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As an Eldar player, or should I start saying Ynnari? I've been pretty disheartened with the widespread grounding of so many favorites units due to poor rules and points cost increases: I'm looking at you Wraithknights, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, Wind Riders etc. Don't get me wrong, I've also been enjoying my dark reapers, fire dragons, wraithguard, and shining spears. But my lists have all taken on a similar look and I'm wondering if a few units should get a little spotlight.

Two in particular, the Night Spinner and the FW Skathach Wraithknight.

The Night Spinner, in short gives out 2D6 shots at 48" range, no LoS needed, str 7, 2 damage each, and 6's as always bypass armor pretty much, plus a shuriken cannon for 165 pts in change, seems pretty strong, has anyone been having good success with these?

The Skathach Wraithknight, like it's codex sister, is still over costed in my opinion, coming in at around 650 points, what do I think it should cost? At a maximum 550ish the same as an Imperial/Renegade Knight. Nevertheless the rule which I think may really break them out is deep strike, combined with both main weapon systems being vastly superior to the normal heavy wraithcannon, one being essentially 2D6 Multi Melta shots, the other being what basically amounts to a lascannon that can be fired in a D3 shot, or flamer version of itself. Does the fact that you can always plant that in your opponents back line make the points justifiable? Can it be such a good distraction unit that it becomes worth it?

Just wondering the Eldar communities thoughts on these two units, I haven't seen too many lists with them.

peteralmo wrote:
As an Eldar player, or should I start saying Ynnari? I've been pretty disheartened with the widespread grounding of so many favorites units due to poor rules and points cost increases: I'm looking at you Wraithknights, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, Wind Riders etc. Don't get me wrong, I've also been enjoying my dark reapers, fire dragons, wraithguard, and shining spears. But my lists have all taken on a similar look and I'm wondering if a few units should get a little spotlight.

Two in particular, the Night Spinner and the FW Skathach Wraithknight.

The Night Spinner, in short gives out 2D6 shots at 48" range, no LoS needed, str 7, 2 damage each, and 6's as always bypass armor pretty much, plus a shuriken cannon for 165 pts in change, seems pretty strong, has anyone been having good success with these?

The Skathach Wraithknight, like it's codex sister, is still over costed in my opinion, coming in at around 650 points, what do I think it should cost? At a maximum 550ish the same as an Imperial/Renegade Knight. Nevertheless the rule which I think may really break them out is deep strike, combined with both main weapon systems being vastly superior to the normal heavy wraithcannon, one being essentially 2D6 Multi Melta shots, the other being what basically amounts to a lascannon that can be fired in a D3 shot, or flamer version of itself. Does the fact that you can always plant that in your opponents back line make the points justifiable? Can it be such a good distraction unit that it becomes worth it?

Just wondering the Eldar communities thoughts on these two units, I haven't seen too many lists with them.

Patience man. Don't make any decision - last time I heard one 3 of next codex releases will be Craftworlds and then in December Chapters Approved.

It may be worst time to make investment in what you want to buy/play atm. As you may regret it faster, than you think, you would.
Unless you collect one of armies with codex out already - see SM,CSM,Grey Knights, Death Guard - just wait.

Or buy something you want to build and/or paint. Don't buy anything CWE for gaming purposes right now.

Earth127 wrote:
Or buy something you want to build and/or paint. Don't buy anything CWE for gaming purposes right now.

Also excellent advice.
But I prefer to buy stuff that I want to build and paint AND that is not worthless on board . And such combinations do exist thankfully.
After all not much time left to CW codex , like 1 , 2 months max ?

I hear what you guys are saying and I have been feverishly working on my salamanders. But was looking for some opinion on the two above mentioned units. Yes, the codex will change some things, but if the the imperium index is any indication, they're won't be major changes.

I played a few games with the nightspinner. I rated it. It's very dependant on its variable shots tho but the damage potential is there. The 2 damage makes it good at dealing with a wide range of targets too. Plus it's Range and indirect fire can keep it out of harms way for late game.
The wraithknight is expensive but definitely has potential.

My nightspinner has done well the few times I’ve had it out. It’s not broken, but provides a reasonable amount of decent fire at a good price.

