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Made in ie
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





So, although I more than understand that 40k is a Grimdark universe where everything is sad and terrible and unhappy, but I was wondering, what potential "happy endings" can be achieved. Not on a galactic scale, since it seems everything's constantly going downhill but never ending, but on a personal level. What happy lives can individual characters achieve inthe end, after all their struggle? I've been trying to decide it via factions, trying to decide which ones even CAN achieve a happy ending and which ones can't, and this is what I have so far. Opinions, filling in the holes in my list and everything else would be much appreciated.

-Chaos
It seems that if you're in the forces of Chaos, there actually is a clear way to "win", by ascending to Daemon Princedom. Becoming immortal with your own world to do as you please seems like a pretty ideal way to end up. Seeing as upon achieving this most characters (I'm looking at you, Primarchs) tend to stop caring about the mortal world, it seems like this is the happy ending most of the Chaos followers are going for.

-Eldar
So, seeing as the nature of Eldar souls, it seems that you can't really get a happy ending as the Eldar. The Corsairs need to keep fighting and surviving since they can't die, the Craftworld Eldar have their souls at constant risk as soon as their infinity circuit is corrupted. I'm actually not too aware of Harlequin, Exodite and Ynnari fluff. To my knowledge, Exodite's have their soul kind of absorbed into the planet like the Harmony ending of Civ Beyond Earth, but I'm not sure if their souls are still at risk after that. Could a Slaaneshi daemon still get its claws into their soul if it's been absorbed by the planet? Harlequin I also don't know much what happens to their soul, so that knowledge would be appreciated. There doesn't seem to be much fluff on the Ynnari. I know their soul is absorbed by Ynnead, but there's still room for a dark revelation about how exactly that works, so I'm not sure.

-Dark Eldar
The Dark Eldar society seems to be a combination of gangs, the most treacherous of political scenes and a hyena pack. Given that the most powerful of them, Vect, is still at constant risk of betrayal, I feel the best these guys are getting is a life of hedonism mixed with paranoia that's constantly at risk of being taken away.

-Orks
The Orks are similar enough to the Dark Eldar in that, given that their happy ending is war, the best you're getting here is becoming powerful and continuing fighting, although sincethat's at constant risk of being taken away I don't know if it counts as an "Ending". I know there was a Warboss who really achieved a happy ending by attacking the Eye of Terror and being "punished" by being ressurrected everyday with his WAAAGH! to die fighting Khornate daemons, so I guess that works.

-T'au
For the life of me, I can't remember whether T'au can retire. I think the lore for Aun'El involve him being about to retire and I've heard that Shas'O generals are allowed to, but I'm not sure. If you're wounded to a point where you can't be brought back to fighting force or if you become just to old, what happens in the T'au Empire? Are you just euthanized, allowed retire, or what?

-Imperial Guard
I'm fairly sure that the Imperial Guard can retire, and can end up retiring to a world they took in order to keep order and be garrisoned there in case of counter-attack, so I'd imagine taking a paradise world and being allowed retire there is the ideal life for these guys, although I might be wrong.

-Space Marines
I don't think Space Marines can retire, so I'm fairly sure their life is just unending service. All of their endings pretty much must be falling in battle, or perhaps being interred in a Dreadnought, which seems fairly ad as its a life of miserable slumber permeated by fighting.

-Tyranids
Not really much here. Retirement for these guys is enjoyed passing through the stomach of the hiveship.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 19:28:19


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

The whole Daemon Prince is a bit of a mixed ending. Immortal? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Utterly enslaved to the whim of the gods? Also yes. As a Daemon Prince, you are a very valuable and mighty puppet, but you are still just that, a puppet. A pawn to be moved around, just on a bigger board now.


And as far as Orks, I think your focus on "happy retirement" is misplaced with them. To an Ork, they are living their happy ending. They have all of their needs looked for; food and fuel comes with them in spores and squigs, money is grown as teef and the only thing that an Ork wants for their life is constant fighting. And boy howdy does their society produce that. While Orks are all scrappy and dirty and "primitive", there is a good case to be made that their society is the happiest one in 40k by an enormous margin. They don't need to retire, why would they want to?

