Switch Theme:

Crusaders in AM: Acts of Faith  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Here's a question:

Since Acts of Faith on IG crusaders is a unit ability, not an army ability, can each unit roll to manifest an Act of Faith? Each iteration of the rule says 'on a 2+, one unit from your army with this ability may'... but that's just the unit rule; if you have the rule from multiple units, can each unit activate the rule once?

Sorry if I am being unclear...
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Here's a question:

Since Acts of Faith on IG crusaders is a unit ability, not an army ability, can each unit roll to manifest an Act of Faith? Each iteration of the rule says 'on a 2+, one unit from your army with this ability may'... but that's just the unit rule; if you have the rule from multiple units, can each unit activate the rule once?

Sorry if I am being unclear...
Nope, you're absolutely right. The way that the unit rule is worded each unit says to roll a D6 at the start, so you roll that many D6s. It's not even optional, you're forced to roll and "can" doesn't permit refusing (it would have to say "may").

As usual, if GW intended it to overlap with the Sisters of Battle rule, it's going to need errata or one of the oh-so-prevalent special snowflake FAQ rulings to do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 14:48:57


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

So does that mean that if you have ~6 or whatever squads of Crusaders you can (even must?) do 6 acts of faith?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So does that mean that if you have ~6 or whatever squads of Crusaders you can (even must?) do 6 acts of faith?
Looks that way. It's no different than multiple Rhino's trying to self repair.

To argue that the Crusader's AoF rule only permits one roll is to argue that having two Rhinos results in only one being able to attempt a self repair.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So does that mean that if you have ~6 or whatever squads of Crusaders you can (even must?) do 6 acts of faith?
Looks that way. It's no different than multiple Rhino's trying to self repair.

To argue that the Crusader's AoF rule only permits one roll is to argue that having two Rhinos results in only one being able to attempt a self repair.


Is there any exclusion to using each AOF on the same unit?

So in our little derpy scenario, one unit could Fight 6 times as if it was the Fight subphase, or heal 6 models, or whatever. Is there a rule saying a unit cannot benefit more than once?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So does that mean that if you have ~6 or whatever squads of Crusaders you can (even must?) do 6 acts of faith?
Looks that way. It's no different than multiple Rhino's trying to self repair.

To argue that the Crusader's AoF rule only permits one roll is to argue that having two Rhinos results in only one being able to attempt a self repair.


Is there any exclusion to using each AOF on the same unit?

So in our little derpy scenario, one unit could Fight 6 times as if it was the Fight subphase, or heal 6 models, or whatever. Is there a rule saying a unit cannot benefit more than once?
Very nice catch, there isn't for the Crusader's AoF rule. You could take 6 units, then Act of Faith one of them to the moon and back with 6 moves.

New GW, same as the Old GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 15:09:55


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Wow....

....

... that's so troll. I expect it will be FAQ'd but wow.

If you bring them with a Sister's Detachment / Celestine, could you Act of Faith one of their units seven times or whatever? It'd be funny to Vanguard 7 Meltaguns forwards, spend one AOF on moving into melta range, and then shoot 6 times or whatever...
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...


Yep! I expect it to be FAQ'd as well.

Still is hilarious imo till then.

I did the same thing with buying 46 hunter killer missiles or whatever on an LRBT - GW is just kinda bad at editing imo.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...


Yep! I expect it to be FAQ'd as well.

Still is hilarious imo till then.

I did the same thing with buying 46 hunter killer missiles or whatever on an LRBT - GW is just kinda bad at editing imo.


You so need to model that up and put it on the GW Facebook page "hey check out my legal Leman Russ!"

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JohnnyHell wrote:
So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...


Unless it's GW's way for apologizing for the long dry spell Sisters players had to wait through to get anything decent (until Imperial Agents they didn't have a physical codex with them for aeons).

......naah, can't be that. If that was their reasoning, then with similar reasoning if they brought the Squats their rules would be so overpowered that any one of them would be able to beat the Emperor in a fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 15:47:30


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 doctortom wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...


