Are Defilers this rare atm?

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**vaklor4**

I recently got a hold of a boxed Defiler for myself at a local store, but outside of that one box (which was an older one collecting dust I may add) ive never seen a Defiler both for sale or in a collection in the region that I play.

Has this model really been out of print that long, or is it just not that sought after?

**the_scotsman**

The problem is more that it's been complete garbage since 5th edition.

There are 40k players in my club who were born after the Defiler was last viable.

Edition after edition, GW has looked at it, its bewildering array of unfocused weaponry, thrown up their hands and said "IIiiiii dunno, maybe give it crappy ballistic skill and no special rules and make it as expensive as a land raider?"

**Elbows**

I agree, it's not a very strong unit - I was going to build one using some Dust Tactics models, but then they shifted versions and the cheap ones disappeared....and the GW model is fuggin' heinous, soooo, probably won't happen.

**Arkaine**

Defiler used to be like our centerpiece model. The years have not been kind to it. We have better ones now.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The problem was that it's loadout was completely at odds with itself for many editions. And it's all because of the Battle Cannon. See it's Daemon Engine status meant that it wants to be in combat, but if you moved you couldn't use the battle cannon which, at the time, was the only way to field one in CSM. It's other weapons had a similar problem in that they also couldn't fire if the battle cannon fired. And even when you could fire them, the two weapons couldn't agree on what they wanted to hit; one was always anti-armor and the other was always anti-infantry. They were usable in 3.5 edition because they were cheap, meaning you could just ignore whichever weapons you didn't want to use, but in later editions the defiler got more expensive without really solving this problem. Which ended up feeling like you're paying for everything and only get to use one or two. It doesn't help that the Soul Grinder, what is essentially a Defiler with the Ordinance removed from it's battle cannon (essentially solving this issue) and gained +1 AV, was introduced in the Daemon-CSM split, and is just so much better for much less points.

**vaklor4**

I did look at past editions and yeah that thing WAS hot garbage. But it seems like this edition it is fairly cheap, costing as much as a Vindicator or a pricy Helbrute. With its point shift do you think it could be viable as a centrepiece in a mostly melee army?

**the_scotsman**

Short answer: Eh.

Long answer: Bleh.

it's still kind of garbage for exactly the same reasons: it pays for a bunch of ranged weaponry it can't use, it's slow as heck at getting into combat, and it's just kind of universally outperformed by more specialized options, like an all-melee helbrute or an all-shooting Forgefiend. Your battlecannon can be fired on the move at least, but it's still never going to hit anything at 5+ to hit. You can load it for pure melee other than the battlecannon with the flail, but it's solidly outperformed by a scourge/fist brute, which does very similar damage at less cost and can be defensively or offensively buffed up with Legion tactics.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I wouldn't use it as a centerpiece, but as a Distraction that will scare the gak straight out of your opponent's rectum (especially if he doesn't know about it) then it works. everything on it is scary as hell and it can fire all of it on the move (albeit with the accuracy of an ork) so it can just blunder straight into the enemy force and probably draw an absurd amount of firepower. Just don't expect to actually kill anything; it's there to be a distraction and to draw fire from things like Zerks and actual CC helbrutes.

**the_scotsman**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I wouldn't use it as a centerpiece, but as a Distraction that will scare the gak straight out of your opponent's rectum (especially if he doesn't know about it) then it works. everything on it is scary as hell and it can fire all of it on the move (albeit with the accuracy of an ork) so it can just blunder straight into the enemy force and probably draw an absurd amount of firepower. Just don't expect to actually kill anything; it's there to be a distraction and to draw fire from things like Zerks and actual CC helbrutes.

"scary as hell" is a bit of an understatement when you see what other models are packing for armament.

Look at the Repulsor's loadout, and a single battlecannon and reaper autocannon look pretty quaint.

"Oh, you're only rolling three dice? With BS5? Guess I can ignore that..."

**ZebioLizard2**

It's funny that the Defiler in this edition is possibly the best shape it's been in a long while.

**auticus**

Its offensive output is ... laughable. Thats why you don't see them ever. In a game where you want to max out on ranged dice, there is no room for a defiler at its current cost combined with its low offensive output.

**chimeara**

I was under the assumption that 14 wounds and an array of guns was pretty decent and I used mine the other day. It got blown off the table before my first turn. So it definitely works as a centerpiece to absorb shots.

**Elbows**

Chimaera brings up a good point - it's size and nature of appearance does make it a fire magnet --- even if it's not a very good unit. I have seen them a few times locally and they always get a bit of hostile attention.

Is the plague hulk version any better?

**Huron black heart**

I've had one for a few years, still on the sprue in the box. Every time I think of building it there's something better or more useable that needs painting or building.
They look cool but don't really fit any role, apart from perhaps as a distraction as mentioned above, and even then only against those who don't realise it isn't that good.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's essentially like the Carnifex with Rending claws; designed to make your opponent to make irrational decisions unless they actually know how gak it is and ignore it.

**Elbows**

Also worth noting it was 16 power in the index...dropped to 11 in the codex which is pretty substantial. Don't know what the points drop was.

**chimeara**

Don't know what the Index version was but a stock Defiler is 201 pts In codex.

**Elbows**

Stock 216 points...so not much (unless weaponry dropped a bit).

EDIT: This is 216 before weaponry...so yeah that's probably a good points drop?

PSS: Being a Daemon Vehicle --- it does benefit from the Daemonforge stratagem (1 CP) = reroll hits and wounds for a phase...so that's something? (shrug).

**Nym**

You can actually make a pretty decent CC Defiler for 181pts (Scourge / Twin Heavy Bolter).

Move, Advance, Warptime and try to get in your opponent's face turn 1. Use in combination with another big fire magnet, like a Heldrake. If it survives turn 1, enjoy.

*NEVER* stop to shoot your Twin heavy bolter or Battlecannon, it's a waste. Focus on trying to kill multi-wound models.

**Insectum7**

I used three of them for a while while I was playing Black Legion this edition. Basically a fire base castle army with Abaddon giving re-rolls to hit for everybody. Three of them together proved nicely shooty, and quite tough. In most of my games they did quite well, adding good firepower to the rest of my gunline, and strong CC ability against anything that got close. That list came in 2nd at a locals tournament.

Played a 5000 point game where my opponent brought a Falchion. The Defilers were big fat targets for his anti-tank firepower, and they were all dead by the end of turn two. In that game they were distraction targets, keeping the heavy firepower away from more important things like Obliterators and Terminators.

**techsoldaten**

My impression of Defilers is pretty positive, having faced them in a number of games. Seems like they always take out a Predator or Helbrute on their own and they are good at defending the battlefield.

I suggest thinking about them beyond points / stats and consider what role they play in your army.

**MechaEmperor7000**

my own experience is that whenever I field one, the opponent goes to almost comical lengths to blow it up. works for me, since it means less things peppering my actual important troops (like zerkers).

**Champion of Slaanesh**

On paper it looks pretty decent. Its survivability and offensive power can be buffed via dark hereticus.

**Stormonu**

My son uses one in his army all the time. It took me a few games to learn how to deal with it, and until I did it certainly wrecked any infantry I tried to use.

Overall though, it's a middling performer - it can take on infantry or vehicles at range and can hold its own in melee. It's just not particularly good at any of the three, and easily becomes a magnet for all sorts of enemy fire - moreso because its an annoyance than a full-bore threat.

**Arkaine**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
On paper it looks pretty decent. Its survivability and offensive power can be buffed via dark hereticus.

In practice, they have 4+ BS and hit on 5+ if they move at all because Defilers don't have Power of the Machine Spirit. So most of the game they just sit there and fire like artillery. Poorly.

I wouldn't use them unless Abaddon was nearby or you had a lot of CP for Daemonforge stratagems.

**Azuza001**

2 defilers and Kharn walking up the field in a

D k D
R R

formation with some beserkers in rhinos work great in my experience. Your opponent can't ignore the defilers then with kharn giving them reroll failed to hit, and that 5+ really is more effective when you reroll 1-4. And the opponent has to decide where to spend their anti tank weapons, the tuna cans of beserkers or the crab walkers of defiley doom. Plus there is still kharn there. The only down side is kharn is a 1" ability so he has to stick close to those defilers.

**Kap'n Krump**

Take it from an ork, anything that gets D6 shots that hits on 5+ is NEVER worth taking.

Though, would the defilier be worth taking if it ignored heavy weapon penalties?

**chimeara**

If it had better bs and ws with machine spirit it would be awesome.

**Daedalus81**

I dunno...wounding land raiders on 2s is nice. And invulnerable with regen. And 14 wounds.

**NurglesR0T**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
Take it from an ork, anything that gets D6 shots that hits on 5+ is NEVER worth taking.

Though, would the defilier be worth taking if it ignored heavy weapon penalties?

I've always thought all Daemon Engines should have some form of Machine Spirit. 4+ BS is fine, but should be able to move and shoot with no penalty.