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Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

So, I have tried running Kusanagi a few times and quite frankly I find her... Meh.
Now, do not get me wrong, she is good stat-wise and she has some great equipment, but what really seems to let her down is her cost. Simply put, she is too expensive for what she does as at 40 points she costs more than a lot of Heavy Infantry I can get, and only about 10ish points cheaper than a SWAST or a Kriza, both of which are far better. My problem with her is that she just seems to be inefficient for what she costs, even when run in a core link with Moiras and a Reverend Healer she still does not perform well for what she costs.
Part of this can probably be attributed to her being a MI, which immediately reduces her movement, but this is not the end of it. You see, instead of the above mentioned Moiras+Healer+Kusanagi Core Link (Kusanagi with Multi+LFT, Healer with BSG, Moiras Hacker, Moiras HMG, Moiras costing 176 points) I can take a Riot Girl Core Link (Specialist, BSG+Tinbot, Multi, Missile Launcher, Spitfire costing 159 points) which is cheaper, has a lot more versatility, has more firepower, is faster and is a lot tougher (2 wounds each) for 16 points less. The only downsides are being hackable (partially negated by the Tinbot with its L2 deflector) and the lack of an integral hacker.
Kusanagi can of course be run on her own, but once again that 4-2 movement and massive points cost let her down badly. She is just not good enough really be taken over any of the other alternatives, all of which are faster and tougher and many of which cost a lot less than she does.

So, what makes Kusanagi so expensive in the first place? To be honest, I do not know. She has 2 more BS than a Moiras, a LFT, V; NWC, Specialist Operative, +1 phys and E/M grenades all of which seem nice at a first glance, and do seem to make up for the extra points, but all gloss over the fact that she is still a relatively squishy and very slow unit. What is more she could quite easily drop the E/M grenades to save on some points as they are incredibly situational and might see use once in a blue moon.

All in all, I would not mind seeing a slight points reduction for Kusanagi, and for that matter the Moiras as well. When compared to the alternatives they do seem incredible expensive, even if they do possess an ODD.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Morias are not super popular from what I gather, but I do kind of like Kusanagi in a Haris with a Healer and Custodier hacker. I think MI in general is in a tough place to form a Core link, at least in Nomads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 15:33:52


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Riverside, CA USA

Well, there's other options if you prefer, but personally I think you're crazy. Kusanagi is incredible for all the same reasons you just gave for her being "overcosted": BS14, NWI, ODD, specialist, multiple options for fireteam core/haris etc. She has a broad toolkit and she's one of the best LT options Bakunin has, even if she's an obvious LT choice. She isn't bad as an assault piece, but there's better options. However, she's amazing as a backup for your assault pieces. Put her down in cover and put her in suppressive fire and she's a -12 to F2F roll, just keep her back to watch backfield against infiltrate/AD or a close objective or hold a zone. She's an OK offensive piece, but she's a GREAT defensive one even without a fireteam.

Yes, she's slower than an HI, but she isn't an HI, and she's only slower if you aren't doing anything after you move. She's still cheap enough that even in a full core link you can still take other fun toys, including a Riot Grrls haris (or a Moira haris and a Riot grrls core). A SWAST/GRRL will be physically tougher in a straight up take-the-hit sort of way, but in many firefights a higher BS+ODD and NWI is going to make you last longer than a couple extra ARM and a proper 2nd wound.

She's a mid-range piece, use her in mid range. She doesn't always kill 44 points worth of enemies, but she almost always causes enough issues to my opponent to more than justify her cost.

~Kalamadea (aka ember)
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Made in us
PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant






Kusanagi's great at her price. The only part that hurts is SWC: You rely on SWC for Bakunin's ability to hit. The other is that a full 5-Moiras link is wasteful, but she makes a solid Haris group.

 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Kalamadea wrote:Well, there's other options if you prefer, but personally I think you're crazy. Kusanagi is incredible for all the same reasons you just gave for her being "overcosted": BS14, NWI, ODD, specialist, multiple options for fireteam core/haris etc. She has a broad toolkit and she's one of the best LT options Bakunin has, even if she's an obvious LT choice. She isn't bad as an assault piece, but there's better options. However, she's amazing as a backup for your assault pieces. Put her down in cover and put her in suppressive fire and she's a -12 to F2F roll, just keep her back to watch backfield against infiltrate/AD or a close objective or hold a zone. She's an OK offensive piece, but she's a GREAT defensive one even without a fireteam.

Yes, she's slower than an HI, but she isn't an HI, and she's only slower if you aren't doing anything after you move. She's still cheap enough that even in a full core link you can still take other fun toys, including a Riot Grrls haris (or a Moira haris and a Riot grrls core). A SWAST/GRRL will be physically tougher in a straight up take-the-hit sort of way, but in many firefights a higher BS+ODD and NWI is going to make you last longer than a couple extra ARM and a proper 2nd wound.

She's a mid-range piece, use her in mid range. She doesn't always kill 44 points worth of enemies, but she almost always causes enough issues to my opponent to more than justify her cost.

The main problem is that the higher BS never really counts for anything. It may be down to my local meta + table setup, but a lot of the time we end up using template weapons which outright negate ODD and high BS in a shootout, and longer range engagements are not all that common.
Once again I am not saying she is crap or vastly overpriced, but coming down a few points could not hurt her, especially as she really is stepping on the toes of multiple HI, and those HI can be healed back from unconscious where as a single shock round will do for Kusanagi.