Unless it's GW's way for apologizing for the long dry spell Sisters players had to wait through to get anything decent (until Imperial Agents they didn't have a physical codex with them for aeons).

......naah, can't be that. If that was their reasoning, then with similar reasoning if they brought the Squats their rules would be so overpowered that any one of them would be able to beat the Emperor in a fight.


Maybe that's the secret January release?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 15:52:03


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



In Warp Transit to next battlefield location, Destination Unknown

 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
So given you've established its super broken taken that way, I think we can deduce that wasn't the intent and it'll be FAQ'd...


Yep! I expect it to be FAQ'd as well.

Still is hilarious imo till then.

I did the same thing with buying 46 hunter killer missiles or whatever on an LRBT - GW is just kinda bad at editing imo.


You so need to model that up and put it on the GW Facebook page "hey check out my legal Leman Russ!"


I would love to see a Leman Russ with 50 Hunter Killer missiles. Have an Exhault!

Cowards will be shot! Survivors will be shot again!

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

So the new FAQ left them untouched - still a per-unit ability?
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So the new FAQ left them untouched - still a per-unit ability?


Let me put it this way: have you tried spamming crusaders and actually doing that? And survived? Just saying.
I don't think they noticed that question being out there, I won't believe that it is actually intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/22 18:11:11


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

nekooni wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So the new FAQ left them untouched - still a per-unit ability?


Let me put it this way: have you tried spamming crusaders and actually doing that? And survived? Just saying.
I don't think they noticed that question being out there, I won't believe that it is actually intended.


I put it on the FB page and they said they'd send it up.

As for have I tried it - one of my armies includes 4 eight-man Crusader units, so it's especially relevant. I've played it both ways in my local club and we remain undecided on the issue.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So the new FAQ left them untouched - still a per-unit ability?


Let me put it this way: have you tried spamming crusaders and actually doing that? And survived? Just saying.
I don't think they noticed that question being out there, I won't believe that it is actually intended.


I put it on the FB page and they said they'd send it up.

As for have I tried it - one of my armies includes 4 eight-man Crusader units, so it's especially relevant. I've played it both ways in my local club and we remain undecided on the issue.


Undecided on the 'intention' part? For real?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

nekooni wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So the new FAQ left them untouched - still a per-unit ability?


Let me put it this way: have you tried spamming crusaders and actually doing that? And survived? Just saying.
I don't think they noticed that question being out there, I won't believe that it is actually intended.


I put it on the FB page and they said they'd send it up.

As for have I tried it - one of my armies includes 4 eight-man Crusader units, so it's especially relevant. I've played it both ways in my local club and we remain undecided on the issue.


Undecided on the 'intention' part? For real?


Yea, because the wording was changed from SOB (indicating that they at least looked at it) and also because it wasn't in the latest FAQ (everyone, including me, thought it would be).
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

It's not that broken if I take 6 maxed out crusader squads that's 900 points to move one unit across the battlefield very quickly
Even athough
5 2 man squads and 1 10 man thats still 300 points and those 2 man crusader squad units are not gonna do much

Also intentire is unimportant on YMDC as it's subjective and raw is clear

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/22 22:47:22


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Are you talking about Crusaders on Index Imperium 2; pg92?

I dont get how your getting 1 AoF per unit when it says AoF is once per turn?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Are you talking about Crusaders on Index Imperium 2; pg92?

I dont get how your getting 1 AoF per unit when it says AoF is once per turn?


The Crusaders in the imperial guard codex make it a unit ability. It still says once per turn - but only for that unit. Like how a Rhino using its repair doesn't prevent other rhinos from repairing even though it is once per turn.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Because of the way the rule is worded.

If you look at the new bodyguard rule "Roll a D6 each time a friendly Astra Militarum Infantry Character (excluding Ogryns) loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of any models with this
ability;"

It's worded in such a way that regardless of the number of models with rule it only triggers once

Compare that wording to AOF

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a 2+ one of the units from your army with this ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list:

The rule itself only applies once per unit but there is no rule stopping it triggering for each unit that has this rule. SI it triggers multiple times.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/23 00:08:37


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






WOW... yeah thats nice, most likely will be faq, have fun with it till then.