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Hmmm, the only happy ending available to the Eldar is javing their soul absorbed by either Cegorach or Ynnead.

Considering both are lovecraftian entities whose nature and motivation is fantastically suspect I'm not exactly sold on that.

Perhaps the 'happiest' ending available to eldar is to have your soul utterly annihilated by the Avatar of Khaine as a Young King.

It's the only surefire way to not get devoured by Slaanesh. Anything else is a calculated risk (oh, and exodite world spirits can be broken or tapped just like infinity circuits. They're basically infinity circuits, but through a planet rather than a starship).

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 18:37:13


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady





drinking tea in the snow

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


Eh, could be worse.

realism is a lie
 
   
Made in ie
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





 curran12 wrote:
The whole Daemon Prince is a bit of a mixed ending. Immortal? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Utterly enslaved to the whim of the gods? Also yes. As a Daemon Prince, you are a very valuable and mighty puppet, but you are still just that, a puppet. A pawn to be moved around, just on a bigger board now.


And as far as Orks, I think your focus on "happy retirement" is misplaced with them. To an Ork, they are living their happy ending. They have all of their needs looked for; food and fuel comes with them in spores and squigs, money is grown as teef and the only thing that an Ork wants for their life is constant fighting. And boy howdy does their society produce that. While Orks are all scrappy and dirty and "primitive", there is a good case to be made that their society is the happiest one in 40k by an enormous margin. They don't need to retire, why would they want to?


Orks are definitely happy, but they don't get a happy ending, seeing as the only way the adventures of their life can come to an end is with death. More of a happy life with a quick end. But probably the best life one can be.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 19:30:18


 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

Any loyal imperial will find happiness in a life spent in the service of the imperium.

Wouldn't you say so as well, citizen?

Remember, happiness is mandatory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 21:01:14


"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Torch-Wielding Lunatic





Necrons generally seem to either want to find flesh bodies to inhabit, or restore their control of the galaxy. So I guess that's their happy endings.

To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.


I agree with this sooo, so, so much. While the darkness is a very important part to the setting, having that any only that would leave it redundant imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 01:33:21


Innocence proves nothing. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
The whole Daemon Prince is a bit of a mixed ending. Immortal? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Utterly enslaved to the whim of the gods? Also yes. As a Daemon Prince, you are a very valuable and mighty puppet, but you are still just that, a puppet. A pawn to be moved around, just on a bigger board now.


And as far as Orks, I think your focus on "happy retirement" is misplaced with them. To an Ork, they are living their happy ending. They have all of their needs looked for; food and fuel comes with them in spores and squigs, money is grown as teef and the only thing that an Ork wants for their life is constant fighting. And boy howdy does their society produce that. While Orks are all scrappy and dirty and "primitive", there is a good case to be made that their society is the happiest one in 40k by an enormous margin. They don't need to retire, why would they want to?


Orks are definitely happy, but they don't get a happy ending, seeing as the only way the adventures of their life can come to an end is with death. More of a happy life with a quick end. But probably the best life one can be.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.


I agree, it really depends on your definition of happiness as well circumstance. Many people live in vast dystopia hives in 40k, and there are economic differences so some will live far better than others (whether that is fair or not is up to debate but those living well off would be happy for our purposes), but equally there are agri worlds where most of the settlers may have miles of lands to themselves and pretty much left to themselves as long as they grow their crops and turn it in each season. At that point it is really the same life any farmer today has. Also wars don't happen to planets every generation, some planets may even go millenia without a particular damaging war like we read about in the books where entire planets are consumed, those are exceptions rather than the norm otherwise the Imperium would run out of planets in 10,000 years haha. But also we have an outside perspective, many humans will still feel joy and love in their lives even if the quality of it is far worse than today's standards. For example say someone from classical/medieval times. We would say it was a pretty hard life, yet to them it was normal, there may hardships but they still enjoyed life and the made the most of it. So while the setting is grimdark no doubt and the society also reflects this, on a personal level it is possible for someone to have a satisfyingly long and relatively happy life, but that depends on their nature. Maybe someone doesn't mind paperwork or herding grox, others may hate it more than anything else in the world.
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

The Eldar turn their obsessive / excessive personality issues towards helping others, being empathetic and selfless.

