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Hey guys,

Does anyone know if a Space Marine Chapter has been revived? For example - A scenario that popped to mind was that a Loyalist Chapter was wiped out and their Fortress Monastery in their homeworld fell into disuse as a result before the Chapter's Gene-Seed was used to effectively recreate the Chapter in a subsequent Founding.

Thoughts?

Cheers

I imagine the Celestial Lions have been supplemented by some Primaris Marines, and the Astral Knights may have been rebuilt too. The Scythes of the Emperor have been near-destroyed twice, so Primaris reinforcement is a good call too.

Didn't that basically happen to Imperial Fists sometime shortly after HH?

 ulgurstasta wrote:
Didn't that basically happen to Imperial Fists sometime shortly after HH?

Yeah, it's part of the "War Of The Beast" storyline, then they end up being reconstituted from their successor chapters

I have not seen examples of this in the fluff, but have seen many examples of gene-seed strains being discontinued for performance reasons. The Inquisition would probably be involved if this happened, and they are not known for fair-handed judgement.

Sadly, I think a Chapter that is wiped out would be left that way.

The rulebook fluff mentions it, but we haven't seen a real example of it beyond the Imperial Fists. I'm not certain what the value would be - why carry all the baggage of a failed chapter when you could just spin the Imperial Wheel of Mascots, pair it with whatever color the administratium has at the moment, and form a new chapter.

Blood Angels were rebuilt at one point, likely from their Successors after they were reduced to a hand full of Marines. It theorized that after the First Tyrannic War, the Ultramarines drew Marines from a Successor.

Crimson Fists, Scythes of the Emperor and likely many of the Chapters at Baal were rebuilt with Primaris.

Pre-Primaris the Imperium seemingly favoured replacement: In the 5th edition codex the Sable Swords chapter was created to replace the Astral Knights, whilst the old first edition fluff had the Mentors reusing the chapter number and uniform of the failed Star Scorpions chapter.

I think alot of it depends on the nature of the chapter's destruction.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Blood Angels were rebuilt at one point, likely from their Successors

Didn't BA just took not yet implanted aspirants of Successors?

At least in some BL book ('Red Fury"?) iirc BA CM asked that from successors...

chyron wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Blood Angels were rebuilt at one point, likely from their Successors

Didn't BA just took not yet implanted aspirants of Successors?

At least in some BL book ('Red Fury"?) iirc BA CM asked that from successors...

Taking their aspirants doesnt preclude being rebuilt from their Successors. Also seems like there was at least two different times this happened. Once because of a Space Hulk and the other time because the Black Legion almost destroyed them.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The rulebook fluff mentions it, but we haven't seen a real example of it beyond the Imperial Fists. I'm not certain what the value would be - why carry all the baggage of a failed chapter when you could just spin the Imperial Wheel of Mascots, pair it with whatever color the administratium has at the moment, and form a new chapter.

Because some famous Chapters are too big symbols to let fall. Kind of how Rome dealt with Legions IIRC - a good famous one getting wiped out (or close to) was rebuilt with the same number and name, one going traitor or getting destroyed in a particularly humiliating way might be left dead. Those Chapters carrying the name of an original Legion - or their famous successors from the Chapter reorganisation - would probably be rebuilt no matter the cost as long as they weren't killed while chanting Chaos hymns and wearing Chaos symbols on their armor.

Because of the timeline of events, would the Lamenters chapter be rebuilt using Primaris marines or are they still on the bad and wrong list from the fallout of the Badab war and subsequent penitent crusade, what was left of them, are on?

 Zakiriel wrote:
Because of the timeline of events, would the Lamenters chapter be rebuilt using Primaris marines or are they still on the bad and wrong list from the fallout of the Badab war and subsequent penitent crusade, what was left of them, are on?

Since Gulliman doesn't have a horse in the race about the badab war and cawl doesn't care, I don't see why not. Gulliman seems pretty willing to forgive whatever happened while he was gone so long as it wasn't outright supporting his traitor brother primarchs.

My understanding is that Dark Imperium novel gives 'now' as 115 years after the destruction of Cadia. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners only had 13 years left of their penitent crusade at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade.

I'd argue that if Guilliman *did* distrust them, the likely outcome is that he would force them to accept Primaris reinforcements that were loyal to him.

That is an interesting statement, in that the Primaris Marines are loyal to Guilliman personally.
But I do also feel you are right about the Primaris being offered to them as reinforcements since the most current military situation requires every unit available to fight.

Spetulhu wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The rulebook fluff mentions it, but we haven't seen a real example of it beyond the Imperial Fists. I'm not certain what the value would be - why carry all the baggage of a failed chapter when you could just spin the Imperial Wheel of Mascots, pair it with whatever color the administratium has at the moment, and form a new chapter.

Because some famous Chapters are too big symbols to let fall. Kind of how Rome dealt with Legions IIRC - a good famous one getting wiped out (or close to) was rebuilt with the same number and name, one going traitor or getting destroyed in a particularly humiliating way might be left dead. Those Chapters carrying the name of an original Legion - or their famous successors from the Chapter reorganisation - would probably be rebuilt no matter the cost as long as they weren't killed while chanting Chaos hymns and wearing Chaos symbols on their armor.

Pretty much this. If a Chapter is historically or culturally significant to the wider Imperium, then chances are good the HLoT will be wanting to resurrect it. Never underestimate the power of symbols. A Chapter that has a long and glorious history behind its name is much more valuable than a completely new one.

