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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Lord Arkos has the Keywords of <The Faithless> and <Alpha Legion> .

His datasheet says he provides a movement benefit to <The Faithless>.

Which Legion rules do <The Faithless>, as a Faction, utilize?

Forgeworld by specifically providing a faction keyword of <The Faithless> seem to be indicating this is it's own legion, and NOT a renegade legion.

As there aren't many, if any, other examples where a Legion is given a faction keyword, does this need to be run as <RENEGADES> or can you follow the rules for successor chapters on pg 196 of the SM Codex, indicating you may select a parent legion and their stratagems, etc. GW provides the example of using CRIMSONS FISTS to use the IMPERIAL FISTS benefits.


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Errata changed his keywords. He now has ‘Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Alpha Legion, The Faithless’

As such he would use Alpha Legion rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 19:51:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Wrong character, CatBug.

Page 41 – Lord Arkos, Faction Keywords
Change this datasheet’s Faction Keywords line to read:
‘Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Alpha Legion,
The Faithless’



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correct. I still remain conflicted here. Do we then believe that <The Faithless> can use Alpha Legion, or is this not allowed? Him simply having both is what is causing this to be an issue in my mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 19:52:03


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Since the rules now directly tell you to use the background information, and The Faithless is (I would assume) some splinter cell of the Alpha Legion, they would use Alpha Legion rules, the same way that the Raptor's Special Character (I forget the name) is forced to use Raven Guard rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

See, that's my argument entirely. It's identical.

I am being told, however, I'm "making things up" by using this point, because the CSM Codex does not discuss Successor chapters.

CSM Codex indicates: "If your Chaos Space Marines are from a Renegade Chapter, or if they do not otherwise have an associated trait, use the Renegade Chapters trait opposite."

HOWEVER, <The Faithless> are not a renegade chapter, they're clearly a Forgeworld Legion and their rules are shared on a named character. They are unique in this right.


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

I don't see anything that would lead me to believe THE FAITHLESS keyword is the same as the ALPHA LEGION keyword. As written, it simply allows him to be fielded in either an Alpha Legion or Renegade Chapter without costing the detachment its Legion Trait.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

So, your interpretation would be that Lord Arkos only benefits <The Faithless> as a Renegade chapter, and can himself be added to an Alpha Legion detachment with zero benefit, and can not be included to Renegade detachments without causing them to lose their ability to use chapter tactics, as he himself is from Alpha Legion?

It's just the one character, man. He's breaking my brain.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Cephalobeard wrote:
So, your interpretation would be that Lord Arkos only benefits <The Faithless> as a Renegade chapter, and can himself be added to an Alpha Legion detachment with zero benefit, and can not be included to Renegade detachments without causing them to lose their ability to use chapter tactics, as he himself is from Alpha Legion?

It's just the one character, man. He's breaking my brain.

No. As I said, since he has both Faction keywords he can be taken in either a Faithless detachment or an Alpha Legion detachment and not cause that detachment to lose its Legion Traits.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

 Ghaz wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
So, your interpretation would be that Lord Arkos only benefits <The Faithless> as a Renegade chapter, and can himself be added to an Alpha Legion detachment with zero benefit, and can not be included to Renegade detachments without causing them to lose their ability to use chapter tactics, as he himself is from Alpha Legion?

It's just the one character, man. He's breaking my brain.

No. As I said, since he has both Faction keywords he can be taken in either a Faithless detachment or an Alpha Legion detachment and not cause that detachment to lose its Legion Traits.


Huh. That's fair. I don't know how I missed the whole point where you said the exact opposite what I asked you.

I don't know. I'm not entirely convinced either way. I understand both sides of what I'm seeing here. While I will concede that CSM does NOT include a mention of successor chapters, I would argue what appears to be RAI here with this guy. At the very least with allowing his Aura to affect Alpha Legion, which in the end solves the whole issue entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 20:37:57


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's frustrating.

The only answer I can get from forgeworld, is that 'The Faithless' Is a faction they plan to release in future, and that at the moment, the rule does nothing but effect Arkos.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

That's... Very odd.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Right In back ground terms...

"The Faithless" is Arkos' own Alpha Legion Cell/Warband/Whatever

The Faithless are Alpha Legion, Similar to the Different "Warbands" etc you see in Codecies (The ones with the Different Colour Schemes)

The fact is, is that Arkos Leads "The Faithless", so you would use the Alpha Legion Rules for your "The Faithless" army (as they are Alpha Legion)

So you would say "My Warband is a Deviation of X Legion, so thats what rules they have" (Similar to how Blood Ravens etc can pick their chapter Tactics)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Here's hoping we can get some kind of input from Forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speak of the devil, I got an email from them:

"Hi there.

Thanks for contacting us and we will do our best to answer your questions below.

Any 'The Faithless' armies would have to be counted as Renegades until we release a publication that covers the Forge World Chaos units in more detail."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 15:38:17


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I guess that's a better answer than the one I got.
Actually Arkos' ability is probably best used with Renegades.

But.. we all know Alpha Legion are gooood.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Idk, I think it's a pretty poor excuse for it. It's a hamfisted ruling of "no successors allowed, because chaos" and it forces all non-canon Legions to be renegades. Do not like.

We'll see what they do with it over time, I guess.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Cephalobeard wrote:
Here's hoping we can get some kind of input from Forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speak of the devil, I got an email from them:

"Hi there.

