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This is just a curiosity that struck me when i recently started reading some of the tau books. The tau were able to figure out the codex and successfully react to all astartes actions, as we all know thats how the tau defeat their enemy. But how would they react to non-codex chapters? especially someone like the Mentors (I bet you havent heard that name in a while), as the mentors supposedly would be able to learn from and begin o counter tau, in a conflict like this, who would win?

Under equal circumstances like an isolated battalion of Tau vs an isolated battalion of Mentors it would probably go back and fourth with the side evolving quicker eventually getting the upper hand.
As a Space Wolves player I hate to say it but my bet is on the Tau in that area, their technology is supposedly growing at a rate that makes humans look like they're standing still.

Any strategist who relies entirely on predicting a known set of actions becomes immediately vulnerable in turn, as his own responses are then equally known.

For example, the Tau Commander knows that in Situation A, the Space Marines employ Strategy Alpha and take the right countermeasures. But if it is obvious that they are going to take those countermeasures as a response, the opponent can then make it look like they're doing Strategy Alpha, and actually perform Strategy Beta (which is conveniently effective against countermeasures for Strategy Alpha). Then trhe next engagement turns into a game of deception, where there are no set strategies, and trying to predict on the basis that there are is completely hit and miss. Aka, real life.

No actual military opponent behaves like a computer, where they will always take Action X in response to Situation Z. Even Guilliman inserted a bit in his Codex about thinking outside the Codex, on the basis that there will always be a need for that sort of thing. Space Marines are battle-hardened warriors, including those who follow the Codex. They're not stupid. It ultimately comes down (like in most vaguely equal wars) to who has the better strategist and logistician.

While not mentioned in the fluff enough, all competent combat commanders would be able to react to changes in battlefield conditions (if anything this is the very nature of real warfare/combat --- reacting and responding to an ever changing field of threats without getting all of your folks killed). The old adage of "no plane survives contact with the enemy" is of decent importance here.

The Mentor Legion (note: the real name) is very much akin to something like our Green Berets, deploying in small specialized units to work with/train and learn from allies and other Imperium forces. A Space Marine codex shouldn't really offer any insight into how a Space Marine commander or Veteran Cadre Squad would operate - simply the tools they'd have available. While that's a bonus, it would all come down to the commanders in the field. Surely some Mentor Legion marines are less strategically astute than others and some Tau commanders might be pure dunces.

The only upper hand the Mentor Legion would have in this situation is that historically they also served as the test-bed and development chapter for new weaponry - it was required to get a thumbs-up from the Chapter master in order to see service with the Astartes. So, it's likely some new weaponry would be available and would catch the Tau unawares.

To be fair, one big flaw of the Ultramarines is that they missed the point of the codex, and took it as gospel.

That is to say, instead of having a Sun Tzu Art of War style outlook where general lessons can be drawn, they look at the Codex literally.

Leastways that's how it used to be till the author himself told them "RAI NOT RAW"

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
As a Space Wolves player I hate to say it but my bet is on the Tau in that area, their technology is supposedly growing at a rate that makes humans look like they're standing still.

I'd actually say that the folk of Fenris have a massive edge against foes that are not trained to think on their feet. While not strategic geniuses (that is what they have Jarls for), they excel at small unit tactics due to their close-knit pack structure and the ability to communicate swiftly via smell. With each pack fighting and reacting differently in the same situation combined with the unpredictable temperament of each individual SW makes information gathering on their preferred tactics and any attempts to predict them based on earlier information a nightmare. It might become possible if they become stuck in a prolonged engagement where traits of individual packs can be identified, however this situation is unlikely as the folk of Fenris aren't known for their patience (unless their leaders have adopted the teachings of the Hidden Wolf).

Their entire doctrine can be summarized as thus:
1. Do something incredibly stupid.
2. ???
3. Profit.

One of the main motifs of the rivalry between the folk of Fenris and Dark Angels is tactics vs. strategy. This also describes, to a lesser extent, their role as the perpetual spanner in Tzeentch's overly complex and incomprehensible works.

 Ketara wrote:
Any strategist who relies entirely on predicting a known set of actions becomes immediately vulnerable in turn, as his own responses are then equally known.

