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Was flicking through the Imperium Index 2 and saw the Senior Officer rule for the company commander. Now, to issue orders the unit targeted needs the same <Regiment> as the guy giving the orders, so whats to stop me from declaring my Company Commander as "Militarum Tempetus" and give orders to Scions?

I only ask, because the only way to have the tempestor give out 2 orders a turn is to trade in his only ranged weapon for the rod that gives him that ability.

I'm guessing this is a RAW v RAI thing, but it's bloody unfair I have to take away any ranged capability, however small, from the Tempestor while the company commander can have the same ability AND pick ranged weapons.

Edit: Spelling >.<

What's to stop you? The rules for <regiment> keywords. It is very clearly stated that you cannot choose tempestus militarum.

Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It is a Regiment, but not one you can choose to replace the tag, second paragraph of the <Regiment> rules at the beginning of the Index section for Astra Militarum.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It is a Regiment, but not one you can choose to replace the tag, second paragraph of the <Regiment> rules at the beginning of the Index section for Astra Militarum.

Ah my bad, I didn't see that ><

Does seem a bit crap the tempestor prime gives up a ranged weapon for the same ability though, and he costs 10 points more in the first place

From the Designer's Commentary:

Q: If I can choose a keyword for a unit, such as <Regiment> for Astra Militarum, could I choose that keyword to be, for example ‘Blood Angels’ or ‘Death Guard’?
A: No.

In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes – neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum.

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <Regiment> and/or <Chapter> keywords now work on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?
A: No.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It is a Regiment, but not one you can choose to replace the tag, second paragraph of the <Regiment> rules at the beginning of the Index section for Astra Militarum.

Ah, I don't have the Imperium II index so I was unaware of any restrictions; I was just going off of general rules.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It is a Regiment, but not one you can choose to replace the tag, second paragraph of the <Regiment> rules at the beginning of the Index section for Astra Militarum.

Ah, I don't have the Imperium II index so I was unaware of any restrictions; I was just going off of general rules.

Even the generic rules prohibit you from abusing Keywords like <Chapter> to circumvent certain restrictions. You can't make a Centurion Devastator squad GREY KNIGHTS, for example.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment. (Designer's Commentary)

nekooni wrote:
Even the generic rules prohibit you from abusing Keywords like <Chapter> to circumvent certain restrictions. You can't make a Centurion Devastator squad GREY KNIGHTS, for example.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment. (Designer's Commentary)

That's why, in my original reply, I said:

Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It turns out that Militarium is a regiment but there are internal restrictions on which regiments you can use.

 mrhappyface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Even the generic rules prohibit you from abusing Keywords like <Chapter> to circumvent certain restrictions. You can't make a Centurion Devastator squad GREY KNIGHTS, for example.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment. (Designer's Commentary)

That's why, in my original reply, I said:

Is "Militarium Tempestus" a <regiment> or is it just a keyword? If it's a regiment then you are fine to go ahead, if it isn't a regiment then it won't work.

It turns out that Militarium is a regiment but there are internal restrictions on which regiments you can use.

Yes, but it is not just that there are internal restrictions, there are general restrictions, too - so even if the <Regiment> rules didn't explicitly prohibit it, you'd still read the Designer's Commentary and find out that no, whatever smart trickery you were planning is simply not meant to be.

nekooni wrote:
Yes, but it is not just that there are internal restrictions, there are general restrictions, too - so even if the <Regiment> rules didn't explicitly prohibit it, you'd still read the Designer's Commentary and find out that no, whatever smart trickery you were planning is simply not meant to be.

I think that you're missing the fact that Militarium Tempestus IS a regiment so the designers commentary does allow it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, but it is not just that there are internal restrictions, there are general restrictions, too - so even if the <Regiment> rules didn't explicitly prohibit it, you'd still read the Designer's Commentary and find out that no, whatever smart trickery you were planning is simply not meant to be.

I think that you're missing the fact that Militarium Tempestus IS a regiment so the designers commentary does allow it.