   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

U02dah4 wrote:
It's not that broken if I take 6 maxed out crusader squads that's 900 points to move one unit across the battlefield very quickly
Even athough
5 2 man squads and 1 10 man thats still 300 points and those 2 man crusader squad units are not gonna do much

Also intentire is unimportant on YMDC as it's subjective and raw is clear


it's broken AF, because you can do 4 2man squads and 2 10man , and have 3 AoF per 10 man squad. it means you'll have both squads in a very good charge range for sure, at 4 move actions per 10 man squad.
And what happens when you bring the AM version of crusaders in a Sisters of Battle army? Just spam crusaders in the back line and have all the sisters in flamer / melta / charge range Turn 1.
And turn 2 you'll still have those crusaders, so you can spam the other acts , shooting/fighting like madmen - well, madwomen.
And that's fine?
   
Made in ru
Been Around the Block




Acts of Faith: Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, ONE UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY with this ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the followin list.

Dont try anything fancy just because they dont give this little rule its own page, instead placing it in ONLY UNIT in the entire codex, who benefits from it. Rule is crystally clear, on 2+ ONE UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY can AoF, no matter how much of D6 you gonna roll for your multiple crusaders squards.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/23 09:28:48


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

No wording is clear each unit rolls a d6 and each 2+ means one unit from your army may do one of the following
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




EricDominus wrote:
Acts of Faith: Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, ONE UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY with this ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the followin list.

Dont try anything fancy just because they dont give this little rule its own page, instead placing it in ONLY UNIT in the entire codex, who benefits from it. Rule is crystally clear, on 2+ ONE UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY can AoF, no matter how much of D6 you gonna roll for your multiple crusaders squards.

The argument is that since it's a unit ability (it's on the unit datasheet, and not at the beginning of the codex), the ability is resolved on a per-unit basis: you can use the ability (roll a D6) as many times as you have units with this ability.
I believe it's an unforeseen side-effect from moving the rules from army-wide to unit-specific, and isn't what the designers intended, but they did mess up.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

nekooni wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
It's not that broken if I take 6 maxed out crusader squads that's 900 points to move one unit across the battlefield very quickly
Even athough
5 2 man squads and 1 10 man thats still 300 points and those 2 man crusader squad units are not gonna do much

Also intentire is unimportant on YMDC as it's subjective and raw is clear


it's broken AF, because you can do 4 2man squads and 2 10man , and have 3 AoF per 10 man squad. it means you'll have both squads in a very good charge range for sure, at 4 move actions per 10 man squad.
And what happens when you bring the AM version of crusaders in a Sisters of Battle army? Just spam crusaders in the back line and have all the sisters in flamer / melta / charge range Turn 1.
And turn 2 you'll still have those crusaders, so you can spam the other acts , shooting/fighting like madmen - well, madwomen.
And that's fine?


In your scenario we are talking 420 (bane blade style points just for the crusaders) this gives you 6 rolls which gives you 5 moves because on average you will role a 1. Now it will take 3-4 moves to get a unit into position so that's one maybe 2 flamer squads that can advance if the enemy deploy forward. Meanwhile 420 points of crusaders is walking slowly towards the enemy not firing a gun or scoring any damage

It's not terrible but it's not broken. I'm pretty sure I would consistantly beat that army

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/23 10:15:24


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah, TBF the reason I think it's not broken is because of how expensive crusaders are.

They're more expensive than Space Marines, and don't really /do/ anything. In units of 10 they do, but the 2 man units will die like 2 T3 space marines to most shooting and cost as much as 10 guardsmen.

At 15PPM, Crusaders just aren't that viable as support units. They need to pull their weight, either as bodyguards or as combat units, and to do that they absolutely must participate in the game, rather than dicking around.
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




It gets very broken when you start applying the Crusaders rule to other units with the same rule though.

May I ask what Acts of Faith Crusaders may peform(by the list they have in the codex)?

   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: