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Looking at the previews, Mortarion looks like he's can bring a lot of pain against an AM army. My first instinct was to treat him like I do Magnus and ignore him as best I can while killing the rest of the army and going for objectives. But 18 attacks that re roll wounds and the reduce toughness and mortal wounds auras is going to make even a Conscript screen melt without taking 200 of them (personal note, I run about 70-80 currently). Given the likelihood of a Conscript nerf, this doesn't seem like a great option.

It looks like 52 overcharged plasma shots at BS3 stands a good chance of one shotting him. This would come out to about 600 points in Scions, which isn't bad at all to kill a 470 point model, but it's unlikely plasma will stay at its current price/availability and getting all 30 of the plasma wielding scions between 9" and 12" might be harder to pull off in practice than in theory. This also uses most of the mobile elements present in a Guard list, but I guess the survivors could use MMM to take objectives. Further, that's 4 HQ's, 4 Troops, and 4 Elites all dedicated to that single task. Guard usually aren't hurting for slots but it's still something that could come up.

Another option I was considering was Primaris Psykers for smite spamming. But again, that's something likely to get hit with the nerf bat so not a great solution.

I suppose this may be a good opportunity to ally in some Grey Knights? What GK units would be the most cost effective to include in an Imperium army to bring as Mortarion insurance?

Is there anything else in the vast Imperium arsenal that can bring down the Big M without compromising a TAC list?

Please note, that a screen of warp timed poxwalkers or deepstriking death shroud terminators will more or less invalidate a psychic assault, even from grey knights

you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Manticores average 2 damage per round of shooting each, so those are right out. 10 Lascannons can expect to do 4-5 damage. 15 mortars barely gets 1.8 damage through. We're talking a literal entire army's firepower to remove 470 points over 2-3 turns while the pther 1500 points gets to go unmolestef. And yes, I realize that is the gripe people have with Conscripts, but it's been pretty strongly implied by FLG and others that Conscripts are on GW's hit list.

Keep in mind that aura will make bolters and above wound Conscripts on 2's from the rest of the DG army, which will greatly improve the rest of the DG army's efficiency at removing them. I'm also looking for a solution that isn't 'just run 200 conscripts' because I doubt that will even be legal/viable by the time the AM codex drops in November.

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Can't he fly? I mean unless you're physically preventing him from landing with a massive carpet of conscripts, couldn't he just fly over your dudes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Manticores average 2 damage per round of shooting each, so those are right out. 10 Lascannons can expect to do 4-5 damage. 15 mortars barely gets 1.8 damage through. We're talking a literal entire army's firepower to remove 470 points over 2-3 turns while the pther 1500 points gets to go unmolestef. And yes, I realize that is the gripe people have with Conscripts, but it's been pretty strongly implied by FLG and others that Conscripts are on GW's hit list.

Keep in mind that aura will make bolters and above wound Conscripts on 2's from the rest of the DG army, which will greatly improve the rest of the DG army's efficiency at removing them. I'm also looking for a solution that isn't 'just run 200 conscripts' because I doubt that will even be legal/viable by the time the AM codex drops in November.

I'm more worried about GW nerfing everything BUT conscripts, so that we're forced to play a conscript horde just to compete.

But then I played through 8th edition wfb, so i'm jaded.

Is the Shadowsword the answer?

Tons and tons of Heavy Weapons Squads. I would take Missile Launchers in this case. The slight negative to AP is a moot point with his Invul save, same with Strength 8 over 9, really doesn't matter. After you spend 2-3 turns unloading missile shots into him, swap to frag missiles and go Zombie hunting.

I keep Yarrick near my Missile Squads, the rerolls of 1 to hit mixed with the order that gives you rerolls of 1 to wound make my Missile Teams some real crack shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't use Conscripts, and have Missile Launchers in my Infantry Squads as well. 24 missile shots a turn kills a lot of stuff at 2,000 points, since I still have plenty of other shooting as well.

