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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I wanted a grey knights army of 2000 points and was wondering what load outs would be optimal with the following: grand master in nemesis dreadnight, grand master voldus, lord kaldor draigo, three five man strike squads, nemsis dreadnight, stormraven gunship, and Roboute Guilliman. i was wondering if I should take daemon hanmmers, swords, dreadfists, gatling psilencer, astral aim, hurricane bolters, or whats the best options to take. Opinions on whats competitive is appreciated. Thanks,
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Why not go to the Grey Knights Tactica thread and ask there?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Flamers suck, takes psylencers, double fist is best right now, voldus isn't good in grey Knights lists, he steals three powers from other units. Double sword strike squads are best strike squads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/10 17:00:48


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Voldus doesn't steal anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).


You put voldus in non grey knight lists. That's his only role, to support non grey knight lists. The reasons above also explain why grey knight librarians are useless.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).

You don't HAVE to cast every power you give him. What you do is determine his position and choose powers based off if you think it'll be handy. He isn't STEALING anything unless you decide to cast everything he's got. That's super flawed thinking.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).

You don't HAVE to cast every power you give him. What you do is determine his position and choose powers based off if you think it'll be handy. He isn't STEALING anything unless you decide to cast everything he's got. That's super flawed thinking.

If you aren't casting multiple powers with him regularly then his points are wasted and you could have taken a cheaper alternative.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).

You don't HAVE to cast every power you give him. What you do is determine his position and choose powers based off if you think it'll be handy. He isn't STEALING anything unless you decide to cast everything he's got. That's super flawed thinking.

If you aren't casting multiple powers with him regularly then his points are wasted and you could have taken a cheaper alternative.

He's basically a Librarian with a Grandmaster statline. You pay for flexibility to do those potential things. You aren't wasting anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Get Draigo.

Add a stormraven or two and now you can alpha strike most units off the board on turn one!

   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Voldus doesn't steal anything.

He kinda does.

In matched play you can only cast a power (other than smite) once that turn and smite can only be cast once by each psyker.

So if Voldus is casting two powers + smite then that's a big chunk out of the powers that other units can use and since they mostly only have one+smite that could well be a couple of units that can now only smite.

If you aren't doing that with him then he just gets to smite once and his cost is wasted. He's great in smaller games, in larger games he's a liability (unless the psychic phase rules get amended to not screw armies with lots of psykers).

You don't HAVE to cast every power you give him. What you do is determine his position and choose powers based off if you think it'll be handy. He isn't STEALING anything unless you decide to cast everything he's got. That's super flawed thinking.

If you aren't casting multiple powers with him regularly then his points are wasted and you could have taken a cheaper alternative.

He's basically a Librarian with a Grandmaster statline. You pay for flexibility to do those potential things. You aren't wasting anything.


40k Internet Wisdom dictates that if you aren't using EVERY rule on a model EVERY turn then it's defined as "situational" and is therefore always itter crap.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Voldus depends on the rest of your army. Being able to DS him and run Smite, Purge Soul, and Vortex all in the same turn is devastating. You just set up other units to Smite, Hammerhand, and Gate.

Units can still Smite. If he casts 3 powers then you are limited on your options, but you aren't void of options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 03:09:16


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Most GK players take Gate on the vast majority of their units, to assist with mid-game mobility. Voldus is the third best HQ after the GMDK and Draigo, with Voldus' hammer being his selling point as well as his ability to cast a few non-Gate spells.

As with every GK unit, have a reason to include him and Voldus will do fine for you.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Voldus to me doesn't belong in a Grey Knights army, for these reasons:

1. A 4++ is easily slain, and you're already hurting for points. You don't need any more big, singular elite models running around.

2. He shouldn't be your warlord, because Lore Master is not a good trait when you're already casting your limit in powers.

3. He is no more efficient at casting powers than anything else. Yes he knows 3, but he'll rarely get to use all 3. That's one of his big advantages, is 3 powers. But you can't use 3, it's like he doesn't have them. The extra denies *can* be helpful.

4. A Grand Master > Voldus now, because GM's can take relics & a better warlord trait. So you get a 2+/4++ statline, PLUS the Cuirass of Sacrifice for a 5+++, at quite a few points cheaper. Yes the GM loses out on the Malleus. But gaining the Cuirass, a better warlord trait (first to the fray, or whatever is situational), and saving you points on top of all of that is better.

So Voldus is measurably worse than a cheaper option in the codex. But there is good news. You can easily play voldus as a counts-as grand master.

Now, if you're playing Imperium without Grey Knights, Voldus could be justified as an add, because he can gate himself, and throw out purge & vortex. He's a mortal wound machine in that context.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 16:48:51


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

The only Grand Master worth playing is the Grand Master in Nemesis DreadKnight armor. GM's don't bring anything to the table that another unit cannot do better.

At the moment, the best mortal wounding units for the GKs are the Apothecary and the relic banner Ancient.

