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Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! 5th Anniversary One Player Starters. p.92.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






vultute wrote:
I read the new army list.
I think it's a good thing that retinue is no longer available because there is no sign that it will be completed no matter how long it takes.
The third sub faction of the Sorcerer Kings, the Tribe mentioned during the vote has been erased.
I feel it lacks integrity to not promote the characters that were used to promote the vote, such as this and there is no announce Old Dominion's Burning Angel.

They where split into their own faction. They realized that the SORC kings are so unique compqred to tribes, they couldn't do rules for them

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Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Sort of the M.O. of the company at this point. They say one thing, then realize they "can't" do that thing.

I've learned to temper expectations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/13 16:00:06


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
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I mean, they said they had about 22 factions planned

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The Great State of New Jersey

Id be surprised if they got through 22 factions. Thats a lot for whats still a relatively small company and game. And at their present pace it would take another 15 years for them to get it all out.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

For a small company, their output has been IMO remarkable and doubly so considering they don't rely on splashy crowdfunding campaigns for both production and marketing. (And, yes, I understand the business is a side project for the shipping magnate owner)

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




22 faction !?
I know some articles that mention 18faction, but where can I find the exception about 22faction?
I don't think the tribe will be an interesting faction on its own, so Parabellum should forget about them and focus on more attractive factons.
   
Made in gr
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 Rihgu wrote:
Sort of the M.O. of the company at this point. They say one thing, then realize they "can't" do that thing.

I've learned to temper expectations.


Can you give other examples because from my point of view they have been pretty consistent.
   
Made in us
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Sasorijap wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
Sort of the M.O. of the company at this point. They say one thing, then realize they "can't" do that thing.

I've learned to temper expectations.


Can you give other examples because from my point of view they have been pretty consistent.


The entire aghm system they recently re-did because the original plans weren't viable.
The entire Living World system they recently re-did because the original plans weren't viable.
The entire retinue system they recently removed from the game because the original plans weren't viable.
Talking up Old Dominion as the faction without ANY HEALING! AT ALL! PERIOD! NO HEALING! Repeatedly. And then releasing them as a faction with uh, pretty good healing!
"Tontorr is so big it's on TWO bases!"
Less explicitly,
removal of unit entries from army lists (Bound, Court Squires) fits the bill.
Substantial changes to unit entries upon release/right before release.
There has been a magic rework talked about for a long time, which has not materialized yet. I'm pretty sure but not 100% sure they've said it would come with the Sorcerer Kings in a happy hour at one point.
W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.

There's a few things Nords and Spires players have pointed out recently that I don't necessarily agree with, but yea overall I've learned to take what they say with a grain of salt and wait until models/PDFs are out.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 Rihgu wrote:

W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.


I don't follow the rules of the game so I'm curious... is there a big difference between the other stats or the power level of the special abilities between the monsters for the two factions? Or Parabellum specifically cite the the three actions as the reason for the removal? What happens to players who bought and use the models? Can they still use them with a different stat line or are they just sidelined for now?

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 warboss wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:

W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.


I don't follow the rules of the game so I'm curious... is there a big difference between the other stats or the power level of the special abilities between the monsters for the two factions? Or Parabellum specifically cite the the three actions as the reason for the removal? What happens to players who bought and use the models? Can they still use them with a different stat line or are they just sidelined for now?


Basically, W'adrhun could give a character a mastery to let them ride a dinosaur, and then take an artefact that allowed that dinosaur to be Fanatic (allows tier 3 chanting). The third tier of the Conquest chant line allowed the activating unit to take 3 actions.

So if you devoted an almost 200 point character to a 300 point monster, and began that monster's activation with a token in your chant pool (the W'adrhun specific army mechanic, kind of complicated to explain), it could take 3 actions. GRANTED, A tontorr is pretty powerful. A march action (for 9"), followed by a charge action (6+1d6", allows impacts), followed by a clash (16 attacks, 1s cause extra hits), ended with a trample (10 automatic hits with no special rules) is very powerful especially on a 24W beast, but it did involve ~500 points and some amount of setup.

What happened was the artefact used to make the dinosaur a Fanatic was made to be "infantry only". And as a smaller part, the character that was usually used to ride the dinosaur lost it's ability to buff the dinosaur with the ability to re-roll hits during clashes, and the dinosaur itself went up in points, so a triple layer of nerfs.

