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An infantry squad consist of 10 models that costs 4pts each for a total of 40pts.

The codex says that if models from this unit form a HWT there is no additional points cost.

What does that leave me with as a total for a naked infantry squad including a HWT, not taking into account weapons and equipment?
36pts, 38pts or 40pts?
Battlescribe says 36pts but it could be wrong?

I would count it as 40pts and move on with it but as it happens to be, my list is hanging on but a few points and this will very much decide how it ends up.

Because Battlescribe isn't infallible. And in any case the HWT issue is unclear and has never been clarified.

Battlescribe is crowd sourced and is subject to inaccuracies.

Consult the official rulebook/ codex for accurate info.

skchsan wrote:
Battlescribe is crowd sourced and is subject to inaccuracies.

Consult the official rulebook/ codex for accurate info.

I am consulting the rulebook and codex, and comparing with the index, and trying to figure it out but cant find a definitive answer. Battlescribe does it one way but since I cant know if its correct im asking here.

My understanding of the RAW in the index is:

-an infantry squad is formed of 1 sergeant, 9 guardsman, having 10 models.
-2 of 9 guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team, taking a heavy weapon at point cost listed. the said infantry squad is now 9 models.

skchsan wrote:
My understanding of the RAW in the index is:

-an infantry squad is formed of 1 sergeant, 9 guardsman, having 10 models.
-2 of 9 guardsmen can form a heavy weapons team, taking a heavy weapon at point cost listed. the said infantry squad is now 9 models.

I agree, it makes an infantry squad consisting of 9 models (1 sergeant, 7 guardsmen, 1 HWT).
But while the index lists HWT models and infantry models at the same cost, in the codex the HWT costs 6pts.

Then again the codex specifically states that when models from an infantry squad forms a HWT there is no additional point costs for the model so I guess I have my answer.

The base cost of an infantry squad with HWT is 36pts.

Plus the heavy weapon, of course, which IIRC is more expensive than the guardsman you traded away to man it.

I can't make much sense of "there is no additional points cost" if it doesn't mean that you only actually pay for 9 models. This was added specifically for the codex, after everyone was just assuming that you still had to pay for 10, and certainly nobody was thinking you had to pay more than you would for 10 regular infantry.

So I think there was always a RAW case for 36, but now as far as I can tell they've gone out of their way to tell us that 36 is correct.

I guess they could be trying to say that you don't have to pay the increased cost for HWTs found in heavy weapon squads, but this itself seems to assume that you're paying for the HWT as its own model (so, it's telling us that the squad costs 36 and not 38), and also note that Veterans have the same asterisk even though their per-model cost is the same as that of a HWS.

OK - so I'd read it like that:

1 Sarge and 9 Guardsmen make up any Infantry Squad, and that's what you pay 40 points for.
2 of those Guardsmen can form a HWT without extra cost, so you still pay for the two Guardsmen and their heavy weapon, but they form a HWT and act as that model.

nekooni wrote:
OK - so I'd read it like that:

1 Sarge and 9 Guardsmen make up any Infantry Squad, and that's what you pay 40 points for.
2 of those Guardsmen can form a HWT without extra cost, so you still pay for the two Guardsmen and their heavy weapon, but they form a HWT and act as that model.

But why would anyone think that you pay more than 8 points for the heavy weapon team?

Dionysodorus wrote:

nekooni wrote:
OK - so I'd read it like that:

1 Sarge and 9 Guardsmen make up any Infantry Squad, and that's what you pay 40 points for.
2 of those Guardsmen can form a HWT without extra cost, so you still pay for the two Guardsmen and their heavy weapon, but they form a HWT and act as that model.

But why would anyone think that you pay more than 8 points for the heavy weapon team?

He didn't say that you 'pay more than' 8 points for the team. He's saying that you buy the two Guardsman models at 4 points each, and then upgrade them to a Heavy Weapons Team at no cost.

 Ghaz wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

nekooni wrote:
OK - so I'd read it like that:

1 Sarge and 9 Guardsmen make up any Infantry Squad, and that's what you pay 40 points for.
2 of those Guardsmen can form a HWT without extra cost, so you still pay for the two Guardsmen and their heavy weapon, but they form a HWT and act as that model.