Yeah that's my thought as well, but I think if you run them you may want to run like 2-3, hidden in the back, in cover, make it a big enough threat that the opponent has to react to it.

On the issue of the wraithknight, I'm just going to have to test it out, but I think a deep striking wraithknight is the perfect foil in a list for running units unprotected, who would normally need protection, basically, even though it's a big points sink, it might actually free up points in other places. For example I'd probably never field dark reapers in this edition without a wave serpent to protect on turn 1. But with a deep striking wraithknight I think you could actually get away with it. They have to focus entirely on that thing till it's dead or it will run roughshod over their entire line, giving you the opportunity to place out some softer targets without fear.

Banshees... they been sittin' on my shelf for years now. I genuinely haven't used them in a match since 2007.

Fire Dragons, still good but can't as reliably 1-shot a vehicle anymore. This isn't their fault, vehicles got a lot stronger so it makes some sense.

Rangers, they were always over-priced and weak. Now that cover is harder to get, and they -need- cover, they stay on the shelf, too.

Falcom and Fire Prism... meh... they noth got worse, the Fire Prism much more so but, I still take 'em cuz' they look good on the field. Also, while they got a lot worse, they are still passable.

Night Spinners are great, just to costly, when the codex comes out in Nov they will be worth it to take.

Also FW is getting an update soon too (GW said at Nova its being worked on) but there is no release on that yet , but i'm guessing Late Nov b.c FW units were a problem at Nova and they want to address the issue.

The Skathach Wraithknight is a really cool and fun WK, if you want a WK and you like it, go for it, yeah it might not be the best pick, but you'll have fun with it.

 RancidHate wrote:
Banshees... they been sittin' on my shelf for years now. I genuinely haven't used them in a match since 2007.

Fire Dragons, still good but can't as reliably 1-shot a vehicle anymore. This isn't their fault, vehicles got a lot stronger so it makes some sense.

Rangers, they were always over-priced and weak. Now that cover is harder to get, and they -need- cover, they stay on the shelf, too.

Falcom and Fire Prism... meh... they noth got worse, the Fire Prism much more so but, I still take 'em cuz' they look good on the field. Also, while they got a lot worse, they are still passable.

I agree with everything here, except the fire dragons, I have been using them a lot this edition and they have been fantastic for me.

peteralmo wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
Banshees... they been sittin' on my shelf for years now. I genuinely haven't used them in a match since 2007.

Fire Dragons, still good but can't as reliably 1-shot a vehicle anymore. This isn't their fault, vehicles got a lot stronger so it makes some sense.

Rangers, they were always over-priced and weak. Now that cover is harder to get, and they -need- cover, they stay on the shelf, too.

Falcom and Fire Prism... meh... they noth got worse, the Fire Prism much more so but, I still take 'em cuz' they look good on the field. Also, while they got a lot worse, they are still passable.

I agree with everything here, except the fire dragons, I have been using them a lot this edition and they have been fantastic for me.

I agree with you, fire dragons (I think my math is correct doing it fast in my head) can on average does 11 wounds within range. Thats pretty good imo.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Night Spinners are great, just to costly, when the codex comes out in Nov they will be worth it to take.

You got a source for that or just guessing?

Oh the Fire Dragons are still good, very good actually but, before they were no-brainer, auto-take good.

See they used'to'could' destroy a Land Raider with 1 shot from 1 random model left in the squad that passed a crazy morale check. It was a Exarch model that I subbed as a 6th regular FD. ...needless to say I awarded him with the best paint job i could muster...

 RancidHate wrote:
Banshees... they been sittin' on my shelf for years now. I genuinely haven't used them in a match since 2007.

Fire Dragons, still good but can't as reliably 1-shot a vehicle anymore. This isn't their fault, vehicles got a lot stronger so it makes some sense.

Rangers, they were always over-priced and weak. Now that cover is harder to get, and they -need- cover, they stay on the shelf, too.

Falcom and Fire Prism... meh... they noth got worse, the Fire Prism much more so but, I still take 'em cuz' they look good on the field. Also, while they got a lot worse, they are still passable.

