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Made in be
Dakka Veteran






Will those artefacts, traits etc be legal on matched play events? aka is this another must buy?

How do you guys think most TO will approach this?
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

Yes, maybe. Who knows. My answers respond to your questions in that order, just in case.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I suspect TO will ban the allegiance abilities (since they are free upgrades) or say they replace the normal allegiance ability. Certainly they won't make it into tournaments as just a free upgrade.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Replace sounds preferable.

Though I could see them making everything even by just allowing GhB2 rules only.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






These rules are mostly just for the campaign gameplay though, not really intended for non-firestorm campaign use (from the sounds of things).

If playing a firestorm campaign, fine, otherwise the new rules will stay in the book.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
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Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

GW is presenting them as an addition to matched play as well as for the campaign.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Gun Mage





There’s more! Firestorm comes with 10 new allegiance abilities representing the unique armies of the Great Cities and those who would tear them down.

.......

We’ll be previewing some of these next week in detail – what’s more, these are usable in any of your games, not just Firestorm!


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/17/firestorm-the-armies-of-the-great-cities-and-the-elite-of-the-death-guard/
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

It will all be up to the individual TOs. If a certain combo is found to be egregiously broken, it'll get comped.


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Torture Victim in the Bowels of the Rock





It looks interesting to be sure, I am definitely going to have a look at it.

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Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu




Southern California

I hate the idea of more rules/abilities/allegainces on top of more rules/abilities/allegiances on top of more...etc

I mean we are 1.5 years into getting points for the game and all ready we have multiple layers of allegiances. More books to buy. I know I may be coming off as "get off my lawn" guy but I judt dont like the vibe I'm getting from this..

   
Made in us
Clousseau




They won't make money any other way. Matched play is where their golden goose lay, pun intended, and if they want to pay stock holders then they need to keep revenue streams flowing.

Making new rules for matched play is about the only sure fire way to do that.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I hate the idea of more rules/abilities/allegainces on top of more rules/abilities/allegiances on top of more...etc

I mean we are 1.5 years into getting points for the game and all ready we have multiple layers of allegiances. More books to buy. I know I may be coming off as "get off my lawn" guy but I judt dont like the vibe I'm getting from this..

Honestly it makes me wonder, because I find it hard to believe they don't know that a free upgrade won't fly with tournament players & normal matched play in general. Assuming that is the case they could have made it a free upgrade and slapped the 'useable everywhere' label on it knowing full well that only a minority would use them outside of Firestorm. They could get the best of both worlds; people buying it to use outside of Firestorm if their group is OK with it while not upsetting competitive-minded players since it will be insta-comped.

It's either very smart or very stupid, with old GW it would have been easy to say which but nowadays...

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Well it seems like they make most of their decisions now after consulting with the SCGT crew...
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/06/firestorm-matched-play-rules-update/

Update for matched play. You must now take the generic Allegiance (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction) instead of a specific Allegiance to get the City bonuses. They are still free.

Also they lifted the restriction on needing to paint your army in a specific color scheme to use the City abilities. So you can create your own City and use the rules for one of named cities in the book. There is still a restriction that if you do use the paint scheme or heraldry for a City you can only use that City's rules
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






That seems fair to me. It may not be exactly what I'd want to see but I give credit to GW for managing this one well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
Well it seems like they make most of their decisions now after consulting with the SCGT crew...
Considering the SCGT's interpretation of 'balance' (this is the group that decided to make monsters and elites cost less 'because they are cool') I don't think that's such a good idea. Makes me wonder if they came up with the massive unit discount idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 17:49:15


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Well... it is what it is. After hanging out on other forums for many months I have come to the conclusion that the concept of "balance" to me is not the same as what a majority of forum-goers want.

I think players enjoy imbalance because it caters to list building more.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 auticus wrote:
Well... it is what it is. After hanging out on other forums for many months I have come to the conclusion that the concept of "balance" to me is not the same as what a majority of forum-goers want.

