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2017/09/18 02:34:04
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Hello!
1.) Apologies if this has already been asked, I could not find it. If the counter-offensive stratagem is used on a unit that "fights last" due to a psychic power can the unit fight immediately?
Here's the rules:
COUNTER-OFFENSIVE (2 CP): This Stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.
MASS HYPNOSIS (WARP CHARGE 7): ...the target cannot fire overwatch, fights last in the fight phase even if it charged, and must subtract one from its hit rolls (Genestealer Cults).
2.) What if the unit "fights first" due to another psychic power, like so?
VEIL OF TIME (WARP CHARGE 6): ...they always fight first in the fight phase even if they didn't charge... (Space Marines).
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2017/09/18 04:14:22
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Like the people who are so fond of quoting "unless otherwise stated", I can point to where the stratagem states "Select... eligible unit" and point out that a unit that can only fight last would not be considered eligible to fight next. Automatically Appended Next Post: For the second one, I believe the stratagem wouldn't even need to be used as the Space Marines fight before even your opponent does, which is before you are allowed to activate the stratagem.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 04:16:24
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. |
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2017/09/18 04:25:58
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster
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Arkaine wrote:Like the people who are so fond of quoting "unless otherwise stated", I can point to where the stratagem states "Select... eligible unit" and point out that a unit that can only fight last would not be considered eligible to fight next.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the second one, I believe the stratagem wouldn't even need to be used as the Space Marines fight before even your opponent does, which is before you are allowed to activate the stratagem.
The problem with this argument (and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with it), is that by that logic, no non-charging unit is eligible to "fight next", because charging units fight before non-charging units. So we would have to first determine what "eligible" means, with the only guidelines we really have being "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase".
Personally, I'd say the better argument for them not being able to go next, would be the standard specific > general concept, and the fact that the rule affecting the unit in question specifically states the fight "last". To me that would override any other ability that affects fight order.
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"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" |
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2017/09/18 05:27:57
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Dakka Veteran
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AnFéasógMór wrote:
Personally, I'd say the better argument for them not being able to go next, would be the standard specific > general concept, and the fact that the rule affecting the unit in question specifically states the fight "last". To me that would override any other ability that affects fight order.
How would you resolve this against a unit of Daemonettes who always go first due to Quicksilver Swiftness? Quicksilver is equally specific in it's verbage.
Also, how would you deal with two units being affected by Mass Hypnosis fighting each other? They both can't go last!
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2017/09/18 05:59:52
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster
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JakeSiren wrote:AnFéasógMór wrote:
Personally, I'd say the better argument for them not being able to go next, would be the standard specific > general concept, and the fact that the rule affecting the unit in question specifically states the fight "last". To me that would override any other ability that affects fight order.
How would you resolve this against a unit of Daemonettes who always go first due to Quicksilver Swiftness? Quicksilver is equally specific in it's verbage.
Also, how would you deal with two units being affected by Mass Hypnosis fighting each other? They both can't go last!
Fairly simply. in the first example, you wouldn't need to resolve it, because the situation would literally never come up in conflict with the rules. Counter-offensive can be triggered after a unit that charged fights. Since the Daemonettes fight first, they would have already fought before any charging unit would have fought, meaning when you triggered counter-offensive, the Daemonettes wouldn't be eligible anyway, because the rules explicitly state no unit may be activated to fight twice in the same fight phase.
In the case of two units affected by Mass Hypnosis, that GW would have to clarify, because they don't give any guidelines as to how to resolve multiple units fighting first or last, and until then you would just need to work it out with your opponent. My personal thought would be to save those two units until the end of combat, and then either go in player order, or roll off.
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"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" |
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2017/09/18 06:15:35
Subject: Re:Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Dakka Veteran
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Sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about quicksilver vs mass hypnosis, not quicksilver vs counter-attack. How would you resolve these two?
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2017/09/18 06:32:16
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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AnFéasógMór,
What about two Units of Daemonette charging and the Counter-Offensive Stratagem being evoked after the first Unit resolves?
Quicksilver Swiftness: This unit always fights first in
the Fight phase even if it didn’t charge. If the enemy has
units that have charged, or that have a similar ability,
then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with
the player whose turn is taking place.
I find it interesting that the Authors highlight that enemy Charging Units, and Units with similar abilities as Quicksilver, follow the default 'I choose one, you choose one' pattern.
If they have informed us to follow this pattern for two 'Go First' abilities, what do you believe they will tell us to do with two 'Go Last' abilities?
Opening Poster,
What happens if a single Unit is hit with a 'Go Last' and 'Go First' ability is a very good question!
I fully expect Game Workshop to give the 'both abilities are neutralized' answer they provided to similar situations in the past... might already be written down somewhere but it is getting late and my research-fu is waning.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 06:35:43
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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2017/09/18 08:57:14
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Slippery Scout Biker
Philadelphia, PA
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AnFéasógMór wrote:In the case of two units affected by Mass Hypnosis, that GW would have to clarify, because they don't give any guidelines as to how to resolve multiple units fighting first or last, and until then you would just need to work it out with your opponent. My personal thought would be to save those two units until the end of combat, and then either go in player order, or roll off.
The Sequencing section of the core rules (p. 178) is pretty clear about what to do when two or more rules must be resolved at the same time. If they happen before or after the game, or at the beginning or end of a battle round, the players roll off. Otherwise, the player whose turn it is determines the order.
In the case of two or more units required to fight last, you would save them until the end of the phase and then the player whose turn it is would choose the order.
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2017/09/18 12:43:25
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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HIWPI
If a unit normally goes first but is hit with a "goes last" rebuff it goes last. The power overrides its normal ability.
I agree with Arkhaine's interpretation above too.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/09/18 15:22:43
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I agree with JohnnyHell, that makes the most sense.
As for the hit with go first and last thing from different powers or buffs, there are 2 ways to play it. You could do it with first in first out rules, so if the unit is hit with go last, then hit with go first they would end up going first as it was the last power to hit them and it overrides the first power. Or you could look at it as a null effect, the first power makes them go last because it makes them slower, but the second makes them go faster so in the end they go the normal speed. Personally I think it's the first one, if I use a power or stratagem that overrides existing conditions then that's what happens, if fully over rides them.
So a unit with quicksilver would go last under hypnosis, but a unit under hypnosis hit with veil of time would go first.
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2017/09/18 17:18:47
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Dakka Veteran
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The strategem allows you to select an eligible unit only. So a unit with strikes last would not be eligible unless all other units had fought.
A unit like slaanesh that strikes first is no different than a charging unit. If it's hit by a power that forces it to strike last, then it strikes last. Due to the turn sequence it is impossible to have a unit affected by a psychic power that makes it strike first, and another that makes it strike last.
IE A unit will never have hypnosis AND veil of time at the same time. There would have been a fight phase, and a turn end in between those two powers.
So no you cannot use the stratagem to interrupt the fight sequence and select a unit with "strikes last" to fight. If both units have strike first or strike last then players turn it is selects a unit to fight first, and then it goes back and forth as normal.
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2017/09/18 17:57:52
Subject: Counter-Offensive Stratagem & Units That "Fight Last"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't know about hypnosis but veil of time lasts until the start of your next psychic phase so yes, you can have a situation where a unit has veil of time on it then gets hypnotized. If that happened I would say hypnosis takes president as its the newest power to be cast.
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