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Hey guys, been trying to figure out the most efficient way to play a BT CQC list in 8th for weeks now, and i'm coming up a bit short so I thought i'd make a post on my thoughts on BT and attempting to build a "proper" BT army in 8th edition. I am by no means a mega-experienced player (nor a great one at that xD) and most of my time in the hobby was spent playing WHFB WoC instead of 40K, which explains my predilection for the glory of Close Combat. Anyway, lets carry on:

With the unit choices, and the new detachment system, I am stuck on how to fill in the core of a BT army. By this I mean that I can see three viable choices to build an army around; Crusader Squads, Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans. This is where I hit my first hurdle, because while Crusader squads are the best MSU choice for shooty purposes if you go with the tried and tested Las/Plas, for close assault the Crusader Squad is arguably redundant when you can take Assault Marines in an Outrider Detachment.

Assault marines are identical to Crusaders both stat-wise and points wise, unless you give them Jump Packs, then they become all the better, plus their general load-out is vastly better suited to a CQC army imo. An assault squad, with 5 Marines, can take 3 Plasma Pistols and still dish out 11 attacks, can retreat from combat and still shoot because of the Fly USR and have the advantage of deep-strike and 12" movement, all for a mere 3 additional points per model.

Crusaders on the other hand, require a significantly greater points investment to deliver them into combat, by means of either a transport or more bodies to soak up fire. The upgrade options for Crusaders are the same as a tactical squad, barring swapping out a heavy weapon for a Power Weap/Fist.

I'm not a competitive player, but I do like efficiency in my list building when it comes to squeezing out value for points.
So what i've got is this choice (not including upgrades):
5 Assault Marines w/ JP - 80 pts
5 Crusaders - 65 pts
However, the crusaders need either a) More bodies for footslogging, or b) transportation. So i'll add on 5 extra models to each unit to be fair, plus the means of getting into combat (still no upgrades):
- 10 Assault Marines w/ JP: 160 pts
- 10 Crusaders : 130 pts + 72 pts (Rhino) for a total of 202 pts

The Assault Marines are just faster, cheaper (considering method of travel) and have better USR in the form of Fly. The only downside I see with Assault marines, is you only get 5 per box, and at the end of the day, they are still just flying tactical marines (which apparently on this forum, is a bad thing from what I understand? Why so much Tact hate guys? )

I would love to run Crusader squads as Sigismund intended (Running like madmen into CQC), but with the increase in costs to transports in general, its a significant points investment for what amounts to a glorified tactical squad that has the option to run with cqc weapons and possibly 20 men. So far the only reason I would run a Crusader squad is running 9 bodies in a Rhino alongside the Emperors Champion to catch bullets for him.

Now, I have not had the chance to test the new rules regarding vehicles, but I did used to run a Razorback heavy list back in 7th and I do love mechanised forces, so perhaps the new rules justify the points hike on transports, but it just seems to be too high a points investment to run what is basically a tact squad into combat, and if the transport pops, they'll be stranded.

Anyway, there are my thoughts on building a BT list so far. I am keenly aware that the only time you need to run Troops choices as SM is using the Battalion or Brigade detachment for the +CP, but it just seems a shame that the crusader squad is relegated to being a shooty unit when it should be charging up the field zealously.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe i'm looking into this too much by min/maxing squads, just let me know

Failing that, can has BT Codex again please?

The sad fact of it is that marines are just pretty terrible at close combat.

That being said, if you want to do it, Black Templars do have some tools to help them do it.

Helbrecht + a Lieutenant makes even a 5 man crusader squad "decent" at it. You can have a 5 man squad with 2 power swords, a plasma gun, and a combi-plasma for 101 points, and between rapid firing and charging, they can actually put out some decent damage, being able to statistically kill a 5 man marine squad.

You will notice that most of the damage still comes from shooting, but there isn't a ton you can do about that with marines.

I don't think it is the most competitive option, but it's not terrible, and 2-3 of these units might be okay if the rest of the list is well put together.

That being said, I would think vanguard vets are the better option for assault heavy lifting. Having 2 attacks base, and further weapon options makes them the best assault option for marines. The BT chapter tactics also helps them drop in and get into combat.