They no longer need to wear soulstones or escape souldrain as their new lives slowly 'corrupt' Slaanesh into a god of selfless kittentickling and niceness.
   
Made in es
Swift Swooping Hawk





nareik wrote:
The Eldar turn their obsessive / excessive personality issues towards helping others, being empathetic and selfless.

They no longer need to wear soulstones or escape souldrain as their new lives slowly 'corrupt' Slaanesh into a god of selfless kittentickling and niceness.


The Eldar happy ending is pretty much the Rhana Dhandra, they go down once and for all but take the Chaos Gods with them, no longer alive but their souls are safe for all eternity.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 curran12 wrote:
The whole Daemon Prince is a bit of a mixed ending. Immortal? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Utterly enslaved to the whim of the gods? Also yes. As a Daemon Prince, you are a very valuable and mighty puppet, but you are still just that, a puppet. A pawn to be moved around, just on a bigger board now.


And as far as Orks, I think your focus on "happy retirement" is misplaced with them. To an Ork, they are living their happy ending. They have all of their needs looked for; food and fuel comes with them in spores and squigs, money is grown as teef and the only thing that an Ork wants for their life is constant fighting. And boy howdy does their society produce that. While Orks are all scrappy and dirty and "primitive", there is a good case to be made that their society is the happiest one in 40k by an enormous margin. They don't need to retire, why would they want to?


Well at least two out of them are living their happy ending now.

Orks-they are literally living the dream.
Nids-a happy ending is a full belly.
IG do retire. Like Roman veterans older ones are settled down on the territory they are at.
Marines: simmilar to orks. They have been brainwashed into being that fighting for the Spazz EMprah is the It thing for them.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I've always had a thought on how 40k ends happy, but it's only head-canon. It works like this:

We know the pylons on Cadia kept the Eye contained, and now we know other pylon worlds existed. It seems apparent the pylons are necron technology, so advanced that it may be lost even to them. We also know, from the Necron background, that the warp was once at peace. It was only the introduction of the mortal races that made it a nightmare of unconscious madness and gods made of the spirits of the universe.

So... mass produce the pylons. Put them everywhere, share the knowledge of how to make them with every race. Shut the warp off from the mortal plane. Starve the chaos gods. Without access to our side of existence, the gods have nothing to fuel them. No emotions, no souls, no nothing. In time, they fade away into legend, as if they never existed. The warp is quiet, and ships may ply the warp without need of the astronomicon, because it is now a smooth, predictable place to be.

Without the social psychic field, Ork minds clear, and can think of something other than conflict. They might wind up allied to the Tau, for all we know.

That would be the ultimate happy ending, and everyone could at last turn their attentions from ancient conflict in the Imperium, to uniting against the Tyranid threat.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Lord Perversor wrote:
nareik wrote:
The Eldar turn their obsessive / excessive personality issues towards helping others, being empathetic and selfless.

They no longer need to wear soulstones or escape souldrain as their new lives slowly 'corrupt' Slaanesh into a god of selfless kittentickling and niceness.


The Eldar happy ending is pretty much the Rhana Dhandra, they go down once and for all but take the Chaos Gods with them, no longer alive but their souls are safe for all eternity.

Couldn't Eldar reincarnate before Chaos? So if Chaos dies then all the Eldar are coming back but stronger and undying.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Only Slaaneshi Princes get happy endings if you catch my drift

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Chaos space Marine getting his soul back off the chaos gods, he won, he died, but he died free.

Ref: Deamon world
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





North Carolina

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
The whole Daemon Prince is a bit of a mixed ending. Immortal? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Utterly enslaved to the whim of the gods? Also yes. As a Daemon Prince, you are a very valuable and mighty puppet, but you are still just that, a puppet. A pawn to be moved around, just on a bigger board now.


