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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Let's list off some questions now that we have the "full picture".

Are we now allowed to wonder why the shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable? What about conscripts still being absurdly hard to kill in a single turn without spending 3-4 times as much on a glass cannon counter unit? Or should we "wait for the meta to settle"

Please, could some guard players explain to me how a sturdy tank that's very hard to kill should have the firepower to easily make its points back, yet we need glass cannon units to have that same sort of point efficiency versus conscripts, I'm curious.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 21:41:30


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

This is a little inflamatory SilverAlien. You can do much better. And I'm saying this in a non-sarcastic way.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 22:06:54


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
This is a little inflamatory SilverAlien. You can do much better. And I'm saying this in a non-sarcastic way.

You know what though? Alien is right. We basically had all the leaks and previews available to us and we were still being told that we don't have the full picture. This was a justification.

Now let's see their defense.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I played my first game post AdMech codex against a Guard list with 8 Leman Russes, including Pask and another Tank Commander.

My poor TAC list, made with almost every model I own, shattered to pieces with only two Russes shot down...

I'd like to have T8 in my army too :/

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Galas wrote:
This is a little inflamatory SilverAlien. You can do much better. And I'm saying this in a non-sarcastic way.


I mean they keep calling him a heckler. But he isn't wrong. Guard had everything they possibly needed to win in the Index; then they got more.

Hilariously they keep saying "conscripts got nerfed be quiet!" when the key issue with conscripts remain. Oh and conscripts have been buffed really, regiments made them better than before.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I'm not discussing that, I have always said that in the IG codex Conscripts are actually more powerfull, I think the only unit that has come less powerfull where Scions.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Galas wrote:
I'm not discussing that, I have always said that in the IG codex Conscripts are actually more powerfull, I think the only unit that has come less powerfull where Scions.


I think Scions are still great, even though the plasma dropsquad costs 24 more points, they received plenty of point reductions elsewhere to make up for it. Also extra hits on 6's now, so any IG player using searchlights now gets an extra shot on a 5+ while not being able to overheat in supercharged mode. It's a wash in balancing that leaves Scions still REALLY good.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

The Shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable because it's the End of Existence for all other tanks. It is the tank to destroy any other tank.

.. Though as a Guard-player, I'd have to say that 5:2 destruction ratio in points per turn is actually pretty low and by far, not the most efficient. Some units can do the reverse: 2:5.

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Quickjager wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not discussing that, I have always said that in the IG codex Conscripts are actually more powerfull, I think the only unit that has come less powerfull where Scions.


I think Scions are still great, even though the plasma dropsquad costs 24 more points, they received plenty of point reductions elsewhere to make up for it. Also extra hits on 6's now, so any IG player using searchlights now gets an extra shot on a 5+ while not being able to overheat in supercharged mode. It's a wash in balancing that leaves Scions still REALLY good.


Yeah, I'll arguee that they are still TOO good.

But, barring some Warlord Traits and Artifacts, I think the problems of the OP and more powerfull IG units are just point costs. Make the things that deserve it more expensive, and they could be fine.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 RedCommander wrote:
The Shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable because it's the End of Existence for all other tanks. It is the tank to destroy any other tank.


Tricked out its the End Of All Things. CC overwatch with defensive gunners is a joy to behold.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Quickjager wrote:
 Galas wrote:
This is a little inflamatory SilverAlien. You can do much better. And I'm saying this in a non-sarcastic way.


I mean they keep calling him a heckler. But he isn't wrong. Guard had everything they possibly needed to win in the Index; then they got more.

Hilariously they keep saying "conscripts got nerfed be quiet!" when the key issue with conscripts remain. Oh and conscripts have been buffed really, regiments made them better than before.


Conscripts got a flat out buff in the form of the Grenadiers stratagem. 30d6 grenades in over watch, or God forbid, assault is beyond the pale given what they could already do.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 22:55:49


Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RedCommander wrote:
The Shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable because it's the End of Existence for all other tanks. It is the tank to destroy any other tank.

.. Though as a Guard-player, I'd have to say that 5:2 destruction ratio in points per turn is actually pretty low and by far, not the most efficient. Some units can do the reverse: 2:5.


Oh no please share. You know what the most efficient you can kill conscripts are? Roughly 2:1, with some absurd glass cannon units. For admech or SM, our tanks are lucky to get 3:1 if we buff them with HQs, not 5:2 before accounting for any buffs or even doctrines into account.

If 2:5 is fair, conscripts would cost 5 or 6 points, so they actually die to anti infantry weapons at a decent rate.