The Fire prism is average and loses out to the night spinner (funnily enough). But the falcon is just strictly worse than the wave serpent.

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Night Spinners are great, just to costly, when the codex comes out in Nov they will be worth it to take.

You got a source for that or just guessing?

Guessing.

Nightspinners were strong last edition, a squad of 3 could decimate anything short of a superheavy. Barrage OP

They look ok now but that high strength isn't so attractive anymore with the new wound table. And then there's the age old question of why 'not just take another wave serpent'.

Spartacus wrote:
Nightspinners were strong last edition, a squad of 3 could decimate anything short of a superheavy. Barrage OP

They look ok now but that high strength isn't so attractive anymore with the new wound table. And then there's the age old question of why 'not just take another wave serpent'.

Unlike the prism/falcon they actually do bring something that the WS can’t do. It’s not much, but the ability to target things you can’t see can occasionally be useful.

Wyldcarde wrote:
The Fire prism is average and loses out to the night spinner (funnily enough). But the falcon is just strictly worse than the wave serpent.

I hate to do this to you, but try comparing a fire prism to a wave serpent with twin brightlances. Slap some spirit stones on the serpent to make them equal in cost. You now have a tank that is far more durable, can transport infantry and can even deal mortal wounds for the same cost, while equalling or even exceeding the output of what as far as I can tell is the prism cannon's most desirable firing profile (focused).

The thing is that I don't think the serpent is too shooty (though I'd happily pay ~20pts more for them). If anything, I'd say our other tanks are not shooty enough. I'm hoping the codex will give me a reason to field my falcons again.

I really hope Wraithlords and the Falcon get a much-needed buff. The Falcon needs to be tougher than the WS and needs a bit more punch in its main weapon.

I think the eldar are suffering from a number of over costed under performing units from the index atm, the falcon and the fire prism are some big ones. Like I said before I like the night spinner a lot. And yeah wraithlords have been bad for a while now. I think dreadnought types in general were improved, of course, but they still need help. They're not particularly shooty, save FW of course, and they only ever have 4 attacks which isn't a ton, they need a delivery system, which wraithlords do not have, or they need relentless so that it actually makes sense to give them good heavy weapons, move them up the board to make use of those 4 attacks, while also being able to shoot at BS. I'm just not high on dreadnought varients at all right now, save SM coming out of a stormraven.

peteralmo wrote:
I think the eldar are suffering from a number of over costed under performing units from the index atm, the falcon and the fire prism are some big ones. Like I said before I like the night spinner a lot. And yeah wraithlords have been bad for a while now. I think dreadnought types in general were improved, of course, but they still need help. They're not particularly shooty, save FW of course, and they only ever have 4 attacks which isn't a ton, they need a delivery system, which wraithlords do not have, or they need relentless so that it actually makes sense to give them good heavy weapons, move them up the board to make use of those 4 attacks, while also being able to shoot at BS. I'm just not high on dreadnought varients at all right now, save SM coming out of a stormraven.

Why would a wraithlord get these things when a dreadnought/helbrute does not? A wraithlord has access to 2 heavy weapons, plus 2 small weapons, a sword without having to give up something to take it. This is coming from someone who plays Iyanden and has 2 wraithlords, they are not that bad. What they could use is a strategem that gives them some form of benefit or allow them to utilize a specific craftworld trait.

Nightspinners are really the only CWE dedicated tank worth looking at IMO. You can bring a lot of pain from out of LoS if you deploy right. They're a little more versatile than a Wave Serpent with Bright Lances, but also less durable.

Nightspinners have a place in a TAC style list, but I doubt you'd see them over Dark Reapers or Serpents in a competitive list - Ynnari certainly favors Dark Reapers.

 bullyboy wrote:

peteralmo wrote:
I think the eldar are suffering from a number of over costed under performing units from the index atm, the falcon and the fire prism are some big ones. Like I said before I like the night spinner a lot. And yeah wraithlords have been bad for a while now. I think dreadnought types in general were improved, of course, but they still need help. They're not particularly shooty, save FW of course, and they only ever have 4 attacks which isn't a ton, they need a delivery system, which wraithlords do not have, or they need relentless so that it actually makes sense to give them good heavy weapons, move them up the board to make use of those 4 attacks, while also being able to shoot at BS. I'm just not high on dreadnought varients at all right now, save SM coming out of a stormraven.