SJ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 20:00:46


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks! Is mass strike squads, mass nemesis dreadknights, or a mixed list throwing in Guilliman and stormravens more effective? Or does it depend on what you're facing? I was told mass strike squads or mass nemesis dreaknights are optimal for grey knghts. Then I was told to throw in a Draigo, Voldus, Guilliman and stormraven, but that takes up slots for other strike squads and nemesis dreadknights. Or is there no right or wrong answer depending on what different armies you face? Thanks!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




A Stormraven for GK is really good since they can't all DS and their individual units are expensive. You'll want to armor up what you can and Stormravens are baller regardless.

I wouldn't use Draigo, Voldus, Rowboat, and a Stormraven. That's easily over half of your entire army in a standard 2k setup. Strike squads are good and will only get better with the new DG coming up with the 3 damage smites to daemons. I'd feel hard press to put more than two named characters in your army and feel like I have enough bodies.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Guilliman has no place in a GK list. He's far too expensive.

I would absolutely use Draigo if you have the points.

Storm ravens are beast.

Dreadknights without the grand master are downright mediocre.

Grand Masters make solid Warlords for their points if you're skipping named characters and the GMNDK.

Castellan Crowe is a cheap HQ and people will be surprised by his D6 smite. He's not terrible against hordes if you can get him into melee, with his 5-10 attacks. definitely more of a casual games character but fun none the less.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/13 21:15:34


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman has no place in a GK list. He's far too expensive.

I would absolutely use Draigo if you have the points.

Storm ravens are beast.

Dreadknights without the grand master are downright mediocre.

Grand Masters make solid Warlords for their points if you're skipping named characters and the GMNDK.

Castellan Crowe is a cheap HQ and people will be surprised by his D6 smite. He's not terrible against hordes if you can get him into melee, with his 5-10 attacks. definitely more of a casual games character but fun none the less.


I've found I really like the brother champion over good ol Crowe. The guy can lay down quite a bit of wounds and take quite a bit as well. Granted Crowe can do mortal wounds, but to do so he will typically need to get into combat because of that short range where he will A.) Have a crappy weapon and b.) Have to wait out two turns of combat to use his power.

A champ can hammerhand and add his +1 to wound stance to be wounding at worst on a 4+ with D3 wounds ap-3. Most of the time he will wound on 2+ (toughness 1-4) or 3+ ( toughness 5-7). He is overlooked and a pain in my opponents butts. Or take sanctuary for those 2++ saves in combat with a curiass of sacrifice and 5+ feel no pain. Very flexible close combat beast who can deal with most stuff and can deep strike now with strategems. And at such a cheap point cost I like to take him as my second HQ.

Anyway, to the original poster... I find either power armor spam or gmndk spam is your best bet for competition . I honestly find myself using my grey knights in Astra militarum heavy armies now as the gk don't get full use of their abilities on their own. A full squad of 10 power armor with all falchions and stormbolters using psybolts is 40 heavy bolter shots from 1 squad. Then if they can charge (with hammerhand) that is 20 more swings wounding most stuff on 2+ or 3+ ap-2. Keep them near draigo or a grand master with first into the fray and for the rerolls and 10 strike squad knights will munch most units the turn they arrive. That's what I usually add to an imperial soup army.

I could see an army of gmndk all toting psycannons and psilencers being potent and flexible although boring and not fun to play against.

Terminators/paladins are okay this edition. Nothing to be excited about.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Smotejob wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman has no place in a GK list. He's far too expensive.

I would absolutely use Draigo if you have the points.

Storm ravens are beast.

Dreadknights without the grand master are downright mediocre.

Grand Masters make solid Warlords for their points if you're skipping named characters and the GMNDK.

Castellan Crowe is a cheap HQ and people will be surprised by his D6 smite. He's not terrible against hordes if you can get him into melee, with his 5-10 attacks. definitely more of a casual games character but fun none the less.


I've found I really like the brother champion over good ol Crowe. The guy can lay down quite a bit of wounds and take quite a bit as well. Granted Crowe can do mortal wounds, but to do so he will typically need to get into combat because of that short range where he will A.) Have a crappy weapon and b.) Have to wait out two turns of combat to use his power.

A champ can hammerhand and add his +1 to wound stance to be wounding at worst on a 4+ with D3 wounds ap-3. Most of the time he will wound on 2+ (toughness 1-4) or 3+ ( toughness 5-7). He is overlooked and a pain in my opponents butts. Or take sanctuary for those 2++ saves in combat with a curiass of sacrifice and 5+ feel no pain. Very flexible close combat beast who can deal with most stuff and can deep strike now with strategems. And at such a cheap point cost I like to take him as my second HQ.

Anyway, to the original poster... I find either power armor spam or gmndk spam is your best bet for competition . I honestly find myself using my grey knights in Astra militarum heavy armies now as the gk don't get full use of their abilities on their own. A full squad of 10 power armor with all falchions and stormbolters using psybolts is 40 heavy bolter shots from 1 squad. Then if they can charge (with hammerhand) that is 20 more swings wounding most stuff on 2+ or 3+ ap-2. Keep them near draigo or a grand master with first into the fray and for the rerolls and 10 strike squad knights will munch most units the turn they arrive. That's what I usually add to an imperial soup army.