I feel like I shouldn't point out that 'death to the false emperor' rule means he gets 3 more attacks for every 6 he rolls in that initial 18.....making this far far more painful than you think.


Cheers
- Death Guard player

 argonak wrote:

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Can't he fly? I mean unless you're physically preventing him from landing with a massive carpet of conscripts, couldn't he just fly over your dudes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Manticores average 2 damage per round of shooting each, so those are right out. 10 Lascannons can expect to do 4-5 damage. 15 mortars barely gets 1.8 damage through. We're talking a literal entire army's firepower to remove 470 points over 2-3 turns while the pther 1500 points gets to go unmolestef. And yes, I realize that is the gripe people have with Conscripts, but it's been pretty strongly implied by FLG and others that Conscripts are on GW's hit list.

Keep in mind that aura will make bolters and above wound Conscripts on 2's from the rest of the DG army, which will greatly improve the rest of the DG army's efficiency at removing them. I'm also looking for a solution that isn't 'just run 200 conscripts' because I doubt that will even be legal/viable by the time the AM codex drops in November.

I'm more worried about GW nerfing everything BUT conscripts, so that we're forced to play a conscript horde just to compete.

But then I played through 8th edition wfb, so i'm jaded.

He'll kill a conscript squad he hits. But it'll take him 2 turns to get there. The third is his turn to get past them.

Ultimately, I don't think 10 inches gets him to a place before he takes a faceful of efficient firepower.

I could very well be wrong, but he's a quarter of your army, so he HAS to perform.

He needs to get close. So use a psyker with Null-Zone? I know I'd take one if I was facing Death Guard.

How badly does he degrade?

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Is the Shadowsword the answer?

Shadowsword could potentially be the answer.

Unless Morty has the first turn and can be buffed, or buff himself with Miasma for that wonder -1 To Hit modifier. Your Shadowsword is then hitting on 5's, with D6 shots. Any hits that get through will wound Mortarion on 2's, so that's a bonus. But 50% of wounds will be denied by his 4+ Invulnerable, and whatever Damage is dealt to him, as a 1/3rd chance of being ignored by Disgustingly Resilient.

Source: I played against a Guard player who took a Shadowsword vs Mortarion in a 2000 point game. The Shadowsword didn't put any damage on Morty. He poured all the shooting he could at Mortarion, which consisted mainly of tanks and artillery, and by the time Mortarion was in his army and wrecking face, he'd only taken three wounds. Miasma of Pestilence is basically necessary however, for Mortarion to live vs Gun lines like that.

 argonak wrote:

stratigo wrote:
you shoot him.

With an AM army with screens you'll probably have at least 2 and likely 3 turns before he's actually killing more than conscripts.

Can't he fly? I mean unless you're physically preventing him from landing with a massive carpet of conscripts, couldn't he just fly over your dudes?

Fly you say?

Swat him down with a ton of hydras?

If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Are you trying to suggest Mortarion is somehow less difficult for a guard gunline to deal with than Celestine? Lasguns/mortars can drop her pretty easily because of her toughness 3 and her needing to be in rapid fire range of everything. Against Mortarion, those would be wounding on 5/6's instead of 3/4's and because he's shrugging off a further third of the wounds that make it past that.

RogueApiary wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Are you trying to suggest Mortarion is somehow less difficult for a guard gunline to deal with than Celestine? Lasguns/mortars can drop her pretty easily because of her toughness 3 and her needing to be in rapid fire range of everything. Against Mortarion, those would be wounding on 5/6's instead of 3/4's and because he's shrugging off a further third of the wounds that make it past that.

Isnt celestine sub 10 wounds?

 Desubot wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Are you trying to suggest Mortarion is somehow less difficult for a guard gunline to deal with than Celestine? Lasguns/mortars can drop her pretty easily because of her toughness 3 and her needing to be in rapid fire range of everything. Against Mortarion, those would be wounding on 5/6's instead of 3/4's and because he's shrugging off a further third of the wounds that make it past that.

Isnt celestine sub 10 wounds?