Why would a wraithlord get these things when a dreadnought/helbrute does not? A wraithlord has access to 2 heavy weapons, plus 2 small weapons, a sword without having to give up something to take it. This is coming from someone who plays Iyanden and has 2 wraithlords, they are not that bad. What they could use is a strategem that gives them some form of benefit or allow them to utilize a specific craftworld trait.

So, dreadnoughts do get these things. There are dreadnought drop pods, and Stormravens can carry them. Dreadnoughts can pay 20 more points for BS2+ and 6+ FNP, which makes them a lot more able to move forward while firing. A dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or an assault cannon without having to give up its close combat attacks, and it gets 4 of them. More importantly, since not many people are actually taking mixed CC/shooty dreads, dreadnoughts can give up their fists. The Wraithlord is stuck paying for its close combat ability even if you don't want it, whereas a dreadnought can take a twin autocannon or a missle launcher instead of its fist and actually get cheaper. FW variants offer quad- heavy weapon dreads, 10-wound options, invulnerable saves, etc.

Shining Spears. It's been picked up by a few people but they are one of the hidden gems of 8th Edition. I've been using some by Proxying Windriders for a few gams for both CW and Ynnari and they have not disappointed (in fact they are borderline OP with the Ynnari).

Will probably be getting some soon.

The Night Spinner is another underrated unit that is sadly overshadowed by the Dark Reapers and War Walkers. To be fair though Reapers and War Walkers are ridiculously good units themselves./

Shining spears are really great now, and yes if they get to soulburst it's particularly nasty. However they're not ultra durable, the 4++ against range helps, but they also aren't aggressively costed. I think they're still worth the points, but I'd say they're definitely on the high range of what feels appropriate points wise.

They are one of the few units where shelling out for a Warlock or Farseer on Jetbike might actually be worth it.

 Chippen wrote:
Nightspinners are really the only CWE dedicated tank worth looking at IMO. You can bring a lot of pain from out of LoS if you deploy right. They're a little more versatile than a Wave Serpent with Bright Lances, but also less durable.

Nightspinners have a place in a TAC style list, but I doubt you'd see them over Dark Reapers or Serpents in a competitive list - Ynnari certainly favors Dark Reapers.

But the point of Eldar is also to have a viable ... Eldar army, and if the codex changes a few things (some points adjustments and stratagems) Night Spinners could be (and i think they might be) really good.

No LoS shooting on a vehicle that can move is really strong. Yes a WS is great too and can get guys to places while staying alive and doing some damage, but it wont do damage like a Night Spinner.

Dark Reapers also cant shoot out of LoS and can die easier.

DorkKnightRahal wrote:
They are one of the few units where shelling out for a Warlock or Farseer on Jetbike might actually be worth it.

Certainly these, as well as shadow spectres.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
The Fire prism is average and loses out to the night spinner (funnily enough). But the falcon is just strictly worse than the wave serpent.

I hate to do this to you, but try comparing a fire prism to a wave serpent with twin brightlances. Slap some spirit stones on the serpent to make them equal in cost. You now have a tank that is far more durable, can transport infantry and can even deal mortal wounds for the same cost, while equalling or even exceeding the output of what as far as I can tell is the prism cannon's most desirable firing profile (focused).

The thing is that I don't think the serpent is too shooty (though I'd happily pay ~20pts more for them). If anything, I'd say our other tanks are not shooty enough. I'm hoping the codex will give me a reason to field my falcons again.

I didn't say fire prisms are great. I said average. It is obvious that the wave serpent trumps all.
By the numbers the fire prism isn't too bad, and having the multiple firing modes for flexibility gives it some viability. But the night spinner is better against almost all targets. And then as stated a wave serpent built to combat the fire prism's best target is purely better.
I've not taken a fire prism in 8th and don't intend to for those reasons, but they at least have a bit more value taking then a falcon, which is completely outclassed by the serpent.