But why would anyone think that you pay more than 8 points for the heavy weapon team?

He didn't say that you 'pay more than' 8 points for the team. He's saying that you buy the two Guardsman models at 4 points each, and then upgrade them to a Heavy Weapons Team at no cost.

Yes, I understood that. He's reading the note which was added to the codex as saying "you don't pay more than 8 points for the team". This strikes me as implausible, since I'm not sure that anyone would ever have thought that you actually had to pay more than 8 points for the team. That's why, as I explained in my earlier post, I think you have to read this as saying that you pay less than 8 points for the team.

Like, the confusion about this pre-codex was entirely about whether or not you're paying 36 or 40 points for the squad, right? Nobody ever suggested that you might have to pay more than 40. What is the author trying to accomplish with this note?

nekooni wrote:
OK - so I'd read it like that:

1 Sarge and 9 Guardsmen make up any Infantry Squad, and that's what you pay 40 points for.
2 of those Guardsmen can form a HWT without extra cost, so you still pay for the two Guardsmen and their heavy weapon, but they form a HWT and act as that model.

Thats how Ive done it before but only now, as my list is dependent on those very points, I wanted it cleared up and found that this does not seem to be correct.

The codex specifically says that in order to determine your armys total points value you add up the values for all models and their wargear. In which case we would be trading two 4pts guardmen for one 6pts HWT.
But since the codex states that there is no additional points cost for HWTs in an infantry squad, that should mean we get the HWT for 4pts. (otherwise it wouldnt need to state this since 6pts is still less then the 8pts we pay for the two initial guardsmen).

That leaves us with 9 models, 4pts each.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

He didn't say that you 'pay more than' 8 points for the team. He's saying that you buy the two Guardsman models at 4 points each, and then upgrade them to a Heavy Weapons Team at no cost.

The codex says that to determine the total points value of an army you add up the values of all models and their wargear.
So you pay for an infantry squad in its finalised composition, which is 8 guard models plus a HWT model "at no additional cost".

Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

 Ghaz wrote:
Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

Until you buy a heavy weapon team, which trades in two models for one more. Then it is 9.

Unless (10-2)+1 is 10. Then... I need reeducation I think.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

Until you buy a heavy weapon team, which trades in two models for one more. Then it is 9.

Unless (10-2)+1 is 10. Then... I need reeducation I think.

If you're using the older metal IG models, then it could still be 10 models (+1 for the heavy weapon itself).

And the closest is paying for 10 models and having 2 of them upgrade to a Heavy Weapons Team instead of thinking you only pay for 9 models.

 Ghaz wrote:
And the closest is paying for 10 models and having 2 of them upgrade to a Heavy Weapons Team instead of thinking you only pay for 9 models.

I mean, I understand why this was confusing with the index. The squad clearly consists of only 9 models but the point listing seems to say that the squad can only consist of 10. Fortunately, they added a note to the codex to address this issue. I really don't understand how people can read the note as not saying that you're paying less than 8 points for the team.

 Ghaz wrote:
And the closest is paying for 10 models and having 2 of them upgrade to a Heavy Weapons Team instead of thinking you only pay for 9 models.

But then you're only a nine model unit for things like the Grenadiers stratagem, capturing objectives (a big one), or anything else that counts numbers of models in a unit. I suppose you'd be safer from Demolisher cannons.

Still, you don't think that only having 9 models + heavy weapon is worse than the same unit but with 10 models + heavy weapon? The latter (while more vulnerable to Demolisher cannons specifically) outscores the other one on objective, makes better use of orders and stratagems (has an extra model) and is less vulnerable to multi-damage shooting.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

Until you buy a heavy weapon team, which trades in two models for one more. Then it is 9.

Unless (10-2)+1 is 10. Then... I need reeducation I think.

Well actually, there is a point here.
The rules for understrength units say we must pay for at least the minimum amount of models even if including less.

Soulless wrote:
The rules for understrength units say we must pay for at least the minimum amount of models even if including less.

Incorrect. As per the Rulebook errata:

If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit, even though it contains fewer models. If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with). An understrength unit still takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment. If you are playing a matched play game, you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment.

