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Longtime Dakkanaut





Question is pretty much the title. Is it possible for a genestealer cult to reach the point where it realizes it is just going to be eaten and decides to abandon the great plan, kill the actual genestealers and make their own way in the universe? This came up in conversation with my friend and the idea intrigues me, but with my limited knowledge on the topic I was pretty sure that all the cult members are genetically brainwashed to serve the Hive Mind and make way for the Tyranid fleet. The idea sounds kinda cool, but I feel it would require way too much special snowflake treatment to work and at that point its just silly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/04 03:59:52


 
   
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The Conquerer






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No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.

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Maybe if the Genestealer strain that infected them mutated to the point where they don't respond to the Hive Mind's signals anymore. But the odds of that are slim to none.

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Given that all mutations are 100% controlled by the Hive Mind, it's impossible.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that all mutations are 100% controlled by the Hive Mind, it's impossible.


Not true

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ymgarl_Genestealer

Unlike any other Tyranid creature, the Ymgarl Genestealers are outcasts. The Hive Mind has no wish to reabsorb their genetic material in fear that the uncontrollable genetic instabilities that allow the Ymgarl Genestealers their formidable flesh-shaping abilities might contaminate the Tyranid gene-pool.

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 Pete Melvin wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that all mutations are 100% controlled by the Hive Mind, it's impossible.


Not true

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ymgarl_Genestealer

Unlike any other Tyranid creature, the Ymgarl Genestealers are outcasts. The Hive Mind has no wish to reabsorb their genetic material in fear that the uncontrollable genetic instabilities that allow the Ymgarl Genestealers their formidable flesh-shaping abilities might contaminate the Tyranid gene-pool.


To be fair, we don't know WHY the nids do that. The IOM assumes they are outcasts because thats what it looks like and all the fluff we have on nids is from other peoples perceptions of them. But it's ALL speculation.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Grey Templar wrote:
No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.


Do they become directly controlled? Do you know where i can find that in the fluff/have a source?

Not that i disbelieve you or anything, but i had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to aattract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult

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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

As others have said, there is no clear example of this in the story. However, I can see a being with an intimate knowledge of Tyranid biology being able to disrupt the Cults instinctive behaviour and bend it to their own ends.
Whether they are a radical Magos Biologis, an Inquisitor or even a Zoat is up to you!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 10:07:29


 
   
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Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

In short, no they are working to a Genetic Imperitive.

It's also worth mentioning that the Cult generally doesn't know about Nids specifically or that their very existence is a beacon to the Hive Fleets. The Genestealers themselves are probably the only ones in the Cult that knows what will happen when the Hive Fleets arrive, the rest certainly have no idea.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's not known how much independence there is within the Swarm. There are clearly elements that show that its possibly not a totally unified force; such as Hive Fleets fighting each other - although its been argued that it might be large scale weapon testing.

You also get things like the Swarmlord, which is clearly a unique intelligence within the Swarm itself.

It's even suggested that Catachan Devils are ancient strains of exploratory Tyranids gone feral.

So when it comes to the Cults almost anything could be possible. It might also depend on how infested the cult is, and how deep the infestation runs. I could well imagine a cult fracturing with its own power struggles within; or the lower levels breaking away when Tyranids arrive (its one thing to be a member of a doom cult; its quite another when the doom arrives!)

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 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to attract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult


Why would the leader do that?
If he learned that creating a cult would eventually summon a swarm of unstoppable monsters, and he doesn't want to be consumed by said swarm, what is his motivation for creating more cults?
If he's on the run, creating a cult will place him in more danger from Nids and the Imperium, not less.
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just hide out on some backwater world and hope he's never found?

Not meaning to dismiss your idea, I just don't quite follow the logic . . .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 12:31:52


 
   
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Well if he was part of a cult his DNA will be fatally contaminated, maybe he is raising these new cults by accident?
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No, it is genetically determined. Maybe with advanced genetic manipulation they could become independent, but why would they want that? They want to be devoured by the Tyranid swarms. It is how they can ascend and become one with their god.

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I think the only way for them to become "independent" is if the world they infest is so incredibly remote that neither Imperial forces nor a Hive Fleet would happen to discover them.
With the nature of how GSCs create a beacon for the Hive Fleets, this could only happen if there was serious resistance between the GSC and the approach of any Hive Fleets. Possibly some heavily fortified sector of imperial space?

Another issue with that is that the longer the GSC exist, the stronger its "beacon" becomes and thus the more ferocious any Hive fleet advance would be to reach it.
Eventually these advances would cause Imperials to ask why the Hive Fleets were attacking that particular sector, and would eventually find and destroy the GSC.

But if they were to somehow remain undiscovered by Imperials AND the Hive Fleet advance was prevented from reaching them, I could see several generations causing some form of mutation that the Hive Mind had no control over that leads to the formation of a second Hive mind that is divorced of the main Hive mind and mixed with human DNA.

Maybe the desire to be one with their god and the centuries of this not happening causes them to reach out to other gods....like Chaos. Chaos, after all, is all about mutation and it would not be difficult to use the human psychic part of the cult to blot out the connection to the Hive.
Thus you end up with a human world of alien monsters that worships Chaos.

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Yup. One Genestealer Cult becomes servants of Nurgle.
   
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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Question is pretty much the title. Is it possible for a genestealer cult to reach the point where it realizes it is just going to be eaten and decides to abandon the great plan, kill the actual genestealers and make their own way in the universe?