Thanks for contacting us and we will do our best to answer your questions below.

Any 'The Faithless' armies would have to be counted as Renegades until we release a publication that covers the Forge World Chaos units in more detail."

Wait, so he has the Renegades rules, but still has the Alpha Legion keyword. So is he benefiting from the additional -1 to hit in addition to the Advance + Charge?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Urgh. Kinda. That is dumb tho .
Can he make benefit of Veterans Of The Long War then?

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

WELCOME TO LORD ARKOS

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Here's hoping we can get some kind of input from Forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speak of the devil, I got an email from them:

"Hi there.

Thanks for contacting us and we will do our best to answer your questions below.

Any 'The Faithless' armies would have to be counted as Renegades until we release a publication that covers the Forge World Chaos units in more detail."

Wait, so he has the Renegades rules, but still has the Alpha Legion keyword. So is he benefiting from the additional -1 to hit in addition to the Advance + Charge?

If he's in an Alpha Legion detachment yes.

It's really not that complex here... he's dual factioned. He works in an Alpha Legion detachment to benefit from all their glory and he also works in a renegade The Faithless detachment to benefit them. Which you choose depends on you.

Or as the popular little girl meme states: Why don't we have both?


Alpha Legion Detachment
- Lord Arkos
- Alpha Legion Noise Marines
- Alpha Legion Berzerkers

The Faithless Detachment
- Raptors, Chosen, Bikes, whatever


Now Lord Arkos benefits from the -1 to hit of Alpha Legion but also has targets available to use his aura on. It's pretty simple that you can't apply Alpha Legion and the The Faithless to other CSM as you can only choose one legion for them, and it has to be The Faithless to work with Arkos so no Alpha Legion benefits for them. But you can still take them in a side detachment as mercenaries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly it feels more and more like GW is going the way of Magic the Gathering. We have legendaries that buff everyone on your field, we have interrupts and buffs that pull off shenanigans, and now we have dual color creatures that can benefit from multiple types of effects related to color.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 17:32:54


It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

I don't think a dual faction "monster" that only benefits one side of "half" his color wheel is very MTG in nature to me. This seems like an unfinished rule set they released, with intention to expand on it in the future, but still leaving it vague enough to trip people up in the dawn of a new edition.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't think a dual faction "monster" that only benefits one side of "half" his color wheel is very MTG in nature to me. This seems like an unfinished rule set they released, with intention to expand on it in the future, but still leaving it vague enough to trip people up in the dawn of a new edition.

What? That's totally MTG. Heck they have triple color commanders that only benefit a single troop type.

It may be an unfinished rule but you can still use both halves of his keyword line if you choose. You just can't magically grant your army the dual capacity of Alpha Legion traits AND Renegade traits. Have to pick one.

Lord Arkos
- Buffs Renegades
- Counts as both Alpha Legion and Renegades

Simple really.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

While it's easy to be condescending and claim it's "simple", it's evident by this thread alone that it confuses a number of people.

It's likely a bit more difficult to try and understand WHY they read it the way they do, and to try and find a way to explain it.

This is the first character I can think of where this is the case, and does so without detailed explanation.

The ruling is clear now that Forgeworld has weighed in on it, in simple terms, but it makes complete sense why people would be confused.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 17:48:48


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Cephalobeard wrote:
While it's easy to be condescending and claim it's "simple", it's evident by this thread alone that it confuses a number of people.

It's likely a bit more difficult to try and understand WHY they read it the way they do, and to try and find a way to explain it.

This is the first character I can think of where this is the case, and does so without detailed explanation.

The ruling is clear now that Forgeworld has weighed in on it, in simple terms, but it makes complete sense why people would be confused.


Well, let's see... I wasn't being condescending, I was simplifying a rule that you said was confusing. I condensed into a straight forward simple understanding without the detailed explanation you think is necessary because the rules already govern how it gets handled. It may be a unique unit in its capabilities but it obeys the same rules as any others. Including not obeying rules in a Codex that has nothing to do with Chaos, similar to the DG/TS quandaries we keep seeing. He may get an exception down the line but currently lacks it.

I understand why people read it strangely and summarized it in a few simple lines. Then you attacked me for that.

Noted, I will no longer try to help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 20:23:20


It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

No one attacked you. Adding "Simple really" to a thread where people are showing confusion and discussing a rule is condescending, and I'm genuinely sorry you do not recognize that.

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/Submit
adjective
having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

It's not constructive to a discussion to take time to include how simple you found a subject to be.

Regardless, we have the ruling from Forgeworld. Personal opinion and conjecture at this point is only self serving.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 22:07:34


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one attacked you. Adding "Simple really" to a thread where people are showing confusion and discussing a rule is condescending, and I'm genuinely sorry you do not recognize that.

I do not recognize it because it's not true.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's not constructive to a discussion to take time to include how simple you found a subject to be.

It's not directed at how simple I find the subject, it's encouraging you to see it as simple.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/Submit
adjective
having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

For I was not showing any patronizing feelings of superiority by calling my RESULT simple. The same "Simple really" finishing statement could used after showing someone how to solve a mathematical problem that they were struggling with. It's an ease of mind technique to reduce the perceived barriers to the problem by disclosing how it can be broken down into digestible terms and thus rendered simple to the person having the problem, not to me.

I'm genuinely sorry you do not recognize that everyone isn't attempting to be a jerk on dakka.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 05:29:59


It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Back on topic please guys, thanks!

   
 
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