing to escalate it to the courts, and if they fail to do so the host/seller/provider has to reinstate whatever was taken down. So if POP chooses to dispute this, which I hope they do, Shapeways must bring back the items unless it does go to a court case.

Now, maybe it is GW, and maybe they are prepared to go to court, but frankly I'd have expected them to begin by threatening POP directly in their customary fashion, and if they haven't(again, assuming it was GW and not some trolling white knight scumbag or rights-claiming vulture bot) it makes me think they're not that confident after Chapterhouse and are hoping businesses will fold out of fear/inconvenience-related losses.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Don't forget Shapeways isn't a court of law. If they see a complaint, it looks legit, then it's not worth the trouble of fighting it out.

My booth was actually next to theirs at Nova, and I was wondering about the items displayed on GW models. I asked their community manager there about their displaying the parts on GW models, and he said they'd discussed it with their lawyers and been told it was fine. I specifically asked in the context of our using only 3rd party miniatures at our booth display, and mentioned the Chapterhouse case.

However, in a separate conversation we also discussed the Star Wars "Uglies" ships they were showing off (they even included a sweet original starship design in the swag bags!) and just how they handle IP infringement claims on the site in general. He said basically if someone claims they have it, they have it, as far as how Shapeways practically approaches it. He also mentioned that it's between the creator and the person claiming infringement to work out.

So with those two things in mind, and given the timing of this happening right after displaying the bits at Nova, I think the following is likely:

1. Shapeways is likely absolutely correct in their legal counsel telling them they can display GW compatible bits on GW models.

2. This practice might, however, have landed the particular bits seller on Shapeways in GW's crosshairs, and Shapeways' policy is to comply with takedown requests.

Long story short, GW has reformed in a lot of ways but it still probably makes sense to avoid using their models in promoting bits if you want to avoid any legal shenanigans!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/07 11:57:51


 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

Again, Shapeways are obligated to comply with the takedown, but they are also obligated under the DMCA's provisions for takedowns to reinstate the subject of the claims if the person being claimed against disputes the claim and the claimant chooses not to escalate to proper legal recourse.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Could it be the creating copies of the citadel models (via photography) to commercially advertise Pop's own product (the custom bits) that GW might take offence to?
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

nareik wrote:
Could it be the creating copies of the citadel models (via photography) to commercially advertise Pop's own product (the custom bits) that GW might take offence to?


They can take all the offence they like, it's not illegal. Copyright for a photo belongs to the individual who takes the photo, not its subject or the owner of its subject. In some places the owner of the subject can insist people not take photos at all without their specific permission, but such prohibitions are still subject to fair use provisions even in commercial situations, and you'd have a job getting a court to back you on preventing aftermarket parts makers from using photos they themselves took of your models with their parts while allowing dozens of third-party retailers to take photos of your products to sell them on their webstores.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver





Albany, NY

The part that makes this all a little weirder is that Shapeways has recently been promoting Pop's stuff as a showcase for their service on the various Shapeways social media channels. It would seem pretty crappy for them to be promoting his stuff as an example of what they can do one day (including having a presence at NOVA and mentioning Pop's presence), then to be pulling his stuff without giving a far shake the next.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Boy I hope they dont come take my 3D printer to stop my Space Warrior pad production.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

Ah, crap. I hope they don't take Stahlgeist Eisenfabrik down. I depend on them for my Kastelan bits, and plan on ordering more.



Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 Yodhrin wrote:
In some places the owner of the subject can insist people not take photos at all without their specific permission, but such prohibitions are still subject to fair use provisions even in commercial situations, and you'd have a job getting a court to back you on preventing aftermarket parts makers from using photos they themselves took of your models with their parts while allowing dozens of third-party retailers to take photos of your products to sell them on their webstores.


My understanding was that there is a limit on fair use of another company's product in your own advertising - if you appear to be suggesting the company who's product you're using is a willing partner in that relationship and they're not it hurts the fair use claim. This is why you'll see a Coke commercial that claims its better than Pepsi, but you'll never see a Coke commercial that shows off what happens when you empty a pack of Mentos into it.

