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I was just about to convert two Plague Marines into having plasma pistols based on the Index entries for Plague Marines. I got the Codex today, and now that option (except for the Champion) is missing!

Three questions:

1) Why did GW make this change?

2) Anything else like this in the new Codex (or any other) that reduces the options from the Index entries for an army?

3) In a tournament, can I use the Index list instead of the Codex list?

Thanks - Mez

1) Because you'd have to convert it, and GW's latest strategy is "If it isn't in the kit it doesn't get rules". (Ask the Deathwatch players why their characters can't ride bikes.)

2) I know the bike Company Veterans didn't make it into the Marine book so you're still using the Index entry if you want to use them, but no others off the top of my head.

3) You can only use the Index entry if there isn't a Codex entry that supersedes it. Most recent rules only. I'd have been using the 3e Hereticus book all the way through into 7th if I could, and I would never have updated from the 5e GK book, but you can't. Sorry.

1) Whom knows, it is Game Workshop... not like this is a Model that was discontinued, and no errata exists to remove it from the Index if it was a mistake all along.
2) Quite a few, and likely more and more as additional Codex are released... this is how we are told to handle the situation:-
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
- Codexes: Your Questions Answered

While the Answer does states 'if you have these older Models,' it really is going tell you the quality of your opponent if they demand a receipt to prove this 'Legacy Model' was purchased between Index and Codex to make use of this Answer.

3) As always with 'what would tournaments think of X' questions: You have to ask them, nothing we say here is going to matter.

Well, I'd be fine with you using the index entry, but only for open+narrative play. Otherwise I'd probably say no.

Loads of options are missing in the new DG codex. No palanquins (though there's still the index option for that), no combo weapons on the champions (same goes for normal CSM, so GW are selling an illegally equipped model still), no power/chainfists for termies.

People took Plasma Pistol Plague Marines?

Considering you actually shoot your pistols in close-combat I can see why you'd take a plasma pistol.

Convert them.
House rule the weapons or use the index entry.
Play 'counts as' pistols for tournaments.
If the TOs don't allow it, either bust them off and change them out, or don't play that tournament.
GW is gonna marginalize itself as we start ignoring their idiot "rules".
The 41st Age is coming.

The answer to your 3 question has been answered in a FAQ for GW about Dreadnoughts with double assault cannons.
If the option for that equipement is in the index, you can use it, but you need to use the more "to date" point costs for that equipement, so you need to use Codex options for the Plasma Pistol.

 Galas wrote:
The answer to your 3 question has been answered in a FAQ for GW about Dreadnoughts with double assault cannons.
If the option for that equipement is in the index, you can use it, but you need to use the more "to date" point costs for that equipement, so you need to use Codex options for the Plasma Pistol.

Do you have a link to that FAQ? I have heard this from a few people, but I have been unable to find it myself. Thank you!

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The answer to your 3 question has been answered in a FAQ for GW about Dreadnoughts with double assault cannons.
If the option for that equipement is in the index, you can use it, but you need to use the more "to date" point costs for that equipement, so you need to use Codex options for the Plasma Pistol.

Do you have a link to that FAQ? I have heard this from a few people, but I have been unable to find it myself. Thank you!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

More specifically this paragraph:

Q: There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
A: While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

I highly recommend bookmarking this:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736188.page#9550607

Thanks again Ghaz.

Same thing happened to Autocannon+Lascannon dreads. No longer legal despite being in the index due to being superseded by the codex.

It sucks because GW screwed you over, but your best bet is to just say "these are fancy bolt pistols".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It sucks because GW screwed you over, but your best bet is to just say "these are fancy bolt pistols".

Can't even do that sadly, Plague Marines can't take bolt pistols

I still can't see how that conclusion is drawn when this Answer exists:
Q: There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
A: While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

This question was very specific about options within the Index that had vanished from the Codex, informing us the context is changes between these two books. The answer highlights that the Authors acknowledge these changes also include which weapons might be available to the Model. It then goes on to state that people can field these "Legacy Models" using the Datasheet from the Index, though they should use the most recent points published for that Model and Weapons. Given that the Authors had ample chance to answer along the lines of 'you can not field these Models,' and instead gave us a long and complicated answer to the opposite....

Why are you denying an Opponent the ability to field a Dreadnaught they built when Autocannons and Lascannons where a legal combination of wargear?
They are often penalized for having to use an Index Datasheet for this "Legacy Model" as it is!

Plague Marines don't have Bolt Pistols in the index.

Also if you wanted to use the index datasheet for plasma pistols, you'll lose out on all the other gear that Plague Marines gained in the CSM/DG Codex. Very much not worth it to gain two plasma pistols. I would much rather have Bubotic Axes, Plague Spewers and all the other new goodies they got in return.

Out of curiosity I thought I would outline the penalty for using the Index Datasheet but the changes are so great I would be simply printing both Datasheets side by side at this point!

Seriously;
8 Options in the Codex, only 4 in the Index
Quite a long list of wargear unique to Codex: Death Guard's Plague Marines
4 Abilities in the Codex, 2 which they share with the Index and 2 additional and more powerful abilities unique to the Codex

Giving up all that just to get 2 Plasma Pistols... let them field those Legacy Plague Marines if they really want to.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Out of curiosity I thought I would outline the penalty for using the Index Datasheet but the changes are so great I would be simply printing both Datasheets side by side at this point!

Seriously;
8 Options in the Codex, only 4 in the Index
Quite a long list of wargear unique to Codex: Death Guard's Plague Marines
4 Abilities in the Codex, 2 which they share with the Index and 2 additional and more powerful abilities unique to the Codex

Giving up all that just to get 2 Plasma Pistols... let them field those Legacy Plague Marines if they really want to.

Um, what 4 abilities are those? Icons of Despair are not new and the rules have simply been moved to the entry rather than a common boxout at the beginning of the index and Vectors of Death... is simply stating they get +1 attack for 2 CCW, like several other entries in other indexes.

Using "legacy" PM's also give you access to combi-weapons and power axes on champions again.

Ruin wrote:

 JinxDragon wrote:
Out of curiosity I thought I would outline the penalty for using the Index Datasheet but the changes are so great I would be simply printing both Datasheets side by side at this point!

Seriously;
8 Options in the Codex, only 4 in the Index
Quite a long list of wargear unique to Codex: Death Guard's Plague Marines
4 Abilities in the Codex, 2 which they share with the Index and 2 additional and more powerful abilities unique to the Codex

Giving up all that just to get 2 Plasma Pistols... let them field those Legacy Plague Marines if they really want to.

Um, what 4 abilities are those? Icons of Despair are not new and the rules have simply been moved to the entry rather than a common boxout at the beginning of the index and Vectors of Death... is simply stating they get +1 attack for 2 CCW, like several other entries in other indexes.

Using "legacy" PM's also give you access to combi-weapons and power axes on champions again.

Only the champion could take a combi weapon in the index - and with Inexorable Advance the champion should be taking a plasma gun regardless which he can do without being forced taking a power fist. You lose an entire page worth of weapons - ranged and melee. If you wanted to trade all that in for a power axe (which is a lesser version of a Bubotic Axe which an entire unit of DG codex Plague Marines can take btw) and a few plasma pistols I'd gladly let you. You'd also lose Vectors of Death and Disease which doubles the attack output on your unit equipped with melee weapons. A large unit all equipped with Maces of Contagion and Bubotic Axes with a couple blight launchers advancing into assault range is brutal.

Yeah, those two plasma pistols and power axe is suddenly not looking so good. But by all means, go ahead!

That looks like a plasma pistol to me.

GW may have messed up...

Looks like the Champion model to me.

@NurglesROT- the entire unit cannot take Bubotic Axes, the champion is still only stuck with a PF or Plague Sword for a CCW.

Ruin wrote:
Looks like the Champion model to me.

@NurglesROT- the entire unit cannot take Bubotic Axes, the champion is still only stuck with a PF or Plague Sword for a CCW.

Yes, they can. 5th dot point - "Any Plague Marine can replace their bolter with a either a bubotic axe or second plague knife"

I agree the Champion options are bit anaemic, but considering the rest of the loud out for the unit with axes and then a couple maces and flails, the champion brings some needed high strength attacks with the powerfist - he doesn't need anything else.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Ruin wrote:
Looks like the Champion model to me.

@NurglesROT- the entire unit cannot take Bubotic Axes, the champion is still only stuck with a PF or Plague Sword for a CCW.

Yes, they can. 5th dot point - "Any Plague Marine can replace their bolter with a either a bubotic axe or second plague knife"

A Plague Champion is not a Plague Marine. It's literally there in the name. Compare it to the Blightlord Termies- where it simply says "any model" for upgrading to combi-weapons.

Using your logic I could equip the Champion with a Blight Launcher or a Meltagun. As he is one of "up to two Plague Marines"...

did you read the rest of my post? I know the Champion can not take bubotic axes.

We're saying the same thing. You said an entire unit can't take axes, I proved you incorrect.

I then agreed with you that champions can only take a power fist which is annoying but considering the rest of the load out for the unit he doesn't need anything else.

Stop moving the goal posts and arguing for the sake of being difficult

Ruin,
Fair enough on the oversight - 3 Abilities in the Index, 4 in the Codex.

To be honest, I didn't even know this was an option before. Back in pre-8th edition, Plasma Pistols were overcosted for what they did. And the time they still remained an option in 8th is so brief (roughly 2 months?) that I didn't even bother looking it up.

Plasma pistols were an alternative option to plasma guns as you could still get a few plasma shots off and charge, whereas with the plasma guns rapid fire rule you couldn't charge.

8th allows you to charge now anyway, and with the Inexorable Advance rule you can double tap at 18" so why would you ever consider plasma pistols over a plasma gun this edition.

You could argue that with plasma pistols you could get a shot off each turn whilst locked in combat, but in my experiences combats in 8th rarely go past 1 or 2 turns either way. Plague Marines simply don't need pistols when you consider the rest of the load out they got in return.

In theory in pre-8th edition the Plasma Pistol was the assault variant of the Plasma Gun.

In practice....not so much, and it's because the Melta Gun existed; for 33% less points you got a gun that had +1 strength and didn't hamper your assault ability (you still had a Bolt Pistol and Plague Knife for that +1 attack).

8th edition actually gave some tangential use for it, but then the CSM Codex dropped and everyone realized triple-plasma guns were a thing in min-size squads. The DG codex adding Inexorable Advance was the final nail in the coffin since it made Plasma Guns infinitely better for the points you paid.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
1) Because you'd have to convert it, and GW's latest strategy is "If it isn't in the kit it doesn't get rules". (Ask the Deathwatch players why their characters can't ride bikes.)

2) I know the bike Company Veterans didn't make it into the Marine book so you're still using the Index entry if you want to use them, but no others off the top of my head.

3) You can only use the Index entry if there isn't a Codex entry that supersedes it. Most recent rules only. I'd have been using the 3e Hereticus book all the way through into 7th if I could, and I would never have updated from the 5e GK book, but you can't. Sorry.

Yeah, Marines lost a lot of the ease conversions/Forge world kit options

Librarian, Chaplain, Ancient, Apothecary, Company Champion and Company Veterans on Bikes
LandSpeed storms lost 3 of the 4 weapon options
Land Speeders lost 1 Gunner options and 2 Hull options
Dreadnoughts lost 3 Arm options (well 2, autocannons on each arm)
Razorback lost a turret option (but some how kept assault cannons)
And Honour Guard lost the option to have anything other then Power Axes.

So far the only book with room for conversions is the Grey Knights so I'd probably look at any outstanding Index entries, and if the kit doesn't have it at the moment, don't convert it until the codex is out.

ScarVet101 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
1) Because you'd have to convert it, and GW's latest strategy is "If it isn't in the kit it doesn't get rules". (Ask the Deathwatch players why their characters can't ride bikes.)

2) I know the bike Company Veterans didn't make it into the Marine book so you're still using the Index entry if you want to use them, but no others off the top of my head.

3) You can only use the Index entry if there isn't a Codex entry that supersedes it. Most recent rules only. I'd have been using the 3e Hereticus book all the way through into 7th if I could, and I would never have updated from the 5e GK book, but you can't. Sorry.

So far the only book with room for conversions is the Grey Knights so I'd probably look at any outstanding Index entries, and if the kit doesn't have it at the moment, don't convert it until the codex is out.

I'd even go as far and say not to buy anything until the codex is released if anyone is concerned about their unit options being changed/invalidated. Wait until the codex is out and then plan your load outs around that.