I think you have no idea what point efficiency looks like this edition. Please, share units that fit your criteria.
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

SilverAlien wrote:
Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?


I'll come straight out and say its not, at least from the view at 1 days play of several very very short games of 2k.

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




To be fair I legitimately think your area sounds like it was due for a meta shift, and you should be finding some people can adapt to it to a degree at least. Unless it really is that SM/elite infantry focused, and people can't shift at all.

It's a broken codex, but so were quite a few in 7e and it was still playable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 23:00:17


 
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

SilverAlien wrote:
To be fair I legitimately think your area sounds like it was due for a meta shift, and you should be finding some people can adapt to it to a degree at least. Unless it really is that SM/elite infantry focused, and people can't shift at all.

It's a broken codex, but so were quite a few in 7e and it was still playable.


Playable, yes; but heavily stratified into 'Has a chance against the 500pt advantage Mechanicus congregation' and 'doesn't'. Sure the uber high tier folks got some variety in there, but the greater portion of us had to settle into that groove.

I'm genuinely worried this could put people off long term since it's up to the perennially scorned GMen players who've been getting the nasty end of the stick for quite a while to rise above it and not turn into the filth peddlers of the eldar eras. I was already a bit concerned with the index; the codex of, 'you can afford efficient hard counters to everything, in triplicate now' is worth a serious conversation about the proper order of things.

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



Mount Vernon, Iowa

Even if you guys are right and the book is garbage why waste your vitriol on random forum people?

Ive been a guard player for almost 10 years since I got into the hobby in 08. I only have one army. Whether they're overpowered or underpowered this week I don't have another option readily available.

What would you like me to do about your perception of their overpoweredness?
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





MarboLives wrote:
Even if you guys are right and the book is garbage why waste your vitriol on random forum people?

Ive been a guard player for almost 10 years since I got into the hobby in 08. I only have one army. Whether they're overpowered or underpowered this week I don't have another option readily available.

What would you like me to do about your perception of their overpoweredness?

Ah yes, the classic "you shouldn't discuss things on a discussion forum" argument.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



Mount Vernon, Iowa

Was a genuine question.
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

MarboLives wrote:
Even if you guys are right and the book is garbage why waste your vitriol on random forum people?

Ive been a guard player for almost 10 years since I got into the hobby in 08. I only have one army. Whether they're overpowered or underpowered this week I don't have another option readily available.

What would you like me to do about your perception of their overpoweredness?


I'm somewhere past the 12kpts mark of guard ( found 3 leman russes swimming in paint stripper i'd totally forgotten about this morning ) and i'm wary of my collection becoming useless because there's no viable opponents. What I don't want to see, and what could happen if we're not careful is "oh you play guard? i'd rather play someone else if that's alright" or, as the guard player, "Oh you play <weak, index only army>? I'll have to change my list so we're not wasting our time" both of which happened a great deal at the tail end of 7th. If on the other hand Guard becomes the new Space Marines in that everyone plays them that would be wonderful (and fluffy!) but I don't see it happening

We're in the hobby to have fun after all, and there's a genuine risk IG could quickly become 'not fun', at least for the majority of cases. If you can suggest some methods for keeping it fresh without buying models that aren't interesting to me as a player with my nebulous sense of what's neat or not, that'd be most welcome.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 23:33:58


Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

SilverAlien wrote:
 RedCommander wrote:
The Shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable because it's the End of Existence for all other tanks. It is the tank to destroy any other tank.

.. Though as a Guard-player, I'd have to say that 5:2 destruction ratio in points per turn is actually pretty low and by far, not the most efficient. Some units can do the reverse: 2:5.


Oh no please share. You know what the most efficient you can kill conscripts are? Roughly 2:1, with some absurd glass cannon units. For admech or SM, our tanks are lucky to get 3:1 if we buff them with HQs, not 5:2 before accounting for any buffs or even doctrines into account.

If 2:5 is fair, conscripts would cost 5 or 6 points, so they actually die to anti infantry weapons at a decent rate.

I think you have no idea what point efficiency looks like this edition. Please, share units that fit your criteria.


It's not an exact ratio but bear with me.

For example, four regular joes with meltaguns in the right place, at the right time can certainly earn their points back and then some. Anyway, they are certainly way more efficient than a Shadowsword when it comes to points. Shadowsword kills things that cost less than it. Joes kill things that cost more than them. Does this make any sense?

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm just being salty while saying I told you so tbh. It's cathartic.