Exactly. Chapters are like sports teams. Sometimes you lose the whole team at once, but you keep the symbols and history and start over with new players. But its still the same team, since the entire concept of a team is metaphorical anyway.

... and now I have to make the Mighty Ducks chapter. Thanks Argonak.

 Gashrog wrote:
My understanding is that Dark Imperium novel gives 'now' as 115 years after the destruction of Cadia. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners only had 13 years left of their penitent crusade at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade.

I'd argue that if Guilliman *did* distrust them, the likely outcome is that he would force them to accept Primaris reinforcements that were loyal to him.

I really like to imagine that Gulliman looked at the whole Badab war, what led up to it and drove the Astral Claws over the edge and just lost his gak at how fethed up the IoM is.

Like a good solid 15 min rant with his trusted captains just standing there like "Oh gak...what do we do? Do we comfort him? Do we agree? Do we leave?"

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The rulebook fluff mentions it, but we haven't seen a real example of it beyond the Imperial Fists. I'm not certain what the value would be - why carry all the baggage of a failed chapter when you could just spin the Imperial Wheel of Mascots, pair it with whatever color the administratium has at the moment, and form a new chapter.

Because some famous Chapters are too big symbols to let fall. Kind of how Rome dealt with Legions IIRC - a good famous one getting wiped out (or close to) was rebuilt with the same number and name, one going traitor or getting destroyed in a particularly humiliating way might be left dead. Those Chapters carrying the name of an original Legion - or their famous successors from the Chapter reorganisation - would probably be rebuilt no matter the cost as long as they weren't killed while chanting Chaos hymns and wearing Chaos symbols on their armor.

Pretty much this. If a Chapter is historically or culturally significant to the wider Imperium, then chances are good the HLoT will be wanting to resurrect it. Never underestimate the power of symbols. A Chapter that has a long and glorious history behind its name is much more valuable than a completely new one.

And the main rebuild examples all stem from famous first and second founding chapters. Both have very long and ancient histories.

Post Di they are reinforcing everyone with new marines to brace for the coming storm and also to reclaim lost worlds.

 Zakiriel wrote:
That is an interesting statement, in that the Primaris Marines are loyal to Guilliman personally.
But I do also feel you are right about the Primaris being offered to them as reinforcements since the most current military situation requires every unit available to fight.

Primaris Marines are also made up of individuals closer to the time of the Heresy so could also likely help guide divergant chapters closer to their original teachings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
My understanding is that Dark Imperium novel gives 'now' as 115 years after the destruction of Cadia. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners only had 13 years left of their penitent crusade at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade.

I'd argue that if Guilliman *did* distrust them, the likely outcome is that he would force them to accept Primaris reinforcements that were loyal to him.

I really like to imagine that Gulliman looked at the whole Badab war, what led up to it and drove the Astral Claws over the edge and just lost his gak at how fethed up the IoM is.

Like a good solid 15 min rant with his trusted captains just standing there like "Oh gak...what do we do? Do we comfort him? Do we agree? Do we leave?"

I doubt it, he proably looked at the Badb war and said "THANK GOD I BROKE THE LEGIONS UP"

BUT ROBOUTE BREAKING THE LEGIONS IS STUPID BECAUSE I HATE ULTRAMARINES

How are Primaris Marines from people closer to the Heresy?

pm713 wrote:
How are Primaris Marines from people closer to the Heresy?

IIRC (from what people have discussed about the story here on the forum) the first batch was already made and stored in stasis when Guilliman was wounded, so they're pretty old.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
My understanding is that Dark Imperium novel gives 'now' as 115 years after the destruction of Cadia. The Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners only had 13 years left of their penitent crusade at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade.

I'd argue that if Guilliman *did* distrust them, the likely outcome is that he would force them to accept Primaris reinforcements that were loyal to him.

I really like to imagine that Gulliman looked at the whole Badab war, what led up to it and drove the Astral Claws over the edge and just lost his gak at how fethed up the IoM is.

Like a good solid 15 min rant with his trusted captains just standing there like "Oh gak...what do we do? Do we comfort him? Do we agree? Do we leave?"

I smell a "Guilliman discovers the state of the IoM in the 41st Millennium Downfall parody"!

Spetulhu wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How are Primaris Marines from people closer to the Heresy?

IIRC (from what people have discussed about the story here on the forum) the first batch was already made and stored in stasis when Guilliman was wounded, so they're pretty old.

Woooooow

pm713 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How are Primaris Marines from people closer to the Heresy?

IIRC (from what people have discussed about the story here on the forum) the first batch was already made and stored in stasis when Guilliman was wounded, so they're pretty old.

Woooooow

It's kinda cool though because Cawl does what he feel likes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How are Primaris Marines from people closer to the Heresy?

IIRC (from what people have discussed about the story here on the forum) the first batch was already made and stored in stasis when Guilliman was wounded, so they're pretty old.

Woooooow

It's kinda cool though because Cawl does what he feel likes.

Kinda dumb and counter to the story too.

 Zakiriel wrote:
Because of the timeline of events, would the Lamenters chapter be rebuilt using Primaris marines or are they still on the bad and wrong list from the fallout of the Badab war and subsequent penitent crusade, what was left of them, are on?

I actually play an all Primaris Lamenters army, my fluff for them is that when Guilliman was researching what he had missed in his millennia in stasis he came across the Badab War and learned the fate of the Lamenters, then deemed them worthy to serve the Imperium again.