 Ghaz wrote:
And the closest is paying for 10 models and having 2 of them upgrade to a Heavy Weapons Team instead of thinking you only pay for 9 models.

But you dont "pay" for anything, you calculate the final cost of your army and this is done when all things are placed, replaced, upgraded and so on.
At that point, the infantry squad in question consists of 9 models. You dont take into account the initial two guardmen that make up the squad, but only account for what is present when the squad is complete.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Soulless wrote:
The rules for understrength units say we must pay for at least the minimum amount of models even if including less.

Incorrect. As per the Rulebook errata:

If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit, even though it contains fewer models. If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with). An understrength unit still takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment. If you are playing a matched play game, you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment.

Aah thanks for correcting me on that one

Soulless wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

Until you buy a heavy weapon team, which trades in two models for one more. Then it is 9.

Unless (10-2)+1 is 10. Then... I need reeducation I think.

Well actually, there is a point here.
The rules for understrength units say we must pay for at least the minimum amount of models even if including less.

First, it's the datasheet that "will describe how many models make up the unit". 1 Sergeant, 7 Guardsmen, and 1 HWT is obviously not an understrength unit -- this is exactly the amount that you're supposed to have in the unit according to its datasheet.

Second, surely if you're going to make this argument you've got to let the person field a regular-strength unit, right?

I think if we're insisting on this sort of reading, then the only reasonable way to square all of this is to read "Two other Guardsmen may form a Heavy Weapons Team" in the same way that we read wargear options like "Three models must replace their lasgun with an item from the Special Weapons list." It's not the three models exchanging one lasgun, and it's not both Guardsmen together forming a single HWT. Just as with the members of the Special Weapons Squad exchanging "their lasgun", it's each model individually doing it. So even if we take advantage of this option, our Infantry Squad still has 10 models: 1 Sergeant, 7 Guardsmen, and 2 HWTs. Now, I'm not endorsing this reading, but it seems to make a lot more sense than this weird "the squad has 9 models for some purposes but 10 for others" reading.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Soulless wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Problem is a Infantry Squad is 10 models, not 8 or 9.

Until you buy a heavy weapon team, which trades in two models for one more. Then it is 9.

Unless (10-2)+1 is 10. Then... I need reeducation I think.

Well actually, there is a point here.
The rules for understrength units say we must pay for at least the minimum amount of models even if including less.

First, it's the datasheet that "will describe how many models make up the unit". 1 Sergeant, 7 Guardsmen, and 1 HWT is obviously not an understrength unit -- this is exactly the amount that you're supposed to have in the unit according to its datasheet.

Second, surely if you're going to make this argument you've got to let the person field a regular-strength unit, right?

I think if we're insisting on this sort of reading, then the only reasonable way to square all of this is to read "Two other Guardsmen may form a Heavy Weapons Team" in the same way that we read wargear options like "Three models must replace their lasgun with an item from the Special Weapons list." It's not the three models exchanging one lasgun, and it's not both Guardsmen together forming a single HWT. Just as with the members of the Special Weapons Squad exchanging "their lasgun", it's each model individually doing it. So even if we take advantage of this option, our Infantry Squad still has 10 models: 1 Sergeant, 7 Guardsmen, and 2 HWTs. Now, I'm not endorsing this reading, but it seems to make a lot more sense than this weird "the squad has 9 models for some purposes but 10 for others" reading.

Im not arguing that at all, I am only trying to sort this out to get everything correct. I was only noting that the rulebook does say something about the subject, and was quickly corrected with reference to erratas so take it easy will ya.

An Infantry Squad is ten men.

It may be comprised of 10 models (no HWT) or 9 models (HWT, a single mode with two Wounds).

Neither breaks anything or treats anything strangely. It's just how it is.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Fortunately, they added a note to the codex to address this issue. I really don't understand how people can read the note as not saying that you're paying less than 8 points for the team.

There're 10 soldiers in a squad, each one costs 4 points. Now two of these guys bring a heavy weapon along for 5 points. That makes a total of 45 points, but I don't have to pay extra for having the ability to bring a heavy weapon if I chose to do so - I only pay extra for the heavy weapon itself.