And Blood Angels are a chapter, but you can't freely assign it to anyone. The DC does not talk about regiments specifically, just as an example. You also cannot pick the same keyword for your regiment and your chapter and have it interact. They laid down a general rule that you simply cannot use the keywords to gain something that's not obviously intended. That's what I quoted, that's their core message when it comes to these faction keywords: "Do not abuse it."

nekooni wrote:
And Blood Angels are a chapter, but you can't freely assign it to anyone. The DC does not talk about regiments specifically, just as an example. You also cannot pick the same keyword for your regiment and your chapter and have it interact. They laid down a general rule that you simply cannot use the keywords to gain something that's not obviously intended. That's what I quoted, that's their core message when it comes to these faction keywords: "Do not abuse it."

Now you're just talking rubbish, you can apply the BA keyword to any unit that has <chapter> in their keyword slot just as, if it wasn't for the specific restriction, you could assign MT to any <regiment> unit.

Exactly what is being abused by assigning a named regiment to the <regiment> slot?

 mrhappyface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
And Blood Angels are a chapter, but you can't freely assign it to anyone. The DC does not talk about regiments specifically, just as an example. You also cannot pick the same keyword for your regiment and your chapter and have it interact. They laid down a general rule that you simply cannot use the keywords to gain something that's not obviously intended. That's what I quoted, that's their core message when it comes to these faction keywords: "Do not abuse it."

Now you're just talking rubbish, you can apply the BA keyword to any unit that has <chapter> in their keyword slot just as, if it wasn't for the specific restriction, you could assign MT to any <regiment> unit.

Exactly what is being abused by assigning a named regiment to the <regiment> slot?

You could simply circumvent the restrictions placed on e.g. Space Wolves, Blood Angels or Grey Knights as to which 'vanilla Marine' units they have access to.
You're only allowed to apply the Blood Angels key word to the units listed on p.89, not to all of them. But I just noticed there's also a specific line saying so, so you're right.

 mrhappyface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
And Blood Angels are a chapter, but you can't freely assign it to anyone. The DC does not talk about regiments specifically, just as an example. You also cannot pick the same keyword for your regiment and your chapter and have it interact. They laid down a general rule that you simply cannot use the keywords to gain something that's not obviously intended. That's what I quoted, that's their core message when it comes to these faction keywords: "Do not abuse it."

Now you're just talking rubbish, you can apply the BA keyword to any unit that has <chapter> in their keyword slot just as, if it wasn't for the specific restriction, you could assign MT to any <regiment> unit.

Exactly what is being abused by assigning a named regiment to the <regiment> slot?

No, you can't. The index gives you a list of units that are allowed to take the blood angels chapter. You cannot just assign it to anything with <chapter>.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
And Blood Angels are a chapter, but you can't freely assign it to anyone. The DC does not talk about regiments specifically, just as an example. You also cannot pick the same keyword for your regiment and your chapter and have it interact. They laid down a general rule that you simply cannot use the keywords to gain something that's not obviously intended. That's what I quoted, that's their core message when it comes to these faction keywords: "Do not abuse it."

Now you're just talking rubbish, you can apply the BA keyword to any unit that has <chapter> in their keyword slot just as, if it wasn't for the specific restriction, you could assign MT to any <regiment> unit.

Exactly what is being abused by assigning a named regiment to the <regiment> slot?

No, you can't. The index gives you a list of units that are allowed to take the blood angels chapter. You cannot just assign it to anything with <chapter>.

Again, that's internal restrictions on the Blood Angels chapter keyword, not restrictions on keywords themselves.

Hang on fellas.

Everyone is on the same page here, but you are all just explaining your understanding poorly.

What we have with the indices are 2 different types of keyword tag exemptions. Some sub-groups of faction tags restrict specific options in different manners.

Militarum Tempestus is actually part of Astra Militarum, the regiment tag rules state that they are a type of regiment that can only be used with the pre-set dataslates.

The special space marine chapters are still chapters, but each one hands you a list of flexible-tagged units which are allowed and a denial to those not on the list nor carrying a pre-set tag.

The Chaos Marine Codex does the same for its legion rules: legion in the main book cannot be set to deathguard nor t-sons, because they have/will have their own book.