Every time I've fought one, the character restriction hasn't really been an issue as she hits my line or tries to hop over my conscript line to hunt a character.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Are you trying to suggest Mortarion is somehow less difficult for a guard gunline to deal with than Celestine? Lasguns/mortars can drop her pretty easily because of her toughness 3 and her needing to be in rapid fire range of everything. Against Mortarion, those would be wounding on 5/6's instead of 3/4's and because he's shrugging off a further third of the wounds that make it past that.

Isnt celestine sub 10 wounds?

Every time I've fought one, the character restriction hasn't really been an issue as she hits my line or tries to hop over my conscript line to hunt a character.

Sounds odd though i guess it makes sense with her come back to life ability so its a bit moot for her.

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Celestine is an assassin. There's literally nothing you can do to stop her from getting to her target, and she's good enough to kill anything anyone with half a brain would send after her. And then you shoot her to death because there's no reason not to and she does it a second time. But her targets are not meaner beatsticks, and they aren't heavy armor. Or even big mobs. She wants to kill small elite Heavy support, or a squishy support character

Mortarian is an army blender. There is not a unit in this game outside MAYBE magnus that he cannot wreck. He will, on average, one shot guilliman on a charge. You have to kill him fast because if you try and ignore him, starting on his turn two he is deleting any unit in your army a turn while slowly attritioning all the other ones near him.

Orktavius wrote:
I feel like I shouldn't point out that 'death to the false emperor' rule means he gets 3 more attacks for every 6 he rolls in that initial 18.....making this far far more painful than you think.


Cheers
- Death Guard player

Oof, I hadn't thought about that. Good thing I play orks!

stratigo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Celestine is an assassin. There's literally nothing you can do to stop her from getting to her target, and she's good enough to kill anything anyone with half a brain would send after her. And then you shoot her to death because there's no reason not to and she does it a second time. But her targets are not meaner beatsticks, and they aren't heavy armor. Or even big mobs. She wants to kill small elite Heavy support, or a squishy support character

Mortarian is an army blender. There is not a unit in this game outside MAYBE magnus that he cannot wreck. He will, on average, one shot guilliman on a charge. You have to kill him fast because if you try and ignore him, starting on his turn two he is deleting any unit in your army a turn while slowly attritioning all the other ones near him.

This talk of Mortarion is starting to give me PTSD flashbacks of TWC deathstars in 7th. I sure hope Guard can keep up this time.

stratigo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you can't deal with mortarion what's your battle plan vs celestine?

Mortarian is an army blender. There is not a unit in this game outside MAYBE magnus that he cannot wreck. He will, on average, one shot guilliman on a charge. You have to kill him fast because if you try and ignore him, starting on his turn two he is deleting any unit in your army a turn while slowly attritioning all the other ones near him.

I wouldn't let Mortarion get anywhere near Magnus. Use Warptime to dance around Mortarion while blasting him with Magnus' souped-up Smite.

To kill mortarian you shot him a lot.
6 cyclops demo vehicles (240pts) 7in in front of
2x 50 conscripts (150pts) supported by
Company commander (40pts) plus commissar (41pts) and
2x searchlights (40pts) with
6x twin lascannon tarantulas (300pts) and
3x basilisks carriages (240pts)and
2x medusa carriage batteries (192pts) and
Celestine plus 2 geminae (250pts)
Culexus assasin (85pts)

That's your screen of death and your deepstrike objective grabbing killers are
2x Elysian sniper units (42pts) hiding in ruins
3x Elysian infantry squads (171pts) w plasma (obj secured)
2x Elysian company commander (80pts) and
2x Elysian company command squad w 4x plasma (112pts)

That's under 2k and should kill mortarion. Cyclops vehicles (40pts) move 10in and automatically hit units within 6in for 2d6 str9 ap-2 d3 damage and even if he destroys them he has a 50% chance of exploding them for mortal wounds. So you want to keep him away so mortarian doesn't get hit by a lot of wounds. If he goes right for them in the middle he can get hit by up to 5 of them. That's 10d6 str9 auto hitting ap-2 d3 and well over half his wounds gone with anything within 6in of him dying as well. If everything is spaced properly no one can deep strike in you deploy zone and has to fight through 3 screens of death. Cyclops, conscripts, tarantulas (which can shoot into combat) just to get near your artillery and snipers.