Killionaire wrote:Kusanagi's great at her price. The only part that hurts is SWC: You rely on SWC for Bakunin's ability to hit. The other is that a full 5-Moiras link is wasteful, but she makes a solid Haris group.

If you take her with a Multi Rifle and as a lieutenant you gain an extra SWC. She can help in that respct, but she is still expensive.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Riverside, CA USA

Yeah, if you're playing games where template weapons are more common than F2F rolls to the point that "BS never really counts for anything", then you have way WAY WAY too much terrain on the table. That's a much bigger problem than just Kusanagi, it's going to skew EVERYTHING you play with. I'd argue that Kusanagi isn't too expensive, your meta just doesn't play in a way where she can actually do what she's costed to do. Taking too much terrain puts a LOT of models in that situation, it makes cheap WB troops too effective and HMG/MSR/ML troops not effective enough for their points

~Kalamadea (aka ember)
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Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch






I think Kusanagi is great, she wins firefights very easily. You just can't use her how you would use a similarly pointed cost HI.

Aftermath can be calculated.

Dark humor is like food, not everyone gets it.  
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Rasyat






Kusanagi (and Moiras) are just one of those profiles that if you have the hard counter to her in the right place she dies with little impact.

If you don't, she's super annoying.

Like everything else, your mileage depends on how well you handle the profile on the table. Bran Do Castro is in a similar boat.

   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Kalamadea wrote:Yeah, if you're playing games where template weapons are more common than F2F rolls to the point that "BS never really counts for anything", then you have way WAY WAY too much terrain on the table. That's a much bigger problem than just Kusanagi, it's going to skew EVERYTHING you play with. I'd argue that Kusanagi isn't too expensive, your meta just doesn't play in a way where she can actually do what she's costed to do. Taking too much terrain puts a LOT of models in that situation, it makes cheap WB troops too effective and HMG/MSR/ML troops not effective enough for their points

Its not just the terrain, although it does tend to get dense on the flanks - unless you run down the open fire lanes that is. Its the smoke + Intuitive attack units, or the AD models with Nanopulsers, or the cheap Heavy Flamethrower bods. They all take their toll quite spectacularly and it seems that every player has a good answer to ODD, including at one point a TO bod with an MSV and a Missile Launcher.

avantgarde wrote:Kusanagi (and Moiras) are just one of those profiles that if you have the hard counter to her in the right place she dies with little impact.

If you don't, she's super annoying.

Like everything else, your mileage depends on how well you handle the profile on the table. Bran Do Castro is in a similar boat.


Given what people have said I am willing to give Kusanagi another chance, this time minus the linkteam in order to conserve points. However Moiras are just too expensive to bring en-mass when Core's of Riot Grrrls are an option. Moiras... I like them and the fluff but they are just too pricey and slow to allow me to bring more than one or two. I might use one as a lieutenant, or bring the hacker if Interventors are not an option, but that is it. Speed is once again the real killer here.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Rasyat






 master of ordinance wrote:
However Moiras are just too expensive to bring en-mass when Core's of Riot Grrrls are an option. Moiras... I like them and the fluff but they are just too pricey and slow to allow me to bring more than one or two. I might use one as a lieutenant, or bring the hacker if Interventors are not an option, but that is it. Speed is once again the real killer here.
Agreed, if you're going to dump points into full combat link, Grrls are better point for point every time due to their flexibility in all situations. The one edge case is getting white noised by a savvy player; HRL Overdrons will eat exposed Riot links on turn 1.

There are pretty much only two efficient Moira profiles, the solo HMG and to a lesser extent the MSR. I guess you can run a Haris with some sort of combo of Healer, Custodier and Kusanagi. But you're still paying 60+ pts for burst 4->5 on a static attack piece.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/25 17:55:48


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Grrls are better because of the "Frenzy" discount inherent in their profiles and the fact that they can basically mitigate it right away.

Just remember that before investing too heavily in tons of Riot Grrls.
   
Made in ca
Combat Jumping Rasyat






The Frenzy is only one component, the base profile has perfect range bands (+3 to hit) out to 32", MSV1 to mitigate camo mods, PH16 dodge, bare bones specialists, templates, 2 wounds and they're highly resistant to hacking. Not to mention access to the best Doctor in the game. Riot Grrls backed by Avicenna are disgustingly resilient.

Positioned correctly you'll be hard pressed to engage a full fire team in a statistically safe way even in their reactive phase. Even a fully tricked out Rui Shi struggles against them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/26 02:27:56


 
   
Made in br
Fresh-Faced New User




She is a very good rambo.

BS 14 with a spitfire, ODD and NWI. She is as good of a Rambo piece as you can think off, without all the vulnerabilities of running HI ( but, yes, very vulnerable to shock/mines)

The Moira team doesnt work very well because you have nothing cheap that can fill it. Enamotarchos on Aleph work very well because you can add 16pt myrms to the mix if needed.

Also - comparing them to Riott Grrls - Moiras are more likely to win almost any firefight than grrls, but they are much more vulnerable to msv and crits. It is - like most things in infinity - a trade off. On this case, its not a very worth trade off, but that is because of another reason:

Grrls are probably the most cost effective HI link in the game. The combination of good but not overly expensive BS, cheap -as-chips MSV to deal with the biggest threat to FTF roll - vision mods, Hyper Dynamis to dodge if things don't look good and the frenzy discount is very hard to get anywhere else.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




They only thing that hurts me about her is she is soooooo slow.
Overall she is a beast in a link team, and a solid solo aggressive piece, but shock is dangerous!!!
   
 
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