And as far as Orks, I think your focus on "happy retirement" is misplaced with them. To an Ork, they are living their happy ending. They have all of their needs looked for; food and fuel comes with them in spores and squigs, money is grown as teef and the only thing that an Ork wants for their life is constant fighting. And boy howdy does their society produce that. While Orks are all scrappy and dirty and "primitive", there is a good case to be made that their society is the happiest one in 40k by an enormous margin. They don't need to retire, why would they want to?


Orks are definitely happy, but they don't get a happy ending, seeing as the only way the adventures of their life can come to an end is with death. More of a happy life with a quick end. But probably the best life one can be.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.





Orks never truly die, unless special procedures are taken to end an infestation. And even that is no guarantee. They are never truly defeated, either. When individual Orks die, sooner or later, the spores they release will soon produce several thousand copies of the dead Ork. And deyz can come bak fer annuva go, ya see? Orkz iz made fer foightin' and winnin', ya humie git. It's like a kind of immortality for an Ork. Death in a way isn't forever. And who would care as long as there is some fun krumpin' to be done?


I agree with you 100% on the second part. There comes a point where GRIMDARK becomes GRIMDERP. And without a bit of noblebright (and in-universe common sense) to maintain equalibrium, you have a setting that's so freakin' dark, depressing, and full of stupid pill junkies as to be ridiculous. I find people who complain about the least little positive thing in 40k spoiling the GRIMDERP to be as annoying as those who slam people's models/conversions for not fitting "the aesthetic". It's a big galaxy and there is room for a bit of everything.

Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.

Yes they do, but there is a reason why we never hear those stories. That is not what 40k is about. 40k is not about the story of how farmer Sillius Soddus on the peaceful, isolated agri-world Quaintius III had a record harvest of sugar beets and won the love of his childhood sweetheart at the local village fair. 40k is the story about how Eldar raiders then invaded Quaintius III and carried off the entire population to the Dark City, one of many such raids they conducted on worlds in the sector before finally being stopped by a Chapter of heroic SPACE MARINES (and countless unmentioned PDF troopers that died horrible deaths and were essential to the success of the campaign but forgotten the moment they died).
The grimdarkness in 40k works because it is juxtaposed with the decency and normalcy of our comfortable 21st-century Western world. It does not need in-universe 'noblebright' stories for contrast. That said, a story can have a happy end while still being grimdark, and many if not most 40k stories actually do have a more or less happy end. The universe as a whole however, should remain tragically futile so that ultimately all those 'happy end stories' will have been meaningless in the greater whole of things. Darkness works best when it is brightened by a glimmer of hope that then gets extinguished again. So while there is room for a bit of happiness in individual stories, it only works as long as it eventually gets extinguished again. The greater story should remain one of despair.

Also, on a fluff note: It is heavily suggested people in 40k retain a degree of sentience after death.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That said, a story can have a happy end while still being grimdark, and many if not most 40k stories actually do have a more or less happy end.
Basically orks.
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Also, on a fluff note: It is heavily suggested people in 40k retain a degree of sentience after death.
Generally, only for long enough for that every one of their personal inadequacies, quirks and desires causes them to be torn apart and consumed by the daemonic forces that correspond to those specific inadequacies, quirks and desires.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/15 11:44:23


 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






nareik wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
That said, a story can have a happy end while still being grimdark, and many if not most 40k stories actually do have a more or less happy end.
Basically orks.

Orks are super happy. The eternal war of 40k is paradise to them. But happy for them is not what a human would see as happiness.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






 Iron_Captain wrote:

The grimdarkness in 40k works because it is juxtaposed with the decency and normalcy of our comfortable 21st-century Western world. It does not need in-universe 'noblebright' stories for contrast. That said, a story can have a happy end while still being grimdark, and many if not most 40k stories actually do have a more or less happy end. The universe as a whole however, should remain tragically futile so that ultimately all those 'happy end stories' will have been meaningless in the greater whole of things. Darkness works best when it is brightened by a glimmer of hope that then gets extinguished again. So while there is room for a bit of happiness in individual stories, it only works as long as it eventually gets extinguished again. The greater story should remain one of despair.


Damn.