As for balance, the codex is clearly a problem but it isn't insurmountable. Both from the opponent's standpoint and the guard players. Remember the difference between the guy who took a riptide and the guy who took three, possibly in that fething formation? Just use moderation if you think something is a touch strong, no big deal.

Worst case scenario, the tactics subforum will have more threads about finding good but not broken lists, and helping people find something ballpark for a given list. More work and annoying, but still playable.
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 RedCommander wrote:


It's not an exact ratio but bear with me.

For example, four regular joes with meltaguns in the right place, at the right time can certainly earn their points back and then some. Anyway, they are certainly way more efficient than a Shadowsword when it comes to points. Shadowsword kills things that cost less than it. Joes kill things that cost more than them. Does this make any sense?


Al-Rehem'd meltaguns certainly could for minimal cost but the Shadowsword (and arguably Hellhammer) can do it right from turn one, and potentially the enemy's turn one in overwatch. I'd suggest that for the tradeoff the SHCs are more reliable for the lower ratio, as very few things function at that ratio without the cooperation and cost of other units.

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




40% expected return is pretty good for unbuffed ranged shooting.
Melta is good but there are issues of getting it into range. You can drop in but screening is a thing.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Ah yes, the classic "you shouldn't discuss things on a discussion forum" argument.
That's not what he said, and you know it.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RedCommander wrote:
It's not an exact ratio but bear with me.

For example, four regular joes with meltaguns in the right place, at the right time can certainly earn their points back and then some. Anyway, they are certainly way more efficient than a Shadowsword when it comes to points. Shadowsword kills things that cost less than it. Joes kill things that cost more than them. Does this make any sense?


You are literally just wrong about how effective meltas are for cost, particularly as those are almost always glass cannon units that get a single round of shooting off and struggle to do even that due to issues with range and screening, as opposed to a tank that can start firing across the map turn one.

I'm telling you, what I described there is exceptionally abnormal. Some armies can't hit that sort of damage consistently with buffs, SM with Robby G often fall in the 2-3 range when being buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Melissia wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Ah yes, the classic "you shouldn't discuss things on a discussion forum" argument.
That's not what he said, and you know it.


What he actually said was he didn't see the point. Which is fair. He wasn't one of the people insisting guard was super balanced I'm enjoying mocking right.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/08 00:03:26


 
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

Lascannon HWTs on the other hand....

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 malamis wrote:
Lascannon HWTs on the other hand....


Are more point effective but very very fragile to any sort of long range shooting. Another glass cannon unit, albeit one far more practical than melta squads. A few units can easily take out something worth worth 70% of its cost, but will did at that same rate or faster to anti infantry fire power. God forbid someone uses something tailored for them, like autocannons or overcharged plasma.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Yeah totally broken, ruins what 8th edition was supposed to be; semi-balanced and quick.

Now IG has too many orders, it slows things down. Cheap infantry with effective doctrines, double tapping tanks, and literally no weaknesses. Broken, horribly broken.

I'm not bent at guard players, farm from that. Enjoy.

I'm bent GW would release the abomination without some clear weaknesses; it aint speed (move move move 24" units), it aint number of models (cheap infantry), it aint toughness (T8 tanks and super heavies), it aint firepower (double tapping tanks + increased -ap basilisks).

There are literally no weaknesses. Even LD on blobs doesn't matter with commissars. I'm not sure what to do against the guard.

Well, maybe take guard...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 malamis wrote:
 RedCommander wrote:
The Shadowsword can kill 200 points of enemy tanks every turn despite costing only 500ish itself and being quite durable because it's the End of Existence for all other tanks. It is the tank to destroy any other tank.


Tricked out its the End Of All Things. CC overwatch with defensive gunners is a joy to behold.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Quickjager wrote:
 Galas wrote:
This is a little inflamatory SilverAlien. You can do much better. And I'm saying this in a non-sarcastic way.


I mean they keep calling him a heckler. But he isn't wrong. Guard had everything they possibly needed to win in the Index; then they got more.

Hilariously they keep saying "conscripts got nerfed be quiet!" when the key issue with conscripts remain. Oh and conscripts have been buffed really, regiments made them better than before.


Conscripts got a flat out buff in the form of the Grenadiers stratagem. 30d6 grenades in over watch, or God forbid, assault is beyond the pale given what they could already do.


The 'Grenadiers' stratagem limits use to 'up to ten models in the unit', so no 30d6.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

GhostRecon wrote:
The 'Grenadiers' stratagem limits use to 'up to ten models in the unit', so no 30d6.
Nice. Makes them worse to use the stratagem on than basic infantry.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
 
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