   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

Using GW minis to show how his stuff fits isn't a real legal issue- but it is the sort of thing that gets GW's attention.


Looking over his products, I can see a few that look like direct copies of Citadel decals.

In his Twitter, Pop basically admits to it when he says that "some" of the removed pics were his original designs (implying that "some" and possibly "most" of them were not).

I'm sure that Shapeways just doesn't want to deal with it.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nottingham

Well I'm glad my order has arrived before it vanishes from availability

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

Have a look at my 3d Printed Mierce Miniatures

Previous projects
30k Iron Warriors (11k+)
Full first company Crimson Fists
Zone Mortalis (unfinished)
Classic high elf bloodbowl team 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler






beast_gts wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're got over 1000 items. What have they lost?


They haven't listed anything yet, but going off this image they shared I'm guessing some not-TS stuff -
Spoiler:


Just checked and those shields are still there under individual items. Looking through the stuff, the items that were similar to the FW items appears to be missing.

With GW being present at more events, it's likely they didn't like how blatant POP was on showing off his stuff.
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 silent25 wrote:
With GW being present at more events, it's likely they didn't like how blatant POP was on showing off his stuff.

Given what was and wasn't taken down, I wonder if it wasn't the guys at Forge World who called this in.


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

There's no legal distinction. Forge World isn't a separate legal entity from GW.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

"New" GW everyone.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Dang should of grabbed some shields before it went away.

oh well.

Gw has to protect their IP one way or another.

Use it or lose it.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Yes, they have to protect it from things that are illegitimately encroaching on it.

They have a long history of getting what this looks like very very wrong.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

There is a legal distinction between something being "made for 40k" and being "compatible with" which is what CH/Nick got sued over. You cannot state that the product is made exclusively for 40k (or other property) but you are allowed to state that your product fits or is compatible with a given object as that implies an open ended use as opposed to a specific intended purpose.

Prior to the lawsuit CH had specifically advertised their stuff as "Space Marine Shoulder Pad" or "Space Marine Rhino Door" which implies that it is a GW product and exclusively works with Space Marine items which CH does not own the rights to, after the lawsuit they switched to using the phrase "Compatible with Space Marine Rhinos" which is legally distinct language and allowed under Fair Use and for comparison purposes. The same is true if you were marketing a phone case as an "iPhone 6 case" vs "phone case compatible with iPhone 6" the first usage implies that it is a branded item/property with a specific use, the second second denotes that it can be used with an iPhone but isn't exclusive. It's a fine line and can be confusing but it's legal wrangling.

I had just just been looking at the Pop products last weekend and most of their listings used terms like "space marine x", or "made for 40k" which immediately made me think of Chris Rock saying: I think George Lucas gonna to sue somebody! (in this case it being GW instead) How you phrase things in your advertising is subtle but has a major impact in how it's defined legally and in Pop's case they seem to have missed that distinction.

Pop might be mad that some of their products were taken down, but that's just Shapeways covering their ass after likely receiving a complaint. Pop would probably feel much more pissed off if he got a C&D, or if GW went right to lodging a full blown suit without warning. (which happened to me as part of the CH case) They should use this moment to step back and review the language they use to promote their products and fix some of the stuff that is blatant rip offs of GW logos. People can produce 3rd party stuff just fine but there is a set of legal parameters that you have to work within, which Pop has not been doing properly.

It's important to remember that the GW/CH case is not a single win or loss, there were almost 200 claims in the complaint and while CH/Nick defended himself against a majority of them about 30% of the complaints were found to be valid and he had to restructure a lot of the language he used to advertise so that he could comply with the courts ruling. Prior to the suit CH had cited Fair Use as a roadmap to say and do whatever he wanted which was a very flawed understanding of what Fair Use actually allows you to do. You can use GW models in your own pictures, you can make 3rd party stuff and you can demonstrate or state it's compatibility with a given product, but you can't cite it as being "for" a GW product.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/07 20:29:16


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

@paulson games: Like how 'fake' lego claims it is 'compatible with all major miniature building block brands' or whatever?
   
 
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