For months I've been trying to come up with something that succinctly sums up how I feel about the grimdark/noblebright balance in 40k and failing miserably, and here you come and put it down word-perfect!

Absolutely, perfectly accurate

I would argue that the darkness works because there is a continual, but diminishing glimmer of hope (or series of glimmers). If it was a single story then having a downer ending where all hope is lost is perfectly valid. In order to keep 40k rolling you need to replace one lost hope with the next, slightly more desperate one.

Either way, it's not looking good...

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

-Chaos
It seems that if you're in the forces of Chaos, there actually is a clear way to "win", by ascending to Daemon Princedom. Becoming immortal with your own world to do as you please seems like a pretty ideal way to end up. Seeing as upon achieving this most characters (I'm looking at you, Primarchs) tend to stop caring about the mortal world, it seems like this is the happy ending most of the Chaos followers are going for.


Daemon Princes aren't happy, by and large. Khorne and Slaanesh daemons engage in their vices nonstop, true, but their deity curses them to never feel satiated. They're drug addicts who spend eternity chasing the dragon. Tzeentch is okay, but he's even more capricious than the other deities. You also have to live with the constant uncertainty that you might not be a daemon prince at all: your whole life might be an illusion Tzeentch is giving you in the seconds before you die, because in reality you're just a pissant cultist of no account. Nurgle will mess your world up, true, but he alters your perceptions to actually enjoy it. So in that regard, a Nurgle Daemon Prince seems like one of the best (?) outcomes you could hope for.

-Eldar
So, seeing as the nature of Eldar souls, it seems that you can't really get a happy ending as the Eldar. The Corsairs need to keep fighting and surviving since they can't die, the Craftworld Eldar have their souls at constant risk as soon as their infinity circuit is corrupted. I'm actually not too aware of Harlequin, Exodite and Ynnari fluff. To my knowledge, Exodite's have their soul kind of absorbed into the planet like the Harmony ending of Civ Beyond Earth, but I'm not sure if their souls are still at risk after that. Could a Slaaneshi daemon still get its claws into their soul if it's been absorbed by the planet? Harlequin I also don't know much what happens to their soul, so that knowledge would be appreciated. There doesn't seem to be much fluff on the Ynnari. I know their soul is absorbed by Ynnead, but there's still room for a dark revelation about how exactly that works, so I'm not sure.


You might could get a happy ending if your content with your soul being subsumed into part of a larger whole, with all of your individuality wiped out, since that seems to be the 'happy' endings for most of the Eldar.

-Dark Eldar
The Dark Eldar society seems to be a combination of gangs, the most treacherous of political scenes and a hyena pack. Given that the most powerful of them, Vect, is still at constant risk of betrayal, I feel the best these guys are getting is a life of hedonism mixed with paranoia that's constantly at risk of being taken away.


A haemonculus who was content with a subordinate position (a Randall Flagg type, content to be the advisor and not the one wearing the crown) could actually be comfortable indefinitely in DE society. That's probably another one of the few 'happy' endings.

-Orks
The Orks are similar enough to the Dark Eldar in that, given that their happy ending is war, the best you're getting here is becoming powerful and continuing fighting, although sincethat's at constant risk of being taken away I don't know if it counts as an "Ending". I know there was a Warboss who really achieved a happy ending by attacking the Eye of Terror and being "punished" by being ressurrected everyday with his WAAAGH! to die fighting Khornate daemons, so I guess that works.


From an orky point of view, most orks have happy endings. Their lives are nasty, brutish, and short as a general rule, but that suits them just fine.

-T'au
For the life of me, I can't remember whether T'au can retire. I think the lore for Aun'El involve him being about to retire and I've heard that Shas'O generals are allowed to, but I'm not sure. If you're wounded to a point where you can't be brought back to fighting force or if you become just to old, what happens in the T'au Empire? Are you just euthanized, allowed retire, or what?


Tau can retire, I believe (or at least retire from active war to a training or advisory position). Unfortunately, Tau who remain a part of Tau society as a whole are probably only 'happy' in the same way that someone in a mental institution is happy with being so drugged up that they can't think straight enough to have any semblance of a personality anymore.