The leader of a Genestealer Cult is always the Patriarch, who is a Genestealer. So no, no Genestealer Cult is killing the Genestealers because their mind controlling leader who they are genetically programmed to serve is a Genestealer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 15:06:37


 
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Not all cultists are 100% controlled by the Tyranid Hive Mind. In the Genestealer Cultists explain how only the most "tyranid" cultitists, initiates, etc... are really directly mind controlled. The rest of the cult is mentally bounded to the Patriarch, being loyal to him, but they are still individuals.

In the Codex it explains how after the planetary defenses have been destroyed, the Hive Fleet starts to devour the cultists. And the cultists don't just allow them to be devoured, the mayority run for their lives or try to fight back once they realised what the "ascendence" promise means.

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unless its been retconned, yes, there are chaos genestealer cults, if its been retconned, then I doubt they can go independent
   
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The lore page for GSC in their index mentions that when the Hive Fleet comes a knockin', the Patriarch's curse is essentially lifted over the non-Genestealer cultists. Some still welcome the 'Nids with open arms, some have a dawning moment of realization and attempt to resist the inevitable. I'd imagine if a cult was so large that it easily held the entire planet by the time the Hive Fleet arrives and the large majority of them choose to fight back, it might be possible to to see a large scale conflict with the Tyranids.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 16:53:26


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Here's a thought. What if a GS cult infects a bunch of Chaos Cultists? Or if a group of Chaos Cultists puts daemons inside GS cultists? The Chaos Gods wouldn't exactly be too thrilled with somebody else trying to pull the strings of their puppets. Given their ability to induce mutation, it is not outside of the realm of possibility that they could alter a cultist's DNA to make it invulnerable to the Hive Mind.


 
   
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 Denny wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to attract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult


Why would the leader do that?
If he learned that creating a cult would eventually summon a swarm of unstoppable monsters, and he doesn't want to be consumed by said swarm, what is his motivation for creating more cults?
If he's on the run, creating a cult will place him in more danger from Nids and the Imperium, not less.
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just hide out on some backwater world and hope he's never found?

Not meaning to dismiss your idea, I just don't quite follow the logic . . .


There isn't much logic to follow, but that is unfortunately the fault of GW's retcons.

They wanted to keep genestealers in the game, so they stuffed them into the 'nids. Unfortunately that severely limited the stories they can tell with them. Now that Cults are back, it's easy to see where the problems with that hamfisted decision are.

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According to Index: Xenos 2, there is a brief moment fo independence after the prime genestealer is subsumed and everyone else gets a nice long moment to scream before being eaten.

I thought it was an interesting idea, brief moments in which the cult goes oh crap before meeting their end.

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Norn Queen






You basically have 2 kinds of cultists.

Ones who are hypnotized and enthralled that way.

Ones who are genetic offspring.

The hypnotized do not fall under the sway of the hive mind,

The ones who have nid genetics do and don't have any choice in the matter.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
unless its been retconned, yes, there are chaos genestealer cults, if its been retconned, then I doubt they can go independent

If I recall correctly a recent codex mentioned that Genestealers on a Space Hulk were trapped in the Warp and when they emerged they had been corrupted by Nurgle. It came across like it was an unwilling conversion but at least it's possible.
Voss wrote:They wanted to keep genestealers in the game, so they stuffed them into the 'nids. Unfortunately that severely limited the stories they can tell with them. Now that Cults are back, it's easy to see where the problems with that hamfisted decision are.

They were so much cooler before they were put into the Tyranids.
   
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If the Hive Fleet is still a distance away, a powerful psyker can influence a Cult - read 'Elucidium' for an example.
   
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What happens is the original Patriarch dies? Does another purestrain Genestealer take his place?

   
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 Denny wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to attract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult


Why would the leader do that?
If he learned that creating a cult would eventually summon a swarm of unstoppable monsters, and he doesn't want to be consumed by said swarm, what is his motivation for creating more cults?
If he's on the run, creating a cult will place him in more danger from Nids and the Imperium, not less.
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just hide out on some backwater world and hope he's never found?

Not meaning to dismiss your idea, I just don't quite follow the logic . . .


Hmmm, you're right. Perhaps he doesn't quite understand the connection yet. Nah, that's not good enough.

Lets say simple survival of his progeny. Like everything else in the galaxy, he just wants his own to survive. So, he founds cults and scattera as much of his progeny as he can before the hives arrive.

What i was thinking is that even without the 'nids coming GS Cults are their own bonafide species, like people-cuckoos. Perfectpy able to survive without the hive mind. Perhaps that's this guy's endgame...

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Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
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 Galef wrote:
What happens is the original Patriarch dies? Does another purestrain Genestealer take his place?

Yes.
   
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In the lore that I know the ork genestealer cults often fight back with orks and the normal human genestealers think that they will work with the tyranids until the very end. Then the tyranids start eating them and the illusion is broken.
   
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 Galef wrote:
What happens is the original Patriarch dies? Does another purestrain Genestealer take his place?

IIRC according to the Comissar Cain books it takes three generations of human cultists to breed genestealers. Once the original generation recieve the "genestealer kiss" it messes up their brains and DNA. It's common for the memory of recieveving the infection to be removed from the target, making them a form of "sleeper agents". Their kids would be horribly missformed mutants though. Hence if the original Patriarch dies worst case scenario the cult will have to wait for three generations for one of their grandkids to take up the mantle. They're genetically manipulated to love their hideous offspring too.

As for the original question, barring a very radical Inquisitor doing genetic manipulations on an already existing cult or massive "natural" underhive mutations (from pollution and radiation) or possibly chaos influence messing with the Tyranid brainwashing then I don't think it's possible. Even if you remove the Patriarch the cultists are hard wired to mate and make new 'nids.

On a side note I want to see Tau genestealer cults

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 06:03:24


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