At the same time, the Sorcerer Kings get 2 ~250 point monsters with specialties in either killing characters or monsters, and when you "resolve a ritual" (the also complicated Sorcerer King army rule), if an Elemental unit activates next they get 3 actions. So, same deal. 7" march (usually to get into flank), 7+1d6" charge with 5 impact hits, a bunch of attacks (usually with re-rolls if you're fighting your preferred target) and then when said target activates they take 5 automatic hits from Aura of Death. Yes, overall weaker, but also priced down (at this point the Sorc King monster is half the cost of the old W'adrhun monster, but probably not only half as effective). Also, you can theoretically do this multiple times per round with multiple monsters with Sorc Kings, where W'adrhun were always limited to a single one in the army.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Thanks for the detailed rundown of the rules interaction. Honestly, it sounds potentially reasonable for them to make the change from your description though admittedly I've never even seen a game played myself. Initially I thought they got rid fo a unit completely but it sounds more like they got rid of a potentially problematic combo. I do fully understand why players who built their army around that large points sink would be upset though.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
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For why units are removed before release.
Because unreleased units are not legal, they don't bother looking at or balancing them until they are released.
For why models are removed or unreleased units are taken away, they said if they realize a unit fills the same niche or one is clearly better, they would scrap it.
For example, gotr and fenr filled the same niche, so they didn't bother with them

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Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





 Rihgu wrote:
Sasorijap wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
Sort of the M.O. of the company at this point. They say one thing, then realize they "can't" do that thing.

I've learned to temper expectations.


Can you give other examples because from my point of view they have been pretty consistent.


The entire aghm system they recently re-did because the original plans weren't viable.
The entire Living World system they recently re-did because the original plans weren't viable.
The entire retinue system they recently removed from the game because the original plans weren't viable.
Talking up Old Dominion as the faction without ANY HEALING! AT ALL! PERIOD! NO HEALING! Repeatedly. And then releasing them as a faction with uh, pretty good healing!
"Tontorr is so big it's on TWO bases!"
Less explicitly,
removal of unit entries from army lists (Bound, Court Squires) fits the bill.
Substantial changes to unit entries upon release/right before release.
There has been a magic rework talked about for a long time, which has not materialized yet. I'm pretty sure but not 100% sure they've said it would come with the Sorcerer Kings in a happy hour at one point.
W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.

There's a few things Nords and Spires players have pointed out recently that I don't necessarily agree with, but yea overall I've learned to take what they say with a grain of salt and wait until models/PDFs are out.


So Aghm system was remade because they grew bigger than expected and manually giving rewards to a 1000 people is not viable.
The Living World system never changed..what are you talking about?
Retinue removal was a rule update. They weren't popular with the community to begin with. It happens.
Regarding removal of units, it only happened for the first four factions. Things change when the game grows and the developers gain experience. For example they changed an infantry unit for the Dweghom to a new Monster.
Magic rework happened. You don't choose spells anymore. All casters have all the spells available from their respective schools.
   
Made in us
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Sasorijap wrote:
So Aghm system was remade because they grew bigger than expected and manually giving rewards to a 1000 people is not viable.

Yes. It changed because it wasn't viable. Exactly like I said.
The Living World system never changed..what are you talking about?

It changed from following individual characters to following grander storylines, again, because it was not viable to follow such small stories.
Retinue removal was a rule update. They weren't popular with the community to begin with. It happens.

Yes.
Regarding removal of units, it only happened for the first four factions. Things change when the game grows and the developers gain experience. For example they changed an infantry unit for the Dweghom to a new Monster.

W'adrhun was the fifth faction. Not sure why you felt like you needed to inform me that things change - you're responding to a post that is an entire list of changes. I'm... quite aware of changes. My primary point is they are terrible at communicating changes and their ongoing intents.
Magic rework happened. You don't choose spells anymore. All casters have all the spells available from their respective schools.

That was a magic *tweak*. They've talked about a grander magic rework. If that's the "rework" they've talked up, then it exactly plays into my point that they're bad at communicating with their players.