-Imperial Guard
I'm fairly sure that the Imperial Guard can retire, and can end up retiring to a world they took in order to keep order and be garrisoned there in case of counter-attack, so I'd imagine taking a paradise world and being allowed retire there is the ideal life for these guys, although I might be wrong.


Guardsmen can retire, depending on where they come from. It's damn sure not common. Being discharged for a sufficiently grievous wound is also a possibility. Depending on the prestige they enjoy, they might even be able to find some manner of employment and an enjoyable life.

-Space Marines
I don't think Space Marines can retire, so I'm fairly sure their life is just unending service. All of their endings pretty much must be falling in battle, or perhaps being interred in a Dreadnought, which seems fairly ad as its a life of miserable slumber permeated by fighting.


Yeah, Astartes keep going until they die. And the few dreadnought POV stories seem to make it pretty clear that being a dread is horrible.

-Tyranids
Not really much here. Retirement for these guys is enjoyed passing through the stomach of the hiveship.


Really good ones might get resurrected again, right? It's kind of mindless, but there you go. I assume it works for them.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I think Hive Tyrants and such have some personality and they keep getting brought back but random grunts have all the personality of a foot.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator




New York, USA

I'd have to agree that followers of Nurgle get the happiest endings. Considering the plague father is said to truly care and celebrate his diseased followers' lives. I imagine despite the smell most demon princes of Nurgle are quite happy with their fate at the end of the day.
   
Made in ie
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
None. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only senseless suffering while the dark gods move their pawns and roll the dice of their eternal games, their cruel laughter echoing across the galaxy.
And after having lived an utterly futile life you will die and have your soul devoured by monstrous warp entities.
That is 40k. There is no hope among the stars, only grimdark. The god of hope is an evil, scheming lovecraftian entity that wants to eat your soul.

As a wise Imperial sage once said: "Happiness is a delusion of the weak" and "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"


To be honest, I've always found the "Super Grimdark Grimdarkiest of Grimdarks" idea to be boring and not exactly accurate. There quite clearly is hope and happiness in 40k. People live normal lives without ever seeing another species or a daemon before peacefully dying on their agri-world all the time, soldiers win against impossible odds and are allowed to retire and raise children, T'au live out peaceful lives without ever facing war and die proudly having played their part for the Greater Good, and when they die these races die they lose all sentience so who gives a frak what happens their soul, they lived a good life and it ended there. While the overall world is certainly Grimdark and it's one of the most appealing aspects of the universe, to say that all there must be is Grimdark just kind of leaves a blank, monotone world where the darkness if anything is quenched by lack of something to contrast it against.

Yes they do, but there is a reason why we never hear those stories. That is not what 40k is about. 40k is not about the story of how farmer Sillius Soddus on the peaceful, isolated agri-world Quaintius III had a record harvest of sugar beets and won the love of his childhood sweetheart at the local village fair. 40k is the story about how Eldar raiders then invaded Quaintius III and carried off the entire population to the Dark City, one of many such raids they conducted on worlds in the sector before finally being stopped by a Chapter of heroic SPACE MARINES (and countless unmentioned PDF troopers that died horrible deaths and were essential to the success of the campaign but forgotten the moment they died).
The grimdarkness in 40k works because it is juxtaposed with the decency and normalcy of our comfortable 21st-century Western world. It does not need in-universe 'noblebright' stories for contrast. That said, a story can have a happy end while still being grimdark, and many if not most 40k stories actually do have a more or less happy end. The universe as a whole however, should remain tragically futile so that ultimately all those 'happy end stories' will have been meaningless in the greater whole of things. Darkness works best when it is brightened by a glimmer of hope that then gets extinguished again. So while there is room for a bit of happiness in individual stories, it only works as long as it eventually gets extinguished again. The greater story should remain one of despair.

Also, on a fluff note: It is heavily suggested people in 40k retain a degree of sentience after death.