For example, the Tau Commander knows that in Situation A, the Space Marines employ Strategy Alpha and take the right countermeasures. But if it is obvious that they are going to take those countermeasures as a response, the opponent can then make it look like they're doing Strategy Alpha, and actually perform Strategy Beta (which is conveniently effective against countermeasures for Strategy Alpha). Then trhe next engagement turns into a game of deception, where there are no set strategies, and trying to predict on the basis that there are is completely hit and miss. Aka, real life.

No actual military opponent behaves like a computer, where they will always take Action X in response to Situation Z. Even Guilliman inserted a bit in his Codex about thinking outside the Codex, on the basis that there will always be a need for that sort of thing. Space Marines are battle-hardened warriors, including those who follow the Codex. They're not stupid. It ultimately comes down (like in most vaguely equal wars) to who has the better strategist and logistician.

To summarise

A < B < C < D < E < F (ad infinitum) < A

And if Commander A knows that Commander B knows that A < B < C then he can change A into C to counter be. But then it becomes a giant game of "If I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know..."


In which case, the best response is to do something completely unprecendented and ignore the A < B structure altogether and introduce Strategy 1.

Which involves an outflanking Baneblade from the bushes.


That is true strategic genius

cla139 wrote:
This is just a curiosity that struck me when i recently started reading some of the tau books. The tau were able to figure out the codex and successfully react to all astartes actions, as we all know thats how the tau defeat their enemy.

It really isn't though.

The Mirrorcodex is Farsight's creation and is composed of his own observations on imperial behaviour and commentary and analysis on what information from the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis he's been able to recover and translate. It's very much a primer on the mindset of the Imperium's armies, how they measure tactical success, what they prioritize, certainly their tactics, but more importantly it helps a commander grasp concepts that are alien to the Tau.

For example: 'This army is occupying a city and will build walls around it and fight you inside it in order to keep it.' is a bizarre idea to the Tau, who believe the common sense response would be to flee the city and cut off the enemy's supply lines so they can't keep it. It provides context for Tau commanders to better understand the objectives of their enemies, which in turn allows them to apply their own talents to counter them. It very rarely works as a 'stolen playbook'.

Furthermore, the Tau have had plenty of success without it. It's use during the events in War zone Damocles we're a desperate gambit on the part of Shadowsun and even then she was sour about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Related to that, the idea that any chapter blindly follows the codex' strictures as word of law is a gross oversimplification of how space marine chapters operate. The codex itself calls for its reader to use the lessons demonstrated within but to use their own awareness of the situation to shape how or if they will apply them.

And while there are chapters that are accused of following the codex too closely (a hyperbolic accusation made in-universe), the Ultramarines themselves aren't one of them. They know its place in the greater scheme of things.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

cla139 wrote:
This is just a curiosity that struck me when i recently started reading some of the tau books. The tau were able to figure out the codex and successfully react to all astartes actions, as we all know thats how the tau defeat their enemy.

It really isn't though.

The Mirrorcodex is Farsight's creation and is composed of his own observations on imperial behaviour and commentary and analysis on what information from the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis he's been able to recover and translate. It's very much a primer on the mindset of the Imperium's armies, how they measure tactical success, what they prioritize, certainly their tactics, but more importantly it helps a commander grasp concepts that are alien to the Tau.

For example: 'This army is occupying a city and will build walls around it and fight you inside it in order to keep it.' is a bizarre idea to the Tau, who believe the common sense response would be to flee the city and cut off the enemy's supply lines so they can't keep it. It provides context for Tau commanders to better understand the objectives of their enemies, which in turn allows them to apply their own talents to counter them. It very rarely works as a 'stolen playbook'.

Furthermore, the Tau have had plenty of success without it. It's use during the events in War zone Damocles we're a desperate gambit on the part of Shadowsun and even then she was sour about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Related to that, the idea that any chapter blindly follows the codex' strictures as word of law is a gross oversimplification of how space marine chapters operate. The codex itself calls for its reader to use the lessons demonstrated within but to use their own awareness of the situation to shape how or if they will apply them.

And while there are chapters that are accused of following the codex too closely (a hyperbolic accusation made in-universe), the Ultramarines themselves aren't one of them. They know its place in the greater scheme of things.

Listen to everything this man says.