I think players enjoy imbalance because it caters to list building more.
IMO, it's really that most players don't have the depth of knowledge you do. If they understood the system and the numbers to the same degree they would probably have a much more similar opinion. Another significant factor is that many players don't deal with a competitive environment (by choice or otherwise) and simply care less about balance.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Those could be. A lot of the complaints dealing with Azyr though were "you did great balancing the game, but now its boring since everything is balanced and listbuilding doesn't matter." I got a lot of those emails.

Does PPC get those type of messages?

I also note a lot of people put a ton of faith in the GW devs and are hostile to outside people making changes.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

 auticus wrote:
Well... it is what it is. After hanging out on other forums for many months I have come to the conclusion that the concept of "balance" to me is not the same as what a majority of forum-goers want.

I think players enjoy imbalance because it caters to list building more.


That's a bingo!

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in si
Charging Dragon Prince





The thing that bothers me in all wargames that most games usually end up with ramming the most powerful unit into the opposition,without proper counter there's little a player can do. Perhaps it's what the majority of players enjoy or want.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 14:31:53


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Which is a shame. We cry for balance but at the same time we want imbalance so that we can min/max and distill the game down to a handful of builds.

The thing that bothers me in all wargames that most games usually end up with ramming the most powerful unit into the opposition,without proper counter there's little a player can do. Maybe it's what the majority of players enjoy or want.


Not all but yes many want this type of game. Which isn't really a game to me. Its a foregone conclusion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 14:32:16


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 auticus wrote:
Those could be. A lot of the complaints dealing with Azyr though were "you did great balancing the game, but now its boring since everything is balanced and listbuilding doesn't matter." I got a lot of those emails.

Does PPC get those type of messages?

I also note a lot of people put a ton of faith in the GW devs and are hostile to outside people making changes.
That goes into the depth of knowledge thing. People think that when every option is balanced that means every army is balanced, which is not the case. Having the right spread of troops vs heroes, hammer vs anvil, slow vs mobile, etc is still extremely important. Once things are no longer a matter of 'spam the OP stuff' listbuilding becomes more difficult than many players are used to dealing with. If list building didn't matter that's a legitimate complaint, I'm sure you wouldn't like a game where that was the case, but simply put those people were wrong.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I think you're pretty much on the money. Listbuilding does become more difficult.

With GW games, its usually very simple to find the undercosted units and those are what you spam.

With a system where the undercosted units are not as obvious, or don't exist, it becomes creating the right mix of units... which goes against pretty much most games today and thus to them makes listbuilding "irrelevant"

Or "there's nothing undercost to abuse, I don't like this"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

I honestly wonder if there's a market for a listbuilding only game. You may not even need minis or terrain. You just have a list of units to choose from and then build an army. Your opponent does the same and then----1980s WarGames-style---an app fights the battle, maybe even multiple times to get an average result, in under 30 seconds or so.

You would have to pay for cheesy upgrades and whatnot to make this or that unit OP. The only mission would be Meatgrinder (in fact maybe that'd be a great name for the game).

The snowflake version is, of course, already called narrative play so that players like me would have an experience they enjoy .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 02:01:40


Thread Slayer 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That seems fair to me. It may not be exactly what I'd want to see but I give credit to GW for managing this one well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
Well it seems like they make most of their decisions now after consulting with the SCGT crew...
Considering the SCGT's interpretation of 'balance' (this is the group that decided to make monsters and elites cost less 'because they are cool') I don't think that's such a good idea. Makes me wonder if they came up with the massive unit discount idea.


You two on Dakka are on an island of your own with your opinions on the playtesters and points for AoS. I think GW has done a phenomenal job adapting to issues, involving the community, shifting the meta and keeping the game fresh. The complaints I read about on this forum I only see on this forum. There was no horde rampage at the GT finals last weekend. The winning list was mixed order, with aelves and skinks. The second place was Ironjawz. Kharadron came top 10. Death skeleton hordes did not run anyone over (in fact, Death is obviously something GW needs to address).