The FAQ did not apply to the thread when it was posted, and the understanding on that was a little hazy as well. The FAQ has to do with attempting to abuse the variable keywords to set all of them from different keyword-groups(chapter, regiment, forge world, etc) to the same word(s) and have them all share benefits based on that word(or transports/etc). GW answered that question rather poorly, denying a same-set. Same set is still valid and legal if you are designing your own, it is the specific plug-in that denies shared benefits. For example a home-brew Iron Hands successor takes up residency on a homebrew Forgeworld called Harkonen. They simply name themselves after their new world and so a Chapter: Harkonen. The Forge world for the AdMech forces would also be Harkonen, and a Guard Regiment from this world would be Harkonen. All of this is fine. What is not fine is having an officer of Regiment Harkonen give orders to a Chapter Harkonen tac squad while a skitarri Harkonen unit gets into a rhino from chapter harkonen.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Hang on fellas.

Everyone is on the same page here, but you are all just explaining your understanding poorly.

What we have with the indices are 2 different types of keyword tag exemptions. Some sub-groups of faction tags restrict specific options in different manners.

Militarum Tempestus is actually part of Astra Militarum, the regiment tag rules state that they are a type of regiment that can only be used with the pre-set dataslates.

The special space marine chapters are still chapters, but each one hands you a list of flexible-tagged units which are allowed and a denial to those not on the list nor carrying a pre-set tag.

The Chaos Marine Codex does the same for its legion rules: legion in the main book cannot be set to deathguard nor t-sons, because they have/will have their own book.

The FAQ did not apply to the thread when it was posted, and the understanding on that was a little hazy as well. The FAQ has to do with attempting to abuse the variable keywords to set all of them from different keyword-groups(chapter, regiment, forge world, etc) to the same word(s) and have them all share benefits based on that word(or transports/etc). GW answered that question rather poorly, denying a same-set. Same set is still valid and legal if you are designing your own, it is the specific plug-in that denies shared benefits. For example a home-brew Iron Hands successor takes up residency on a homebrew Forgeworld called Harkonen. They simply name themselves after their new world and so a Chapter: Harkonen. The Forge world for the AdMech forces would also be Harkonen, and a Guard Regiment from this world would be Harkonen. All of this is fine. What is not fine is having an officer of Regiment Harkonen give orders to a Chapter Harkonen tac squad while a skitarri Harkonen unit gets into a rhino from chapter harkonen.

Very eloquently put sir! Have yourself an Exalt!

So I think it is legal however to Change the generic <regiment> key word to Millitarum Tempestus. So a company commander can be from the scions. You can't however change the Scion keyword to cadian. So if you use creed and your regiments aren't from Cadia, he's useless. SO a Scions army cannot have Creed., or put him to any use.

Lungpickle wrote:
So I think it is legal however to Change the generic <regiment> key word to Millitarum Tempestus. So a company commander can be from the scions. You can't however change the Scion keyword to cadian. So if you use creed and your regiments aren't from Cadia, he's useless. SO a Scions army cannot have Creed., or put him to any use.

From page 10 of Index Imperium 2

You cannot choose to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword with MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, but you can use any of the other regiments that you have read about, or make up your own.

 Ghaz wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
So I think it is legal however to Change the generic <regiment> key word to Millitarum Tempestus. So a company commander can be from the scions. You can't however change the Scion keyword to cadian. So if you use creed and your regiments aren't from Cadia, he's useless. SO a Scions army cannot have Creed., or put him to any use.

From page 10 of Index Imperium 2

You cannot choose to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword with MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, but you can use any of the other regiments that you have read about, or make up your own.

Almost like if you read the rules they've thought of some stuff already...

To the OP, the Prime costs more base than a normal CC because he can "deep strike". And he has a different stat line.

As has been noted, there is a specific restriction. Besides, Harker makes non-Catachan regiments a Chump-Choice. If you want Pask, take a supreme command detachment with extra Tank Commander Russes!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
So I think it is legal however to Change the generic <regiment> key word to Millitarum Tempestus. So a company commander can be from the scions. You can't however change the Scion keyword to cadian. So if you use creed and your regiments aren't from Cadia, he's useless. SO a Scions army cannot have Creed., or put him to any use.

From page 10 of Index Imperium 2

You cannot choose to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword with MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, but you can use any of the other regiments that you have read about, or make up your own.

Almost like if you read the rules they've thought of some stuff already...

Plus a scion army CAN have Creed (even in the same detachment) although he can't give them orders. It's still a battleforged army though so his Tactical Genius rule still works.

So fail in every way from Lungpickle.