I think you do need to have breaks against the futility. You do hear heartwarming stories in 40k. Not as boring as farmers farming and being OK with that, but you still do get them. If you know that the hope will always be crushed, it no longer exists as hope. Any cases of happy endings really aren't futile. Sure, they don't have a huge effect on the greater universe, or knowing 40k, don't matter in the slightest, but they aren't futile, because it's not undone for those characters. They get the happy endings and die well, and that's it. Hardly anything futile about that. The fact that there needs to be hope is again something I was pointing out, as despite what you said, there is hope among the stars, and there definitely needs to be. Without that spark, it just becomes something bland and inane.

Not that I'm questioning your fluff knowledge, but where is it said people in 40k retain a degree of sentience after death? I know the Eldar do, but I remember reading that human souls (normal ones, at least) aren't powerful enough to hold onto consciousness after death. I'd imagine even far less so for something like the T'au.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jimsolo wrote:
 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

-Chaos
It seems that if you're in the forces of Chaos, there actually is a clear way to "win", by ascending to Daemon Princedom. Becoming immortal with your own world to do as you please seems like a pretty ideal way to end up. Seeing as upon achieving this most characters (I'm looking at you, Primarchs) tend to stop caring about the mortal world, it seems like this is the happy ending most of the Chaos followers are going for.


Daemon Princes aren't happy, by and large. Khorne and Slaanesh daemons engage in their vices nonstop, true, but their deity curses them to never feel satiated. They're drug addicts who spend eternity chasing the dragon. Tzeentch is okay, but he's even more capricious than the other deities. You also have to live with the constant uncertainty that you might not be a daemon prince at all: your whole life might be an illusion Tzeentch is giving you in the seconds before you die, because in reality you're just a pissant cultist of no account. Nurgle will mess your world up, true, but he alters your perceptions to actually enjoy it. So in that regard, a Nurgle Daemon Prince seems like one of the best (?) outcomes you could hope for.


God, I really love the idea of Tzeentchian Daemon Princes living in permanent paranoia that they're not actually daemon princes. That seems like a really cool yet amusing idea that'd be interesting to see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 10:23:32


 
   
Made in gr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Yea, Nurgle and his followers give off a vibe as Santa and his Elves feel to me.


Merrily dispensing gifts to everybody on the 'good list', believers or not! And lets face it, very few people are bad enough to make it on to the 'Naughty List'...

DAMN!

Now I need to start a Christmas theme DoC list.

Papa Nurgle Claws GUCO,

Elf workshop nurglings.

'Mall Santa' plague bearers.

'Pained Ear' Rein deer with ear infection beasts of nurgle!
   
Made in au
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Australia

Most of the Imperium are made up of peaceful civilised worlds. Regular people who have regular lives who worship the Emperor.

That's a pretty happy ending.

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Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






 Novelist47 wrote:
Most of the Imperium are made up of peaceful civilised worlds. Regular people who have regular lives who worship the Emperor.

That's a pretty happy ending.


The thing to remember is that the standard for 'regular life' within the Imperium would probably fall somewhere between North Korea, the worst of Soviet Russia and a concentration camp.

It's a civilisation that has been in a state of total war for a shade over 10,000 years. Imagine the stories of the world war home-fronts, but perpetuated for 10 millennia.

It's a happy ending compared to what the Dark Eldar will do of course, but that's the point.

If people want a good news story from all the darkness it's one of survival. Life s pretty awful. Enemies more horrific than you can imagine hammer at every door. The only thing holding them back is a fascist military religious-fanatic dictatorship, and even then not very well.

Yet, despite all of this. Despite countless apocalypses. Despite the living conditions. Despite widespread ignorance. Despite enemies that outclass us in every way. Despite all of this, humanity endures through sheer grit and determination.

It's a message that works because of the level of unrelenting darkness.

Usually in fantasy universes humanity's racial trait is something like 'adaptability' or 'inventiveness' or something similar. It's quite rare that you come across a universe where our racial trait is that we're hard as nails.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




In fairness some people have nice enough lives. They're born, they live as farmers in a decent environment, they die. Although they are probably a minority.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemon_World_(Novel)

A good Example of a Grim Dark happy ending, its a good book people give it a try.
   
 
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