gungo wrote:
To kill mortarian you shot him a lot.
6 cyclops demo vehicles (240pts) 7in in front of
2x 50 conscripts (150pts) supported by
Company commander (40pts) plus commissar (41pts) and
2x primaris psykers (56pts) smite spamming and
2x searchlights (40pts) with
6x twin lascannon tarantulas and
3x basilisks carriages (240pts)and
2x medusa carriage batteries (192pts) and

That's your screen of death and your deepstrike objective grabbing killers are
6x Elysian snipers hiding in ruins
5x Elysian infantry squads w 2x plasma (does 3dam)
1x Elysian company commander and
1x Elysian company command squad w 4x plasma

That's under 2k and should kill mortarion. Cyclops vehicles (40pts) move 10in and automatically hit units within 6in for 2d6 str9 ap-2 d3 damage and even if he destroys them he has a 50% chance of exploding them for mortal wounds. So you want to keep him away so mortarian doesn't get hit by a lot of wounds. If he goes right for them in the middle he can get hit by up to 5 of them. That's 10d6 str9 auto hitting ap-2 d3 and well over half his wounds gone with anything within 6in of him dying as well. If everything is spaced properly no one can deep strike in you deploy zone and has to fight through 3 screens of death. Cyclops, conscripts, tarantulas (which can shoot into combat) just to get near your artillery and snipers.

I don't think there is an opponent or TO around that will let you get away with the 3 damage plasma guns. I really like the cyclops idea though, guess I'll need to get a few more of those.

Remember to space them 6 in apart right on your deployment zone line and place your next screen 7in behind them. Because when they explode they hit everything within 6in. Then your line of conscripts with support characters behind them. And another line tarrantulas spaced out again to prevent deepstrike in your deployment. Artillery and defense searchlights in the back.
Elysian for cheaper drop plasma and objective secured deepstrike infantry platoons.

Sprinkle with whatever culexus, Celestine or smite spam primaris or whatever else you want.

Orktavius wrote:
I feel like I shouldn't point out that 'death to the false emperor' rule means he gets 3 more attacks for every 6 he rolls in that initial 18.....making this far far more painful than you think.


Cheers
- Death Guard player

Glad you did, because I had overlooked that. Mortarion is absolutely insane. Against Imperial armies, he averages like 28 dead GEQ per fight phase. That's on top of Plague Wind being able to kill 1/6th of a blob in the psychic phase, and Phosphex Bombs killing a handful more in the shooting phase. How many other units in the game could kill an entire 50-man blob in a single PLAYER turn?

Bigger problem is going to be armies without the mass of bodies that IG bring to the table. He will almost single handily wipe out most small model count armies.

I want to play against him to really judge in game rather than through math hammer but on the face of it he seems like he might be a bit much, even at his huge point cost because given how difficult he is to put wounds on after the first couple of turns you may not have enough remaining firepower to ever kill him. This could make games including him boil down to kill him in the first two turns or just count the game as a loss, which would be unfortunate. Also at 1000 points I don't know how any army could realistically deal with him period.

I will be facing him in the near future and I'm thinking the best option may just be to spread out as much as possible and try and kill the rest of the DG army before it's too late and count on Mortarion only being in 1 place at a time. How far can he move?

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I will be facing him in the near future and I'm thinking the best option may just be to spread out as much as possible and try and kill the rest of the DG army before it's too late and count on Mortarion only being in 1 place at a time. How far can he move?

He starts out moving 12" a turn, slowing down to 8" a turn at his lowest wound level. Also, bear in mind that his pistol Lantern has an 18" range.

Lantern also is a line gun, you can target a tank in the back, and it hits everything between mortarion and the tank. It's very good for taking a chunk out of a few units at a time.