For why units are removed before release.
Because unreleased units are not legal, they don't bother looking at or balancing them until they are released.
For why models are removed or unreleased units are taken away, they said if they realize a unit fills the same niche or one is clearly better, they would scrap it.
For example, gotr and fenr filled the same niche, so they didn't bother with them

Vanguards are very quick to say that they playtest unreleased units, and depending on which one is speaking they either playtest them "an equal amount" or "not as much (but still enough!)". Not exactly PB but they do speak on behalf of PB. Plus, as the entire idea of showing us the rules for these units as a preview of what's to come/faction playstyle, huge changes (such as certain Dweghom unit going from Infantry to Monster, or removal of the cheapest unit in a fairly expensive faction) means that they don't serve their purpose as a preview! So there's no real point in showing us these unit profiles, except if they're in immediate plans to be released. And even then, the sculptor might add a cool detail and they'll decide to change the unit's rules to match... In this regard, the slimmed down previews they show of future units in the Sorcerer Kings list is, imho, superior, as long as they can reign themselves in and not decide that the Medium Infantry is going to be Heavy instead.

All I'm saying is with PB it's best to live in the moment with what is here, and not try to look too far in the future. What we have is usually pretty good!

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

The "previews" are a double-edged sword. They take away some level of mystique and possibility from a players understanding of how a faction plays on the table. If you look and see a selection of units forecasted out 5+ years and none of them appeal to you, you could very well be turned off from playing a certain faction, whereas only forecasting ~1 year leaves open door for the medium/long term possibility and that future development will take you somewhere even more interesting or take the faction in different directions. I know in my own case first getting in I found the preview units to generally seem kinda meh, there were some interesting concepts here and there but on the whole they felt very "more of the same". As they've been rolling some of those units out, and in the process reconceptualizing some of them, I've taken renewed interest in certain factions that I previously dismissed.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in es
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Barcelona, Spain

 Rihgu wrote:

W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.



The post has some disingenous takes but i feel this one is the worst offender. Because it implies the tontorr/apex were the only monsters capable of doing 3 actions. Both the nord and city state monsters can perform a free action too.

The w'adrun monster chant *was* busted and could be spammed with greater ease.
   
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Lord Kragan wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:

W'adrhun get their three-action monsters removed from the game "for balance" in the very same update that introduces Sorcerer Kings with their own three-action monsters.



The post has some disingenous takes but i feel this one is the worst offender. Because it implies the tontorr/apex were the only monsters capable of doing 3 actions. Both the nord and city state monsters can perform a free action too.

The w'adrun monster chant *was* busted and could be spammed with greater ease.


Sea Jotnars, Ice Jotnars, Haphaestians and Prometheans (and now Mahuts) are limited in what their third action can be. W'adrhun had true 3-action monsters and now Sorcerer Kings are the only ones. You could only ever have a single monster perform 3 actions in a W'adrhun list, because it relied on a specific item which was once per army. That's... definitively NOT spam-mable, let alone "with greater ease".

With Sorcerer Kings you could set up 3-4 monsters to triple activate in a round.

And I just now remembered the Trinivarta, which can get 3 actions plus a free Volley (which can target every enemy regiment in range of an objective at the same time)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/02/24 14:59:32


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

The monster triple activation could be done every round (and it can still be pulled off with the hero winning a duel)
The SK monsters 'may' be able to pull that multiple times in a row... but the rituals will need 1) One to turn to get it started. Most rituals need about 8 to 12 markers, meaning you'll be either needing to sacrifice certain elemental units, take multiple turns (read, 2) or run MSU out of the wazoo.
2) it will be available the next turn. You are telegraphing the move to your opponent.
3) You can only get that triple action after a ritual. A ritual is an activation in itself and in the mid game the activation order is extremely strict. The 2nd monster to benefit will have taken 4 activations.
4) SK monsters are inferior to W'adruns. Without buffs, an apex is 50 points cheaper than the ravannavar, has an extra point of resolve, terrifying 2 vs 1 and deadly blades. It can also be more tankier with chants, as it goes up to evasion 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/24 18:23:09


 
   
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Teaser for the upcoming Sorcerer Kings animation:


   
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Fresh-Faced New User




People who see this teaser will think that they can control all four elemental magic by themselves. However, we can only use fire and wind magic.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

That was my impression as a normie hanger-on to the thread.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
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The two other elements are coming with future releases
   
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vultute wrote:
People who see this teaser will think that they can control all four elemental magic by themselves. However, we can only use fire and wind magic.



It's possible that they haven't released everything yet....
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





They plan to release the other elements later.

The Rhaksasa is up on the e-shop. Freaking love what i am seeing!
[Thumb - rakshasa-ravana-dual-kit-sorcerer-kings.png]

   
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Sorcerer Kings Trailer is up


   
 
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