You don't pay extra, but you also don't pay less.
Otherwise I'd like to know how you end up with 36 points plus the heavy weapon.

* Why is one guardsmen still being paid for?
* Why aren't you paying just 32 + the Heavy Weapon now?
* Why would you assume that yours is the proper interpretation when a squad with a mortar now is cheaper than a squad without?

I won't claim that it's the best interpretation for a rules-as-written argument, but it's a pretty good pick for rules-as-intended, and it doesn't necessarily contradict the rules as written.

nekooni wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Fortunately, they added a note to the codex to address this issue. I really don't understand how people can read the note as not saying that you're paying less than 8 points for the team.

There're 10 soldiers in a squad, each one costs 4 points. Now two of these guys bring a heavy weapon along for 5 points. That makes a total of 45 points, but I don't have to pay extra for having the ability to bring a heavy weapon if I chose to do so - I only pay extra for the heavy weapon itself.

You don't pay extra, but you also don't pay less.
Otherwise I'd like to know how you end up with 36 points plus the heavy weapon.

* Why is one guardsmen still being paid for?
* Why aren't you paying just 32 + the Heavy Weapon now?
* Why would you assume that yours is the proper interpretation when a squad with a mortar now is cheaper than a squad without?

I won't claim that it's the best interpretation for a rules-as-written argument, but it's a pretty good pick for rules-as-intended, and it doesn't necessarily contradict the rules as written.

I understand how people are reading it. It just seems to flatly contradict the obvious intent of the note. Again, no one seems to be able to make a case for why someone might have thought you had to pay "extra", whereas obviously lots of people were (and weirdly still are) under the impression that you pay for an additional model that isn't actually in the squad.

I don't understand your question about paying for a Guardsman -- you seem to be the one advocating paying for an extra model. There are 9 models in the squad. The point listing says that the squad costs 4 points per model. That's 36 points.

Edit: While a squad with a mortar is not actually cheaper than a squad without (a mortar HWT is 9 points vs 8 for two Guardsmen), this is weird, yes. That's why there was confusion with the index. But the note seems pretty clear. And obviously the codex elsewhere values HWTs at less than the cost of two Guardsmen -- look at the Heavy Weapons Squad.

To make clear my position: I think it was always probably RAW that a squad with a HWT is 36 points. With the index, I had believed that RAI was 40. Now it seems clear that RAI is also 36.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I understand how people are reading it. It just seems to flatly contradict the obvious intent of the note.

But that's not the obvious intent of the note to me. The note - to me - tells me that I don't have to ADD the cost for the Heavy Weapons Squad. I still pay for the 10 soldiers though. It might be they didn't think this through with how (or more precisely - when) you calculate the points.

Again, no one seems to be able to make a case for why someone might have thought you had to pay "extra", whereas obviously lots of people were (and weirdly still are) under the impression that you pay for an additional model that isn't actually in the squad.

Because I'm thinking in Guardsmen and "this makes sense" and not exclusively in abstract terms. That's why.

let me clarify: I do see your point in how you calculate points cost, I just don't see your point in claiming that it's obvious and the only possible interpretation, and that it's kind of ridiculous to think anything else than 36 points + weapon.
I'm quite happy with the performance of my Guard, I won't argue with my opponent over like 20 points or something in my list. If he insists that those points are not required I'll slap a Dozer blade or some extra stormbolters onto something and that's it.

So, to be clear, you're saying that absent the note you think you'd have to pay 40 points for the squad plus some points for the HWT, and then you only get 9 models? How many points would the HWT be?

This just strikes me as really implausible. AFAIK literally no one suggested that we ought to read the index this way. It seems to me like motivated reasoning to make it so that the note says to do the thing it's specifically telling you not to do, by concocting this interpretation that no one's ever actually held which the note can be taken as rejecting.

Dionysodorus wrote:
So, to be clear, you're saying that absent the note you think you'd have to pay 40 points for the squad plus some points for the HWT, and then you only get 9 models? How many points would the HWT be?

No, that's not what I said. I don't think the game would work different without that note, it's just a clarification for people that wonder if they had to add the HWT cost (as found on the HWT itself).