I could see an army of gmndk all toting psycannons and psilencers being potent and flexible although boring and not fun to play against.

Terminators/paladins are okay this edition. Nothing to be excited about.


Yeah I agree here as well. Part of the reason i'm shifting away from GK is their dependence on AM. You really will find them taking up a significant portion of your list. Or, you'll be heavily dependent on Flyers, which doesn't feel like GK anymore either.

Casual games are far more fun with GK.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






What I've been doing is taking a mostly Ultra marines force with bobby G and throwing a GMDK and a strike squad in there. It's pretty dang strong.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman has no place in a GK list. He's far too expensive.

I would absolutely use Draigo if you have the points.

Storm ravens are beast.

Dreadknights without the grand master are downright mediocre.

Grand Masters make solid Warlords for their points if you're skipping named characters and the GMNDK.

Castellan Crowe is a cheap HQ and people will be surprised by his D6 smite. He's not terrible against hordes if you can get him into melee, with his 5-10 attacks. definitely more of a casual games character but fun none the less.

Crowe is garbage.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman has no place in a GK list. He's far too expensive.

I would absolutely use Draigo if you have the points.

Storm ravens are beast.

Dreadknights without the grand master are downright mediocre.

Grand Masters make solid Warlords for their points if you're skipping named characters and the GMNDK.

Castellan Crowe is a cheap HQ and people will be surprised by his D6 smite. He's not terrible against hordes if you can get him into melee, with his 5-10 attacks. definitely more of a casual games character but fun none the less.

Crowe is garbage.


He's a casual games character.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Are there any good forge world models for the grey knights? Thanks.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

BillyN831 wrote:
Are there any good forge world models for the grey knights? Thanks.

Short answer - No

Long answer - FW has a bunch of GK and =][= upgrade bits, hatches, Psycannons, the Doomglave Dreadnought.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Is matched play used in tournaments and how good are paladins compared to strike squads? Any other tips on how to kit out Grey Knights would be appreciated. Thanks.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

BillyN831 wrote:
Is matched play used in tournaments and how good are paladins compared to strike squads? Any other tips on how to kit out Grey Knights would be appreciated. Thanks.


The core matched play is used in tournaments, i believe you're inquiring in regards to the number of times you can attempt to manifest a spell. Let me be explicitly clear: In tournaments you cannot attempt the same spell more than once per psychic phase, nor can you use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

In my humble opinion, strike squads > paladins. And, outside of casual games, paladins have no place in a GK list.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Marmatag wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
Is matched play used in tournaments and how good are paladins compared to strike squads? Any other tips on how to kit out Grey Knights would be appreciated. Thanks.


The core matched play is used in tournaments, i believe you're inquiring in regards to the number of times you can attempt to manifest a spell. Let me be explicitly clear: In tournaments you cannot attempt the same spell more than once per psychic phase, nor can you use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

In my humble opinion, strike squads > paladins. And, outside of casual games, paladins have no place in a GK list.

Except for smite, which you can attempt to manifest multiple times, although any single psyker may only attempt to manifest it once.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Marmatag wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
Is matched play used in tournaments and how good are paladins compared to strike squads? Any other tips on how to kit out Grey Knights would be appreciated. Thanks.


The core matched play is used in tournaments, i believe you're inquiring in regards to the number of times you can attempt to manifest a spell. Let me be explicitly clear: In tournaments you cannot attempt the same spell more than once per psychic phase, nor can you use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

In my humble opinion, strike squads > paladins. And, outside of casual games, paladins have no place in a GK list.

So, in your opinion, GK should only be using their weakest troop choice over their strongest elite choice? Why would anyone do that? Did you means Strikes > GKT?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
Is matched play used in tournaments and how good are paladins compared to strike squads? Any other tips on how to kit out Grey Knights would be appreciated. Thanks.


The core matched play is used in tournaments, i believe you're inquiring in regards to the number of times you can attempt to manifest a spell. Let me be explicitly clear: In tournaments you cannot attempt the same spell more than once per psychic phase, nor can you use the same stratagem more than once per phase.

In my humble opinion, strike squads > paladins. And, outside of casual games, paladins have no place in a GK list.

So, in your opinion, GK should only be using their weakest troop choice over their strongest elite choice? Why would anyone do that? Did you means Strikes > GKT?

SJ

That is my opinion. I don't run any terminator armor outside of HQs in my competitive GK army.

Strikes >Paladins. Strikes are also better than terminators. Paladins and GKT are absurdly expensive for what you get. They're slow, nearly immobile once they disembark/deep strike in, and they don't have the offensive output to deal with what you see in the meta. You are far better off with lots of bodies and way more storm bolter dice, and the ability to be in more than 1 place at once with a lot of bodies.

Not to mention, 10 strike marines =40 storm bolter dice, which is the ideal use case for our ammunition stratagem, to turn them into 40 heavy bolter dice, and with astral aim they ignore cover and can shoot through walls.

What can paladins do, that strike marines cannot do? This isn't the survive edition. This is the glass cannon edition. Paladins die super fast, and each loss is crushing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/22 23:02:52


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
 
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