Finally, i think you are underestimating the usefulness of rhinos. Even once the guys get out, they are still quite useful for charging, locking up, and blocking things, so i don't think 1-2 are out of place in a list.

I've had some success lately with a simple and fluffy list, here's roughly what I take:

HQ:
Helbrecht
Techmarine with Axe, Servo arm and Boltgun (in LRC)
Chaplain with Croxius and Boltgun (Primarch's Wrath) (in Rhino)
The Emperor's Champion (in Transport)

Troops:
Crusader SQ of 7 with 2 P.Swords and 1 Meltagun. Times two, in LRC
Crusader SQ of 9 with 2 P.Axe and 1 Flamer. Times two, in Rhinos.

Elites:
Cenobytes (just to make the slot..)
Vanguard Vets with 3 TH/SS and 2 sets of Claws
Venerable Dread with Lascannons, Fist and H.Flamer

Heavy:
LRC with MM/HKM
Predator with AC/LC

Transport:
2 Rhinos with two S.Bolters each

Flyer:
Stormhawk Interceptor kitted with AntiAir weapons, 2 AC too

My follow up post got lost and my list alone doesn't help much...

Badly lost about 15 game of 8th until the way I see the models changed, Transports are expensive but always shooting at full BS makes them a good fire support, if not the only one running CC Crusade squads. Hence the 2 S.Bolters on Rhinos 2 points each for 4 shots in RF.
LRC isn't the first turn assault vehicle anymore so don't rush it, move it carefully and keep it alive, its firepower in 8th it's huge, deliver Crusaders and engage in combat and when you had enough fall back and shoot with the LRC, 24 S4 shots and 12 S6 ones will wipe anything left...
The Techmarine helps a lot as a deterrent and repairs, also capable in combat.

Helbrecht give the models +1S especially useful for Chainswords and P.Swords and rerolls for the whole blob including LRC and the 4 Meltas which makes for a fairly capable mobile AA.

Chaplain rolls with Rhinos, 4 Axes and 2 Flamers giving the 18 models rerolls, the Primarch's Wrath it's a nice addition to keep the blob versatile.

My latest addition the Interceptor it's great against flyers hitting on 2+ and the 2 AC are always in range to dish out 12 shots at S6, doesn't seem like much but over 4-5 turns the damage adds up.

Predator with the great AC (3D) it's good but the nearby Dreadnought makes it way more durable, cover your deployment from drops and pop the occasional reroll 1s stratagem, you'll have 6 Lascannons and Pred AC all game long.

Won every game since playing "correctly" with the opponent conceding on turn 3-4, both swarm and elite armies, careful movement and strategy pays out over few turns, surely not a tournament list but wouldn't listen too much to people telling you Marines are not good...

Shooty Crusader MSUs are a great asset for Templars. Maybe its my meta, but 99 pts for a 5man with plasma,combi plas, and heavy bolter as a troop choice is pretty good. its decent dakka, and you can take multiples inside our transports.

You have to realize that we are still Space Marines. Do not think we should be going to melee all the time. We are not tyranids/de/demons. As a BT player you have to adjust to what we have available. Our crusaders are not melee specialists, we are just a step better than other tacticals at melee.

They're troops and troops are the backbone of an army. They let our specialized units do what they are good. Have them screen your back line units against deepstrikes. Use them as stopgap solutions against charges.

Heres a quick example of my lists which usually includes a Stormraven and for transport and firepower.

Stormraven
1x crusader squad w/ Bolters 1x plasma, SB w/ combi plasma
1x crusader squad w/ BP and chainswords 1x power sword, SB with Dual lightning claws
Last 2 spots are for whichever HQ or elite choice I bring (Usually EC at least)

And an Ironclad in the back.


Dropping an Ironclad dread in your enemy's backline will attract a lot of attention. While he is busy distracting and taking out heavy armour, my crusaders will drop where they can hit targets of opportunity. They may not have the firepower of sternguards or the melee ability of vanguards but they do well enough.

So how, are primaris marines working out for Black Templars?

Both agressors and reivers seem to fit the BT combat-oriented style and with the repulsor they have a decent transport to get into combat.