The podcasters and community members, many more than just the SCGT guys, getting involved has been awesome by GW and awesome for the game. In a large sense, GW has merged with the community to bring the best of both worlds. I'd just like to counter the derision of the much larger community than this forum, including the SCGT guys, that is actively involved in development of the game.

Not just the points and playtesting but the pure entertainment guys like Dan Heelan -- who co-hosted the GT finals on the stream all last weekend and did a great job -- bring should be appreciated. The SCGT team, podcasters, community members like Tyler Mengel, Tyler Emerson, Garagehammer, etc. are THE community backbone of AoS and a massive part of the reason the game survived the early days and has become what it is now.

All opinions and feedback are good and worthy though, nothing wrong with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 02:59:37


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Edit: Nevermind, discussion was veering off-topic. I will let the results of the coming year speak for themselves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 04:54:01


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




There are numerous threads from people annoyed with the bad balance pretty much everywhere on fb and even on the TGA forum (the honeymoon is over thread).

Most people are content so long as they have an official system. People are also used to point-skew since point-skew has been a thing with GW games since the beginning spanning back before many people on this board were even born.

I have nothing against the podcasters and the announcers and all of the people that put in their time. I do however find the development and the point values to be extremely flawed and one of the biggest reasons that the game is practically dead for hundreds of miles around me.

Thats great that over in the UK they have a very popular grand tournament series and all of the UK people are over there making it a lot of fun. That doesn't do much for the folks over here in North America though. I'm sure there are pockets of excitement here, but its very hard to find them, which sucks. There are a handful of events that have a decent draw but the fact that if I want a decent game of AOS I have to drive several hours and then its going to be a tournament game on top of that is very limiting for me.

Thats also great that the GT finals had such a varied mix of lists. You know why horde armies haven't done as well? Not because their rules aren't that good... because people don't want to buy all those models and paint them. The very same issue that drove away players in WHFB 8th. Why were death hordes not doing well in the GT finals? Because no one took them. Its hard to do well at a tournament if no one wants to take them. Because no one wants to collect and paint old skeleton models. Drop a deathrattle book with new skeleton models with the exact same rules and I guarantee you'll get a different result.

That also doesn't address the main issue of non-tournament games. If you love tournaments this won't matter to you, but if you don't love tournaments and want more casual games then you are going to have a problem because if you aren't building a tournament power list yourself you're going to get rolled.

We can say that this is a problem in all games, and to an extent there is truth in that but in all the games that I play or have played, this problem is only really really bad in the GW universe.

I just rocked up a battletech game over the weekend for a local campaign and haven't played in a while and just pick mechs I like the look of. I went up against one of the optimizers in that group and I did lose, but I did a heavy repair bill to my opponent and was in the game the whole time.

You couldn't do that in AOS. Largely because of the point system and its skew.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 11:59:51


 
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





Hm, since I'm not a fan of points play and generally don't follow the GHB and the proverbial "horde" changes, so I don't know if my comment would be adequate, but here's a list from the TGA forum that allegedly placed third and fields 120 bloodletters:
BloodThrone
Bloodsecrator (Chaos Talisman)
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (MOK, General, Cunning Deceiver, Beguiling Gem)
4x5 fleshhounds
4x30 Bloodletters
Murderhost

It obviously ultra buffs the bloodletters. If I understand correctly maxed infantry units are now cheaper so this bloodletter list is pointwise cheaper by approximately 240 points according to scrollbuilder (which would be almost another full unit of bloodletters). I still haven't found the lists from the GT so this is taken out of context - a horde army placing 3rd . I can't help but see the obvious trend of competitive people starting to play this kind of lists as more and more players start buffing their units for more free models.
P.S. I honestly have no idea if this is a list from the GT that everyone is discussing these days, but it was posted in the appropriate thread without any other context so I assume it must be the thing...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 05:28:34


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




That makes use of the "bloodletter bomb" which has been a build at tournaments for the past year or so.
   
 
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